Alcohol
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Dear Edip,
I thank you for taking the time to write a well thought out post on the subject...Please see my responces to the points raised.
The root of the Arabic word we translated as "intoxicants" is KhaMaRa and it means "to cover." If its first letter is read with Ha (9) rather than Kh (600), it then means Red, referring to red wine (For the usage of Hamar in the Bible, see Deuteronomy 3214; Isaiah 272 Ezra 69; 722; Daniel 51-2,4). We prefer its common pronunciation. Some translations, while accepting the same pronunciation, have erroneously restricted the meaning of the word by translating it as "wine" or "liquor." Consumption of all intoxicants, be they alcoholic beverages, drugs, crack, cocaine, heroin, etc. are covered by this prohibition. The harm inflicted to individual and society by alcoholic beverages, drugs and gambling is enormous. See 590-91.
I am not a Bible fan as you know for a) the Quran overrides the Bible (see 54, and b) the Bible is distorted to say the least in its transmission of the words of Jesus Christ. You have used the word "prohibition" which is clearly not the case with the Quran - which is what we are concerned with.
The Quran does not prohibit alcoholic beverages or drugs legally, and thus does not suggest any punishment for mere usage of alcohol. Hadith books ordaining severe penalties for the consumption of alcohol contradict the Quranic jurisprudence, since people's personal choices, how bad they may be, cannot be penalized by society. Society can only punish acts that are direct or proximate causes of harm to another person or persons. Besides, putting limitations on individual rights wastes society's resources, increases corruption, hypocrisy, and underground criminal activities, and other crimes. Legally banning and criminalizing the consumption and production of alcohol, a liquid drug, at the turn of 20th century proved to be a bad idea. Similarly, criminalizing the consumption of other drugs is also a bad idea. Society's resources should be used for the prevention and rehabilitation of these kinds of socially and psychologically caused addictions.
We are in agreement to the above.
However, the Quran prohibits intoxicants to individuals for various reasons, including moral (the designer and creator of your body and mind asks you not to intentionally harm the body lent to you for a lifetime), intellectual (the greatest gift you have is your brain and its power to make good judgment, so do not choose to be stupid or more stupid than you already are!) and pragmatic (you and your society will suffer grave loss of health, wealth, happiness, and many lives; do not con-tribute to the production and acceleration of such a destructive boomerang).
I disagree. You have again used the word "prohinbit" which is not found in God's words on the subject.
The common justification for using alcohol, "I drink in moderation," is not convincing, since almost all those who suffer from alcohol abuse or its consequences such as drunk driving, had started with moderation, sip by sip, and gradually increased the dosage because of peers or uncontrollable events in their lives. Today's moderate drinker may be tomorrow's addict. Why take the chance, especially when it is not a necessity? Stupidity in moderation is not something to be justified, let alone glorified. Rational people should not subject themselves and the society to the grave risks inflicted by alcohol. Besides, moral people should not support an industry that hurts a big segment of the society. The anecdotal "research" results that are occasionally advertised by the media claiming that the usage of wine or alcohol in moderation to be healthy for the heart is suspect, since beer and wine companies are major supporters of the media through commercials.
Why do you assume a person needs to provide a justifiation? If a thing has not been prohibited by our Lord, then it is permissible and no excuses are nessesary for a person who decides to endulge in such act. The argument of industry or other commercial interests is nullified as a person may create wine on his/her own which has been the case for centuries before the industrial revolution and before the advent of corporate power.
Many correlations are ignored by the so-called researchers. For instance, studying the impact of wine consumption on health, without taking into account the income, health insurance, diet, lifestyle, genetic make up, and environment of wine-drinkers, will not produce a reliable cause-and-effect relationship. Interestingly, some of the health benefits attributed to alcohol have been listed for grape juice, though in higher doses. Even if alcohol or any other drug had some economic, social and even health benefits, the Quran reminds us of the proven fact that their harms outweigh their benefits.
