A Possible Oversight of 4:34???
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Dear Noon Dhe plume,
Peace Eric --
If referring to above two women/females then nisa is used otherwise singular and dual ...
411 so if are Nis/females feminine plural noun above two (feminine)
412 and if is a man inherited kalla or Amra'atu a woman feminine noun
2823 and he found from besides them Amra'tayni two women feminine dual noun
With all due respect, I think this explanation is hanging on to a false definition of Nisaa' and indeed the present traditional understanding of this verse depends on this false definition. Once it has been determined that Nisaa' DOES NOT mean women (and in my opinion this thread as well as the link that Eric Michael Torres posted have determined just that), then we are forced to re-evaluate our understanding of ALL of the verses with the word Nisaa' in them and have been traditionally understood to be talking about "women". I believe your present understanding of 4/11 is one such verse.
I for one will not continue to try to make the "Nisaa' means women" understanding fit. I am not going to try to force a square into a circle.
We have come this far. For centuries it has been taught that The Arabic word salat means prayer. After thorough research of The Quran we discovered that this is not true. For centuries we have been taught that the Arabic word Zakaa' means charity or alms giving. After further research of The Quran, we discovered that this too is untrue. For centuries we have been taught to not question hadith and tradition. After thorough research of The Quran we have learned that we should not only question hadith and tradition, but reject them outright. For centuries we have been taught the messenger of The Quran was illiterate. After much research of the Quran and the words ummiyy and ummiyyeen we found out that is complete nonsense. There are literally loads and loads of more fresh discoveries that have been uncovered in just this last decade alone.
WHY STOP THERE???!! If the above understandings were discovered to be untrue then doesn't that means that we have been tricked and lied to and that we need to take a fresh new look at the Quran and it's words and concepts, including the word Nisaa'?! If we've been fooled once, then we've been fooled twice. Why question and challenge all of the things that we have come to grips with so far but insist to hang on to the TRADITIONAL definition of Nisaa' which was given to us by The Same People who fooled us into believing the other things that we have eventually questioned, challenged and ultimately rejecting?
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Peace Shirley,
I'm trying to find all occurrences of (a woman) and (two women).
(a woman)
412, 4128, 2723, 3350(two women)
2282Both words contain the letters so if there's another word with perhaps it will be the Arabic word for 'three or more women'.
Another possible method is to examine the relationship between the Arabic words for 'a man', 'two men' and 'two or more men' then try and find the same relationship between the female counterparts.By the way, I don't speak Arabic so what are 'broken plurals' and 'sound plurals'?
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Dear Noon Dhe plume,
With all due respect, I think this explanation is hanging on to a false definition of Nisaa' and indeed the present traditional understanding of this verse depends on this false definition. Once it has been determined that Nisaa' DOES NOT mean women (and in my opinion this thread as well as the link that Eric Michael Torres posted have determined just that), then we are forced to re-evaluate our understanding of ALL of the verses with the word Nisaa' in them and have been traditionally understood to be talking about "women". I believe your present understanding of 4/11 is one such verse.
I for one will not continue to try to make the "Nisaa' means women" understanding fit. I am not going to try to force a square into a circle.
We have come this far. For centuries it has been taught that The Arabic word salat means prayer. After thorough research of The Quran we discovered that this is not true. For centuries we have been taught that the Arabic word Zakaa' means charity or alms giving. After further research of The Quran, we discovered that this too is untrue. For centuries we have been taught to not question hadith and tradition. After thorough research of The Quran we have learned that we should not only question hadith and tradition, but reject them outright. For centuries we have been taught the messenger of The Quran was illiterate. After much research of the Quran and the words ummiyy and ummiyyeen we found out that is complete nonsense. There are literally loads and loads of more fresh discoveries that have been uncovered in just this last decade alone.
WHY STOP THERE???!! If the above understandings were discovered to be untrue then doesn't that means that we have been tricked and lied to and that we need to take a fresh new look at the Quran and it's words and concepts, including the word Nisaa'?! If we've been fooled once, then we've been fooled twice. Why question and challenge all of the things that we have come to grips with so far but insist to hang on to the TRADITIONAL definition of Nisaa' which was given to us by The Same People who fooled us into believing the other things that we have eventually questioned, challenged and ultimately rejecting?
Dear Shirley -- most assuredly I've studied this thoroughly, actually spent three years on three verses. )
The link that was posted earlier was illogical, poor analysis and mostly conjecture. Yes traditionalists are clueless on a lot of things as are the modernists wrong on many things with most all translations extremely poor, sloppy, inconsistent, filled with bias spin to support a particular view without careful cross examination for contradictions and consideration for context which is key and reason I'm doing my own translation.
