A Possible Oversight of 4:34???
-
Hi all,
I am in the same position as "path of light" in that I do not know any arabic and am therefore no real value to this discussion - just want to say that it's a very interesting one.
However, because I don't want to see this being buried under page upon page of debate, I'd like to ask Shirley and anyone else this if we do refuse that traditional view of Nisaa meaning women then what could it mean? And how would this effect our interpretation of the different verses of the Qur'an. Basically, I think it might be more helpful if we take this theory to its logical conclusion and see how it fits with the rest of the Qur'an. I for one would be very interested in the outcome of a fresh analysis.
Sorry again that I have little to add. Keep plugging away!
Cheers,
Ty
-
Hi all,
I am in the same position as "path of light" in that I do not know any arabic and am therefore no real value to this discussion - just want to say that it's a very interesting one.
However, because I don't want to see this being buried under page upon page of debate, I'd like to ask Shirley and anyone else this if we do refuse that traditional view of Nisaa meaning women then what could it mean? And how would this effect our interpretation of the different verses of the Qur'an. Basically, I think it might be more helpful if we take this theory to its logical conclusion and see how it fits with the rest of the Qur'an. I for one would be very interested in the outcome of a fresh analysis.
Sorry again that I have little to add. Keep plugging away!
Cheers,
Ty
The basis/premise of all this meaningless and erroneous thinking is this
The reason I strongly feel that this verse is NOT discussing husband and wife relations is because the Arabic word for Husband (male mate/companion) is Zauwj and the Arabic word for wife (female mate/companion) is Zauwja. Neither of these words are mentioned in this verse, yet both of these words are mentioned elsewhere in The Quran when it is clear that it is talking about husband and wife or companions/mates.
Qur'aan uses the same word to refer to husband of a woman and wife of a man-thereby signifying the meanings of spouse.
between the man and his wife.
their husbands
-
Peace Everyone!
This would be a lot easier if we Ask His Majesty for understanding & Guidance!
May His Majesty Grant us understanding!
~ Blessed is His Most Supreme Majesty ~ -
Dear Noon Dhe plume,
With all due respect, I think this explanation is hanging on to a false definition of Nisaa' and indeed the present traditional understanding of this verse depends on this false definition. Once it has been determined that Nisaa' DOES NOT mean women (and in my opinion this thread as well as the link that Eric Michael Torres posted have determined just that), then we are forced to re-evaluate our understanding of ALL of the verses with the word Nisaa' in them and have been traditionally understood to be talking about "women". I believe your present understanding of 4/11 is one such verse.
I for one will not continue to try to make the "Nisaa' means women" understanding fit. I am not going to try to force a square into a circle.
We have come this far. For centuries it has been taught that The Arabic word salat means prayer. After thorough research of The Quran we discovered that this is not true. For centuries we have been taught that the Arabic word Zakaa' means charity or alms giving. After further research of The Quran, we discovered that this too is untrue. For centuries we have been taught to not question hadith and tradition. After thorough research of The Quran we have learned that we should not only question hadith and tradition, but reject them outright. For centuries we have been taught the messenger of The Quran was illiterate. After much research of the Quran and the words ummiyy and ummiyyeen we found out that is complete nonsense. There are literally loads and loads of more fresh discoveries that have been uncovered in just this last decade alone.
WHY STOP THERE???!! If the above understandings were discovered to be untrue then doesn't that means that we have been tricked and lied to and that we need to take a fresh new look at the Quran and it's words and concepts, including the word Nisaa'?! If we've been fooled once, then we've been fooled twice. Why question and challenge all of the things that we have come to grips with so far but insist to hang on to the TRADITIONAL definition of Nisaa' which was given to us by The Same People who fooled us into believing the other things that we have eventually questioned, challenged and ultimately rejecting?
I agree 100@ with you shirley. Nisa does NOT mean women nor does rijaal means men. The quranic word for female is unsa and male is zakr. I dont know why its so hard for some people to understand, pethaps maybe because they are too influenced by the sectarians. All my research tells me that its imposdible that nisa are women and rijaal men. Woe to the sectarians who alter the meaning of the quranic words in order to fit their agenda .