The medical argument has never been raised, we are talking about permissibe vs. restricted, which you have already agreed is not in dispute as alcohol carried no legal ramification according to the laws of the Quran.
The Bible contains contradictory messages regarding the use of wine or alcoholic beverages. The Hebrew equivalent of the Quranic word Sakar (1667; 443) is Shekar (intoxicant) and it is criticized by the Old Testament (Leviticus 109; Judges 134, Isaiah 287; Isaiah 511; 249; 299; 5612; Joel 33; Amos 66; Pr 201; 316; Micah 211). Wine impairs the health, judgment and memory (1 Samuel 2537; Hosea 411; Peter 314-5), inflames the passions (Isaiah 511), and leads to sorrow, contention and remorse (Peter 2329-32). Wine also cheers God and man (Judges 913; Zechariah 917; Psalms 10415; Esther 110; Ecclesiastes 1019), and strengthens the body (2Samuel 162; Song 25).
The Bible also makes out that Jesus is the only way to salvation - what credibility do you place on such text?
Though the consumption of wine is occasionally approved and even encouraged through the daily sacrifice (Exodus 2940-41), with the offering of the first-fruits (Leviticus 2313), and with various other sacrifices (Numbers 154-10), the Bible also contains some prohibitions. For in-stance it prohibits wine for the Rechabites (Jeremiah 351-19), the Nazirites (Judges 137; Luke 115; 733), and the priests when engaged in their services (Leviticus 101, 9-11). It also lists wine as offerings of idolatry (Deuteronomy 3237-3.
The Hebrew Bible uses about a dozen words to refer to different kinds of alcoholic beverages (Ashisha, Asis, Hemer, Enabh, Mesekh, Tirosh, Sobhe, Shekar, Yekebh, Shemarim, Mesek). However, some Biblical scholars limit the application of this prohibition by translating the Shekar as "strong drink." The majority of Christian sects have no religious inhibition regarding the consumption of alcohol. Easton, a Jesus-worshipping tri-theist, writes "Our Lord miraculously supplied wine at the marriage feast in Cana of Galilee (John 21-11)."Bible study - no comment.
The New Testament also contains warnings for people against the excess consumption of intoxicants (Luke 2134; Romans 1313; Ephesians 518; 1 Timothy 38; Titus 17). But, in the same volume, we also see wine moving from lip to lip as a sacred drink. According to the Gospels, Jesus turns water to wine (John 446) and wine has a prominent place in Passover and the Last Supper. While Mark 1523 serves Jesus wine in his last moments, Matthew 2734 serves him vinegar. It is obvious that the Gospel authors could not differentiate between vinegar and wine.
Bible study - no comment.
The contradictory position regarding wine or alcoholic beverages reaches absurdity when Jesus allegedly declared wine to be memorials of his body and blood. The Book of Revelation, a theo-fictional nightmare, mixes wine with the numerically defined beast and hell fire.
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Revelations 149-11).
You are here agreeing that the Bible contains nonsencical statement - I have nothing to add.
It seems that the words grape juice, vine-gar, literal wine, and metaphorical wine, may all be mixed up in the Bible due to some intentional tampering during its oral or written transmission, and the errors committed during translations of other translations.
Let us go back to the discussion on the Quran - which is what we are concerned with. If the Quran says that alcohol is to be avoided, then I will not be in a position, nor would I dare, to argue against God's law. But if the Quran does not say such - which is the case, then I cannot agree to limit or prohibit or restrict that which God has made lawful.
Prohibition of alcohol as you have rightly pointed out, is a complete failure, and creates a society of hypocrates who will consume alcohol regardless creating, as the case with the US, an organized bootlegging and illegal trade that causes more harm than allowing the consumption to be left to the individual - under the regulation of the law.
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Dear Asana,
Why I?m not surprised that you didn?t answer my question in light of the 733?Because if you wanted to discuss the word sin/ithm in that verse then you had to admit that yes God has used the exact word there and made sins Haram.