I've referenced inheritance verses since they teach logic, define terms, and give a sense for how Qur'an explains itself along with precise gender definitions. All one needs to do is go through the exercise to distribute the children's and siblings shares to understand the basics. Here are verses for reference...
47 to the men a share from what left the deceased the parents and the close relatives and to the females a share from what left the deceased the parents and the close relatives from what small from it or large portion carry out
48 and when comes the division those the relatives and the orphans and the poor so provide them from it and speak to them a saying nice
411 directs you The God in your children to the male like share the two (feminine) so if are females above two (feminine) so for them two thirds what left the deceased and if she was one so for her the half and for their parents to each one from them the sixth from what left the deceased if is to person an offspring so if not is to person an offspring and heirs person?s parents so to his mother the third so if is to person siblings so to his mother the sixth from after a will have made in it or judgment your parents and your children not you know which of them closer to you benefit obligation from The God indeed The God is Knowing Wise
412 and for you half what left your spouses if not is for them an offspring so if is for them an offspring so for you the fourth from what they left from after a will they made in it or judgment and for them the fourth from what you left if not is to you an offspring so if is to you an offspring so for them the eight from what you left from after a will you made in it or judgment and if is a man inherited spouseless fatherless or woman and has a brother or sister so for each one from them the sixth so if they have more from that so they partners in the third from after a will is recommended in it or judgment not harmful a will from The God and The God Knowing Forebearing
4176 they seek your ruling say The God gives you a ruling in the kalala (spousless and fatherless) if a person died is not to that person an offspring and has sister so for her half what left and he inherits her if not is to her an offspring so if were two (feminine) so to them the two thirds from what left and if they have ikh'watan/siblings males and females so to the male like share the two (feminine) clarifies The God to you lest you stray and The God in every thing Knowing
rijl/men and ikh'watan/brethren at least 1 male with any number of females
the kalala (spousless and fatherless) difference childless 4176 and with child 412
nis are females at any age since children and siblings span across all age groups
is an adult woman which can refer to a wife, girlfriend, or daughter; an example...6611 shows The God example to those who believe woman Pharaoh when she said Lord build to me near You a house in the garden and save me from Pharaoh and his work and save me from al-qawmi/the people the wrongdoers
al-qawmi/the people or nation in above context or tribe/clan/males when addressing patriarchal societies like in many cultures across the globe including my own which I've had a relative draw up a family tree that only included male members going back to a prominent great, great, grandfather -- again context is key.
Here feminine plural nis'watun which ties later to women being questioned in 1251 ....
1230 and said women in the city woman the mighty seeking to seduce her youth about/from himself has infactuated her love indeed surely see her in error clear
1251 said what your affair ( feminine plural) when you sought to seduce (feminine plural) Yusuf/Joseph about/from himself?
Them Egyptian women were sure pretty aggressive at the time; one had to watch their shirt ... ;D
peace
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Dear Noon dhe plume,
You said that you have spent three years on the study of the so-called inheritance verses. I'm at a loss how you missed that the word does not mean deceased person. In fact, the root word DaRaKa has absolutely nothing to do with death. It is to attain or overtake a person or thing. And before you say it means the person is overtaken by death then I would ask why this verse doesn't clearly say that the people in question were overtaken by MAUT? I believe that alone shatters the foundation of the traditional understanding of these verses.
Also the word doesn't mean those. The word for those (as in those people) is ula'ika. basically means the same as Ahl meaning a people who are possessors of something in particular. The incorrect translation of these words contribute to the overall misunderstanding of these verses and the correct translation/definition of these words (along with the correct translation of Nisaa' would force you to re evaluate the present traditional understanding of these verses.
So I still see you as forcing these verses to be talking about the distribution of inheritance and that the word Nisaa' means women. Even though it is starting to become more and more clear that the word Nisaa' simply does not mean women.
You said that the link E.M. Torres provided was illogical and based on conjecture, but did not point out where and how it is illogical and conjecture based. It is what it is and the Quran says what it says. The author of the article examined key Arabic words in the relevant verses. Nothing conjectural or illogical about that.
But I know when a person is not interested in letting go of a pre conceived notion. I am not one for convincing. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Dear Eric Michael Torres,
A sound plural is when you add simply a certain suffix to the singular word to make it plural. That is what you have posted earlier...sound plurals. Muslim gets the suffix een...Muslimeen. Muslima gets the suffix (or ending) aat...Muslimaat. Mujahid also gets een...Mujahideen. Those are examples of sound plurals.
Broken plurals take shape when the singular word itself is changed internally to make the plural. For example the word for boy is walad. The plural is Awlaad. Masjid becomes Masaajid. Kitab becomes kutub, etc. The core letters of the singular are reshaped to make the plural. This is called broken plural due to the "breaking" of the singular word itself to make the plural.
I hope that this was of some help.