-
My view on this is that not all the times rajul or rijal means human males, it may be both males and females, at other times it means males. The same with nisa'. Many times means human females and some times it means something else. I think it is a matter of context, but I do agree that "traditional" misunderstanding tends to use the ambivalence to promote their own preconceptions and interests and it is very important that the different possibilities be looked into without preconceptions, or with as few preconceptions as humanly possible.
Salaam
Salaam
-
I agree 100@ with you shirley. Nisa does NOT mean women nor does rijaal means men. The quranic word for female is unsa and male is zakr. I dont know why its so hard for some people to understand, pethaps maybe because they are too influenced by the sectarians. All my research tells me that its imposdible that nisa are women and rijaal men. Woe to the sectarians who alter the meaning of the quranic words in order to fit their agenda .
nisa always refers to over two or 3+ females NEVER to males
this is a clear definition given in 411So if nisa over two (feminine)
end of discussion
-
dhakarin = male
unth = femaleBut not specifically a man and a woman, it could be a donkey and she-donkey. This refers to sex of the species. Therefore it means masculine and feminine, not necessarily a man and woman. In 411 is first Aulaad which could comprise both genders, males and females and then females are described by the specific name Women.
-
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=11
dhakarin = male
unth = femaleReplacing Nisa, for the People, in 411 would make 411 more Generous.
poor people would like it.
read the verse work some cases before posting nonsense
411 addreses ditributions to children not people
it defines precisely
if 1 female
if 2 female
if 3+ female ie nisa -
"
read the verse work some cases before posting nonsense
411 addreses ditributions to children not people
it defines precisely
if 1 female
if 2 female
if 3+ female ie nisa"
Sorry. You too, please make more sense.
to proof Nisa = Women, not a nonsense, A Verse from Quran-Book that applied "Nisa" to a Description of Women. Ie, Breastfeed, Bearing-Child, Menstruation bleeding.
Like this for example;
2222
And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives/nisa during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves." -
But not specifically a man and a woman, it could be a donkey and she-donkey. This refers to sex of the species. Therefore it means masculine and feminine, not necessarily a man and woman. In 411 is first Aulaad which could comprise both genders, males and females and then females are described by the specific name Women.
You are correct. But since unsa is a gender like zakr it includes men and women as well
-
nisa always refers to over two or 3+ females NEVER to males
this is a clear definition given in 411So if nisa over two (feminine)
end of discussion
You misunderstood something. nisa is not a gendet hence both men and women can be nisa. So shirley is absolutely correct when she says that nisa does not mean women.
-
Quote from Mazhar on Today at 065750 AM
But not specifically a man and a woman, it could be a donkey and she-donkey. This refers to sex of the species. Therefore it means masculine and feminine, not necessarily a man and woman. In 411 is first Aulaad which could comprise both genders, males and females and then females are described by the specific name Women.You are correct. But since unsa is a gender like zakr it includes men and women as well
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/3.36b.gif
and the male is never like the female;
Just see the sign under your avator and compare it with that of some male member of the forum. Even they do not match. So how Unsa could include man.
-
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/3.36b.gif
and the male is never like the female;
Just see the sign under your avator and compare it with that of some male member of the forum. Even they do not match. So how Unsa could include man.
You misunderstood me. I ment to say that since unsa is a gender it includes women and since zakr is a gender it includes men.
-
Quran 2222 use the word nisa/
the female Human menstruates. unless the verse is not about menstruation, a description of a female.
This verse is NOT about menstruation . It would also be silly since men don't have menstruation and nisa are weak men and women among the people in contradiction to the elite rijaal and qawm
-
This verse is NOT about menstruation . It would also be silly since men don't have menstruation and nisa are weak men and women among the people in contradiction to the elite rijaal and qawm
Please, further explain why, Quran 2222 not about Menstruation. Peace and Thanks.