I answered exactly the point you raised (and which you did a good job of highlighting in bold and font size and color), yet it seems you were not satisfied wiht my answer and are saying I should have answered more!?
Not really .I wasn?t expecting you agree with me?.I only wanted you and those who know Arabic to tell me what God means by using the exact word as sin in those two verses(2219,733)?.And I was sure that you wouldn't answer it and I was proved to be right.
You just said what you?d like to say as your own personal opinion enlightening me about the usage of the word of sin.Interesting that you say this. My answer was exactly proportionate to the question raised - yet, because it did not meet your preconcieved notion on the subject, it has become unnaceptable. What am I to say?
I can see a great fallacy in your understanding/logic dear Layth .If one eats meat of pig should the person observe contact prayer/Salat or not? If not why not, if yes then why ?because according to your logic, the person committed an act of Haram.
God commands the believers what to do and not to do .Does that mean if a believer commit some sin should God command him/her not to observe Salat ? He askes the one who used the toxicant not to observer Salat because of the state of the mind to know what he/she says.The user of the intoxicant might utter blasphemy instead of praising/glorifying God.Isn?t God Merciful that ask them not to observe Salat ?Or was His intention that to endorse the using intoxicant for the believers is fine?Which one is?
Let me remind you of your claim. You stated that the word "Ith" being used in the subject of alcohol is a violation of God's commands as the belivers are to avoid "Ithm". I simply pointed out that alcohol in itself has never been called "Ithm" but that the verse says "In Them is Ithm" which gives a drastically differnt conclusion than that which you had raised.
Contradiction. God mentions four satanic acts in one verse after each other (590).And He asks us to avoid them. Would you think it?s ok if we commit a little bit of Idolatry? If not why not? If Idolatry as small as atom is a sin and we should avoid it then why not intoxicant and gambling can't be sin especially when God uses the word of sin for it?
God's Book has no contradictions. The object to be avoided is "Satan" (IjtanibuHu) and not the items as you are attempting to make out. Will you still insist on making the Quran say what it is not saying?
You?re right. nobody said a thing about gambling and game of chance but nobody said about altars of idols too that we must avoid ? .nobody said one word that no matter how small is an act of idolatry it is a sin and is Haram and must be avoided too! And yet God used one verb for four satanic acts to be avoided.
This comment was adressed to all the Internet doctors who are suddenl providing medical claims as to why alcohol should be avoided...I am simply pointing out the obvious, that the risk of such items is related to specific items (causing strife, forgetting the rememberance of God) and not to the myriad of self made excuses that were being posted.
Fallacy again. In 1667 God mentions making of intoxicants and good provision from palms and grapes? If intoxicant was good provision then why mentioning of ?good provision? there? He could have only said that you make good provision from Palms and grapes then we all knew that intoxicants are good provision too.
"You make wine and a good provision. In that is a sign for people who comprehend"
Can it get any clearer than this? God not only acknolweldges that wine is being made from these fruits, but He calls is a "sign" for people who comprehend!
Wowwwwwwwww! Surely that wine is not intoxicant as in our human concept like the water there is not polluted too.
So, now you are saying that the "khamr" in Heaven is not real "khamr" (fruit juce I guess!). Naming it "khamr" then becomes a msitake on God's part since it will not "cover" as "khamr" inherintly does - you are clutching at straw shere.
God does not leave the believers live in gray zone....His truth is either black or white....Those who believe using intoxicants is ok since God mentioned of some benefit in them live in gray zone which is man-made.
The only grey-zone is the one you have constructed on your own...A believer can be intoxicated and still be a believer (see 443) - will you dispute this obvious fact?
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Let us go back to the discussion on the Quran - which is what we are concerned with. If the Quran says that alcohol is to be avoided, then I will not be in a position, nor would I dare, to argue against God's law. But if the Quran does not say such - which is the case, then I cannot agree to limit or prohibit or restrict that which God has made lawful.