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Dear Noon dhe plume,
You said that you have spent three years on the study of the so-called inheritance verses. I'm at a loss how you missed that the word does not mean deceased person.
Dear Shirley -- you did not see what "left" (i.e. the deceased]?
The deceased part is there for clarification, so I missed the parentheses on a few.
47 to the men a share from what left the deceased the parents and the close relatives and to the females a share from what left the deceased the parents and the close relatives from what small from it or large portion carry out
48 and when comes the division those the relatives and the orphans and the poor so provide them from it and speak to them a saying nice
411 directs you The God in your children to the male like share the two (feminine) so if are females above two (feminine) so for them two thirds what left the deceased and if she was one so for her the half and for their parents to each one from them the sixth from what left the deceased if is to person an offspring so if not is to person an offspring and heirs person?s parents so to his mother the third so if is to person siblings so to his mother the sixth from after a will have made in it or judgment your parents and your children not you know which of them closer to you benefit obligation from The God indeed The God is Knowing Wise
412 and for you half what left your spouses if not is for them an offspring so if is for them an offspring so for you the fourth from what they left from after a will they made in it or judgment and for them the fourth from what you left if not is to you an offspring so if is to you an offspring so for them the eight from what you left from after a will you made in it or judgment and if is a man inherited spouseless fatherless or woman and has a brother or sister so for each one from them the sixth so if they have more from that so they partners in the third from after a will is recommended in it or judgment not harmful a will from The God and The God Knowing Forebearing
4176 they seek your ruling say The God gives you a ruling in the kalala (spousless and fatherless) if a person died is not to that person an offspring and has sister so for her half what left and he inherits her if not is to her an offspring so if were two (feminine) so to them the two thirds from what left and if they have ikh'watan/siblings males and females so to the male like share the two (feminine) clarifies The God to you lest you stray and The God in every thing Knowing
Also the word doesn't mean those.
We're going off topic of discussion; perhaps translate closest meaning?
2269 and none remembers only those the understanding
So I still see you as forcing these verses to be talking about the distribution of inheritance and that the word Nisaa' means women. Even though it is starting to become more and more clear that the word Nisaa' simply does not mean women.
Not forcing a thing; simply tell how distribute shares "left" by the deceased with 3 daughters for example? Feel free to pick any other relative and use any definition of nisa other than females you like.
You said that the link E.M. Torres provided was illogical and based on conjecture, but did not point out where and how it is illogical and conjecture based. It is what it is and the Quran says what it says. The author of the article examined key Arabic words in the relevant verses. Nothing conjectural or illogical about that.
Why waste time; besides the author is a member and welcome to stop by distribute the shares above.
But I know when a person is not interested in letting go of a pre conceived notion. I am not one for convincing. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I assuredly am open minded and happy to see your distributions above and also explain how anyone else other than women/females i.e. nisa can bear children, have menstrual cycles, and menopause.
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Hi all,
I am in the same position as "path of light" in that I do not know any arabic and am therefore no real value to this discussion - just want to say that it's a very interesting one.
However, because I don't want to see this being buried under page upon page of debate, I'd like to ask Shirley and anyone else this if we do refuse that traditional view of Nisaa meaning women then what could it mean? And how would this effect our interpretation of the different verses of the Qur'an. Basically, I think it might be more helpful if we take this theory to its logical conclusion and see how it fits with the rest of the Qur'an. I for one would be very interested in the outcome of a fresh analysis.
Sorry again that I have little to add. Keep plugging away!
Cheers,
Ty
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Hi all,
I am in the same position as "path of light" in that I do not know any arabic and am therefore no real value to this discussion - just want to say that it's a very interesting one.
However, because I don't want to see this being buried under page upon page of debate, I'd like to ask Shirley and anyone else this if we do refuse that traditional view of Nisaa meaning women then what could it mean? And how would this effect our interpretation of the different verses of the Qur'an. Basically, I think it might be more helpful if we take this theory to its logical conclusion and see how it fits with the rest of the Qur'an. I for one would be very interested in the outcome of a fresh analysis.
Sorry again that I have little to add. Keep plugging away!
Cheers,
Ty
The basis/premise of all this meaningless and erroneous thinking is this
The reason I strongly feel that this verse is NOT discussing husband and wife relations is because the Arabic word for Husband (male mate/companion) is Zauwj and the Arabic word for wife (female mate/companion) is Zauwja. Neither of these words are mentioned in this verse, yet both of these words are mentioned elsewhere in The Quran when it is clear that it is talking about husband and wife or companions/mates.
Qur'aan uses the same word to refer to husband of a woman and wife of a man-thereby signifying the meanings of spouse.
between the man and his wife.
their husbands
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Peace Everyone!