590
591If you read the verses above it's clear that Allah tell you to avoid intoxicant ( = avoid it) as for the ban i agree with you banning it is a complete failure but no where in the Quran does Allah say to ban it but still intoxicant should be avoided by choice.
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However, the Quran prohibits intoxicants to individuals for various reasons, including moral (the designer and creator of your body and mind asks you not to intentionally harm the body lent to you for a lifetime), intellectual (the greatest gift you have is your brain and its power to make good judgment, so do not choose to be stupid or more stupid than you already are!) and pragmatic (you and your society will suffer grave loss of health, wealth, happiness, and many lives; do not con-tribute to the production and acceleration of such a destructive boomerang).I disagree. You have again used the word "prohibit" which is not found in God's words on the subject.
- forbid somebody to stop somebody from doing something by passing a law or rule that forbids it
- prevent somebody to prevent somebody from doing something
Grand Qur'aan has prevented from using it and questioned whether you will hold back/avoid it.
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590
591If you read the verses above it's clear that Allah tell you to avoid intoxicant ( = avoid it) as for the ban i agree with you banning it is a complete failure but no where in the Quran does Allah say to ban it but still intoxicant should be avoided.
I agree with TheStranger. I don't see a clear ban on intoxicants and gambling but rather a Strong Recommendation by God to avoid or to abstain from intoxicants and gambling since these tools can be used by the devil as means to be divert us from the remembrance of God. But then again when God says something should be avoided does this mean it is forbidden??? This is where the confusion arises.
Brother Edip made some good points as well. One point which made me reconsider my stance is ....
There is not a magic word, a single word to forbid a thing or act. If God tells us that something is from Satan and recommends us to stay away from it, then it is forbidden. I cannot understand how people can deduce permission from such a strong divine injunction.
I'm very hesitate to say that intoxicants are forbidden because if one reads 590-91 it sounds more like recommendation rather than a clear prohibition.
590 O you who acknowledge, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.
591 The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the contact prayer. Will you then desist?
In any case , as I have said before an intelligent believer would accept God's recommendation and not vice versa. I personally would not and never recommend any person to consume intoxicants because the great harm that it can do to the body and society, if abused. These are some of the things which we need to take into consideration before we engage in gambling , intoxicants , sacraments and fortunes. Remember that all of these practices are placed under the same level as intoxicants which why I would strongly recommend for others not to engage in such practices. The Quran makes a firm stance that these practices are dangerous for a believer to engage in. If we are wise we would listen to what God is recommending.
This other issue about drinking in moderation is questionable since yes there are people who can drink in moderation (so I've heard) but there some who can't because alcohol is an additive substance. This is one of the main dangers of alcohol. If one is not careful or mindful enough one can end up in a state of drunkenness. And trust me you don't want to ever be in a state of drunkenness since you can do foolish and dangerous things which would not only endanger yourself but others as well.
As believers, one of our main goals should be to avoid the Satan at all costs. Why should we engage in practices that seek to sever the bond we have with our Creator???
591 The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the contact prayer. Will you then desist?
If we wish to have the best chance of being successful it would be wise to abstain from such practices indefinitely since these tools can be used against us if we are not careful.
Peace,
Kevin. -
"I cannot understand how people can deduce permission from such a strong divine injunction."
Indeed.
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I cannot understand where you see "such a strong divine injunction" considering that there are much stronger divine injunctions in quran and the laws of khamr pale in comparison. 443 doesn't for example say believers should clean all the blood off your clothes when you have finished your murdering spree. Or when you have come back from the brothel, make sure to have a shower. I can understand it only from a perspective of strong conservatism. To be honest I will not yield to anyone clinging to any system other than that in quran itself. Bottom line, there are limits that shall not be exceeded and any who do so are transgressors, whichever side they are on.