This would be a lot easier if we Ask His Majesty for understanding & Guidance!
May His Majesty Grant us understanding!
~ Blessed is His Most Supreme Majesty ~ -
Dear Noon Dhe plume,
With all due respect, I think this explanation is hanging on to a false definition of Nisaa' and indeed the present traditional understanding of this verse depends on this false definition. Once it has been determined that Nisaa' DOES NOT mean women (and in my opinion this thread as well as the link that Eric Michael Torres posted have determined just that), then we are forced to re-evaluate our understanding of ALL of the verses with the word Nisaa' in them and have been traditionally understood to be talking about "women". I believe your present understanding of 4/11 is one such verse.
I for one will not continue to try to make the "Nisaa' means women" understanding fit. I am not going to try to force a square into a circle.
We have come this far. For centuries it has been taught that The Arabic word salat means prayer. After thorough research of The Quran we discovered that this is not true. For centuries we have been taught that the Arabic word Zakaa' means charity or alms giving. After further research of The Quran, we discovered that this too is untrue. For centuries we have been taught to not question hadith and tradition. After thorough research of The Quran we have learned that we should not only question hadith and tradition, but reject them outright. For centuries we have been taught the messenger of The Quran was illiterate. After much research of the Quran and the words ummiyy and ummiyyeen we found out that is complete nonsense. There are literally loads and loads of more fresh discoveries that have been uncovered in just this last decade alone.
WHY STOP THERE???!! If the above understandings were discovered to be untrue then doesn't that means that we have been tricked and lied to and that we need to take a fresh new look at the Quran and it's words and concepts, including the word Nisaa'?! If we've been fooled once, then we've been fooled twice. Why question and challenge all of the things that we have come to grips with so far but insist to hang on to the TRADITIONAL definition of Nisaa' which was given to us by The Same People who fooled us into believing the other things that we have eventually questioned, challenged and ultimately rejecting?
I agree 100@ with you shirley. Nisa does NOT mean women nor does rijaal means men. The quranic word for female is unsa and male is zakr. I dont know why its so hard for some people to understand, pethaps maybe because they are too influenced by the sectarians. All my research tells me that its imposdible that nisa are women and rijaal men. Woe to the sectarians who alter the meaning of the quranic words in order to fit their agenda .
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My view on this is that not all the times rajul or rijal means human males, it may be both males and females, at other times it means males. The same with nisa'. Many times means human females and some times it means something else. I think it is a matter of context, but I do agree that "traditional" misunderstanding tends to use the ambivalence to promote their own preconceptions and interests and it is very important that the different possibilities be looked into without preconceptions, or with as few preconceptions as humanly possible.
Salaam
Salaam
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I agree 100@ with you shirley. Nisa does NOT mean women nor does rijaal means men. The quranic word for female is unsa and male is zakr. I dont know why its so hard for some people to understand, pethaps maybe because they are too influenced by the sectarians. All my research tells me that its imposdible that nisa are women and rijaal men. Woe to the sectarians who alter the meaning of the quranic words in order to fit their agenda .
nisa always refers to over two or 3+ females NEVER to males
this is a clear definition given in 411So if nisa over two (feminine)
end of discussion
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dhakarin = male
unth = femaleBut not specifically a man and a woman, it could be a donkey and she-donkey. This refers to sex of the species. Therefore it means masculine and feminine, not necessarily a man and woman. In 411 is first Aulaad which could comprise both genders, males and females and then females are described by the specific name Women.
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http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=11
dhakarin = male
unth = femaleReplacing Nisa, for the People, in 411 would make 411 more Generous.
poor people would like it.
read the verse work some cases before posting nonsense
411 addreses ditributions to children not people
it defines precisely
if 1 female
if 2 female
if 3+ female ie nisa -
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read the verse work some cases before posting nonsense
411 addreses ditributions to children not people
it defines precisely
if 1 female
if 2 female
if 3+ female ie nisa"
Sorry. You too, please make more sense.
to proof Nisa = Women, not a nonsense, A Verse from Quran-Book that applied "Nisa" to a Description of Women. Ie, Breastfeed, Bearing-Child, Menstruation bleeding.
Like this for example;
2222
And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives/nisa during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves." -
But not specifically a man and a woman, it could be a donkey and she-donkey. This refers to sex of the species. Therefore it means masculine and feminine, not necessarily a man and woman. In 411 is first Aulaad which could comprise both genders, males and females and then females are described by the specific name Women.
You are correct. But since unsa is a gender like zakr it includes men and women as well
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nisa always refers to over two or 3+ females NEVER to males
this is a clear definition given in 411So if nisa over two (feminine)
end of discussion
You misunderstood something. nisa is not a gendet hence both men and women can be nisa. So shirley is absolutely correct when she says that nisa does not mean women.