"but still intoxicant should be avoided by choice" - "should be" "by choice" do not belong in the same sentence. I agree that being drunk or drinking at all, gambling, etc are things that believers 99% would not do but that does not mean for a second it should be forbidden.
Believers are NOT average people. Believers do not have sex before marriage. Believers do not steal. Believers do not ever give less than full measure when dealing. Believers do not murder, they fast, they are humble, they do not let fear of people/life get in the way of fear of ALLAH, they follow no code except the codes of ALLAH. Tell me if you have met a single "moderate drinker" that you stereotype with these characteristics because I haven't! Most people in society will lie, cheat, steal, kill, with sure pride and they will drink to excess. Their life is already one of excess and the excess carries through to intoxicating. A believer does not live in extremes. Saying "look at the disbelievers" for reasons why alcohol should be banned is like saying "look at the disbelievers" for reasons why guns should be banned even as quran prescribes fighting.
There is a time and place for everything. Not for a second can you compare one who looks to the judgement to one who wanders without purpose. Every single reason behind their actions is different.
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I cannot understand where you see "such a strong divine injunction"
Simple imperative was not the choice.
The Imperative verb is of Form-VIII. Its affix "ta" indicates stronger role of the subject in doing the action and signifies more effort performed by the subject. Therefore the injunction is "you people must avoid that Rijis".
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Therefore the injunction is "you people must avoid that Rijis".
Thanks
What do you make of the comparison to 54 and 2222, especially 2222?
We must be aware of the relevance paradox "The relevance paradox describes an attempt to gather information relevant to a decision, which fails when the elimination of distracting or unnecessary information also excludes information that is later realised to be crucial"
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Thanks
What do you make of the comparison to 54 and 2222, especially 2222?
2222 That needs still stronger determination and effort to desist performing "that act" particularly at "heated moments". In view of Form-VIII imperative, I translated it
"For this reason therefore, you people consciously refrain/restrain-stay away "performing sexually-enter semen" with such of wives who are in the state of the Menstruation//Menstrual discharge period."2222
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Peace to you all,
What frustrates me when I read this thread is that the same questions keep getting posted over and over again as if they have not been adressed time and time again!
People who come into this with a preconcieved notion are only seeing what they want to see, reading what they want to read...
Our quest is for truth and standing firm to God's words, regardless of what the whole world may think or say...
Here are 2 questions that I will pose and I hope it will make some see what to others is crystal clear
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Can a person who is in a state of "intoxication/drunkeness" still be considered a "believer/mumin"? (see 443 for help)
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Do "believers/mumins" adhere fully to God's laws, never ignoring them, and only carrying out acts that He has permitted/allowed? (see 2573, 2451 for help)
If you have answered "yes" to both questions, then you will be able to understand all the verses on the subject with the light of this foundation...But if your answer is "no", then there is nothing else that can be said...
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Peace.
To many, intoxication is a spiritual thing. Christians have their alcohol, the rastafaris and sadhus have their hashish, the psychonauts have their entheogens. That doesn
t mean that they arent believers.But most agree that the negatives outweight the benefits. And drug use, doesn
t take you to heaven. "So wont you avoid it, so you will be successful."A more or less famous quote by a psychedelics user "Psycedelics may have taken me to the top of the mountain, but to live there, I have to make the trek, by foot."
You have to reach a mindstate that is joyful, without drugs. And if you have been godconscious for a longer time, any other state will be seen as a lower state, and not preferred.
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Here are 2 questions that I will pose and I hope it will make some see what to others is crystal clear
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Can a person who is in a state of "intoxication/drunkeness" still be considered a "believer/mumin"? (see 443 for help)
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Do "believers/mumins" adhere fully to God's laws, never ignoring them, and only carrying out acts that He has permitted/allowed? (see 2573, 2451 for help)
If you have answered "yes" to both questions, then you will be able to understand all the verses on the subject with the light of this foundation...But if your answer is "no", then there is nothing else that can be said...
What to say of ordinary believer, this might be done even by Muttaqeen. However, they are such
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And when such people committed an illicit sexual act, for the first time,
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or wronged their selves,
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they recalled/remembered Allah and for this reason sought pardon for their respective sins;
since/and who is there who could forgive sins except Allah.http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/3.135t.gif
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And they did not tie themselves/made it habit/repetitive action with what illicit act they had done; and they know -
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and He may reward those who who acted moderately and appropriately with magnanimity.
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And those people are those who consciously avoid committing major and grave sins and illicit sexual activities except the minor occasional lapses.5331-32
Read in conjunction
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2219
590
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I am not a Bible fan as you know for a) the Quran overrides the Bible (see 54,
In light of this statement, can you please provide an exegesis of 541-49, and 565-66? Thanks.
and b) the Bible is distorted to say the least in its transmission of the words of Jesus Christ.
Are you claiming that the Quran teaches this? Or that you have evidence that the words of Christ we have now, are different from what they were originally? Thanks.
P.S. It might be better to start a new thread, if you intend to answer.
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Peace,
Why I?m not surprised that you didn?t answer my question in light of the 733?Because if you wanted to discuss the word sin/ithm in that verse then you had to admit that yes God has used the exact word there and made sins Haram.
Ith'mun/harm is not sin and is the opposite of benefit and prohibited is causing al-ith'ma/the harm to others not the use of things which if used improperly may cause ith'mun/harm to oneself.
2219 they ask you about al-khamri/the inebriant and the gambling say in them both ith'mun/harm great and benefits to the mankind and the harm of them both greater from benefit of them both
733 say indeed what prohibited my Lord the immorality what apparent from it and what hidden wal-ith'ma/and the harm and the oppression without the truth and that you associate with The God what not He sent down in it authority and that you say on The God what not you know
Likewise difference between al-khamri and sakaran and it's not good to interchange them.
443 O you the ones who believe not go near the prayer and you sukr/intoxicated until you know what you are saying
1667 and from fruits the date palm and the grapes you take from it sakaran/intoxicant and provision good indeed in that surely a sign for people who reason
Thus people can make harmful things like intoxicants and helpful things (i.e. that benefit, cause temporary pain relief etc). The verses pertaining to the topic are like warning labels for drugs, drinks, and even the best foods which if over consumed can lead obesity and other health issues.
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Thanks
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Peace Noon dhe plume
Bad deeds are named as sin in Quran?.Whether you?d like to call a sin harm on anything else that?s your choice but God in 2219 says that there is great sin in intoxicants.
Thus people can make harmful things like intoxicants and helpful things (i.e. that benefit, cause temporary pain relief etc). The verses pertaining to the topic are like warning labels for drugs, drinks, and even the best foods which if over consumed can lead obesity and other health issues.
God doesn?t put warning label on things like that and leave it to us to make the decision whether we are capable to handle it rightlfully or not?God specifies that the sins of intoxicants overweight the benefit .And then in 590 commands us to avoid them?.How is it possible that Merciful God leaves us in bewilderedness zone to decide what to do when He precisely says that the sin in them is greater than their benefit that we might think and then commanding us avoiding them as we must avoid idolatry in 590?..Below is the list of occurrence of the word of sin .In none of them God labels them .God is reminding us what sins are and then He specifically calls the sin Haram in 733.
285
2173
2181
2182
2182
2188
2203
2203
2206
2219
2219
3178
420
448
450
4111
4112
4112
52
53
529
529
562
563
5107
6120
6120
733
2411
3358
4237
4912
5332
588
589
Asana
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Dear Layth
I answered exactly the point you raised (and which you did a good job of highlighting in bold and font size and color), yet it seems you were not satisfied wiht my answer and are saying I should have answered more!?
Interesting that you say this. My answer was exactly proportionate to the question raised - yet, because it did not meet your preconcieved notion on the subject, it has become unnaceptable. What am I to say?
You answered to two questions in the same manner! It looks like you didn?t have answer to them!
I am not looking for satisfaction by your answers. I?m looking for the Truth of God to be shined?I submit to God no matter what .It has no any effects on me whether it?s forbidden or not .Let me remind you of your claim. You stated that the word "Ith" being used in the subject of alcohol is a violation of God's commands as the belivers are to avoid "Ithm". I simply pointed out that alcohol in itself has never been called "Ithm" but that the verse says "In Them is Ithm" which gives a drastically differnt conclusion than that which you had raised.
You mean when God says there is sin in some things(2219...590) it means that we can ignore what God says by takeing things in our own hands to see whether we?re capable in handling it or not. Is that why you?re implying?!
God's Book has no contradictions. The object to be avoided is "Satan" (IjtanibuHu) and not the items as you are attempting to make out. Will you still insist on making the Quran say what it is not saying?
In your opinion according to your statement how should we suppose avoid Satan?
It looks like according to you one can drink or gamble but at the same time can remember God?It looks like you take the verse conditionally if only one can behave moderately not in excess while God command us to avoid them no matter what kind of logic we come up with it?.Shouldn't God's commands to be taken as ?heard and obeyed? not challenging Him by wishfully thinking that we can handle things?.?Those who challenge God by thinking that they can make decision by being in control take God?s commands in vain?.And that?s exactly why we are here on this earth to decide who is our Master, our ego/Satan or God,who is in control,us or God.
Those who think that they can control themselves by drinking alcohol moderately or gambling a little bit not only violate God?s command by not avoiding them but also causeing that God takes away His supports , leaving them in their wishful thought of controlling which means sending them astray.One can gamble and at the same time Praises God .In this manner the person hasn?t forgotten God but is that God means by avoiding those acts? In this manner God hasn?t be forgotten and one can say God was wrong! Glory be to God, He is above that to command us in vain.
This comment was adressed to all the Internet doctors who are suddenl providing medical claims as to why alcohol should be avoided...I am simply pointing out the obvious, that the risk of such items is related to specific items (causing strife, forgetting the rememberance of God) and not to the myriad of self made excuses that were being posted.
And I wanted to highlight there that Idolatry and intoxicants are in the same boat!. If one think can pass the boundary by committing idolatry by not avoiding it then can use intoxicant a little bit too as some understand for its benefit.
"You make wine and a good provision. In that is a sign for people who comprehend"
Can it get any clearer than this? God not only acknolweldges that wine is being made from these fruits, but He calls is a "sign" for people who comprehend!
The sign is for the intelligent to be seen we can make out of good things bad things to harm ourselves too. We can commit sin by eating things that God reminded us not to eat.
So, now you are saying that the "khamr" in Heaven is not real "khamr" (fruit juce I guess!). Naming it "khamr" then becomes a msitake on God's part since it will not "cover" as "khamr" inherintly does - you are clutching at straw shere.
Are you sure dear Layth I?m clutching at straw here? Then why God asks the drunken not to observer Salat?
When the brain doesn't function properly by using intoxicants is in a state of ?sukara?.
BTW are you saying that the wine in Paradise is polluted too as on earth where God says according to you there is harm in them? I hope you can see the fallacy of your logic here.
The only grey-zone is the one you have constructed on your own...A believer can be intoxicated and still be a believer (see 443) - will you dispute this obvious fact
?A believer commit sin too?Are you disputing that it?s possible a believer miss his/her Salat too and yet to be called a believer?
Glory be to God that asks a drunken by not committing second sin by observing Salat where he/she can blasphemies too or hurt oneself through the motions of prayer etc?a believer never miss her/his prayer?.Once missed it, it can?t be substituted again?And isn?t a punishment from God by not making an exist to the drunken to substitute the missing Salat/s? Are you still would like to insist on that a drunken hasn?t committed a sin? Wow.
May God enlighten the heart of the believers with His True Light to see His Truth.
Peace
Asana
