''Nisa'' does NOT mean Women and Rejaal does NOT mean men
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You are out of touch with reality. If you mean to say that the translation is the same as quran than We have many different translations of the quran in english each translation translate words differentky. Now which one of the translations(Yousef ali, freeminds etc) is the quran according to you ?
Dear Sister,
If the translation is not preserved then NO ONE knows what the Quran teaches. Not even you. Don't you base your skill in Arabic on what Arabic teachers teach you??? Do you see how backward your logic is? If these people(Arabic speakers) don't know the meaning of Arabic words then what exactly did you learn???
Regarding this issue on which translation is better I would not go into debate with you on that since it would be futile. However I would say that the 'true teachings' of the Quran depends solely on the intentions of the reader. There are many verses in the Quran that have 'multiple meanings' and if they are not studied careful one can easily be lead astray by what one reads
37 He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are definite signs; they are the essence of the book; and others, which are multiple-meaning. As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it. But none knows their meaning except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say, "We acknowledge it, all is from our Lord." None will remember except the people of intellect.
Translations and interpretations of Quran depends mostly on your personal relationship with God and your intentions ...
5677 It is an honorable Quran.
5678 In a protected record. ( a guarded book)
5679 None can grasp it except those pure.( meaning sincere)
5680 A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.Those who have bad intentions (selfish intentions ) will be lead astray by all manner of teachings.
Try to look in a dictionary what people means and you would know that people contain both genders.
People simply just mean people(both males and females). It does not mean males or females, but males AND females. So when god is referring to people he is talking about both males and femalesNo . People can be in any of the three categories
- a group of males
- a group of females
- Both males and females
http//www.thefreedictionary.com/people
People = "persons collectively or in general"
314 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, the livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best place of return.
"Desire of women "= males only
"Buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, the livestock, and fields " - males and females.
There is no contradiction.
Peace,
Kevin
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Dear Sister,
If the translation is not preserved then NO ONE knows what the Quran teaches. Not even you. Don't you base your skill in Arabic on what Arabic teachers teach you??? Do you see how backward your logic is? If these people(Arabic speakers) don't know the meaning of Arabic words then what exactly did you learn???o
Regarding this issue on which translation is better I would not go into debate with you on that since it would be futile. However I would say that the 'true teachings' of the Quran depends solely on the intentions of the reader. There are many verses in the Quran that have 'multiple meanings' and if they are not studied careful one can easily be lead astray by what one reads
37 He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are definite signs; they are the essence of the book; and others, which are multiple-meaning. As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it. But none knows their meaning except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say, "We acknowledge it, all is from our Lord." None will remember except the people of intellect.
Translations and interpretations of Quran depends mostly on your personal relationship with God and your intentions ...
5677 It is an honorable Quran.
5678 In a protected record. ( a guarded book)
5679 None can grasp it except those pure.( meaning sincere)
5680 A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.Those who have bad intentions (selfish intentions ) will be lead astray by all manner of teachings.
No . People can be in any of the three categories
- a group of males
- a group of females
- Both males and females
http//www.thefreedictionary.com/people
People = "persons collectively or in general"
314 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, the livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best place of return.
"Desire of women "= males only
"Buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, the livestock, and fields " - males and females.
There is no contradiction.
Peace,
Kevin
So you mean that my logic is backward because my arabic skills are based on my Arabic teacher while your logic is very great because your Arabic skills are based on different translation who you mean all are quran ? Your post are totally pointless. The truth is that no translation is quran since its not god who translated it. Otherwise how would you explain all the different translations?? But the meaning of the quran can be known because quran does not contradict itself so when a translation contradicts the quran it means that the translation is wrong.
Secondly you are contradicting yourself. Now you say that people means people of men when people means persons collectively and therefore people have nothing to do with a particular gender. And where does god says people of men ? He says people, not people of men. If he ment men and if rejaal means men he would use the word 'rejaal'' and not naas 'people'. By the way no where does people in quran means men in other verses. By the way there is also a second thing if people means men according to you, than what does quran says about the desire of women? What does women desire ?
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Hello friend,
Hello friends.
I spoke once with a european professor in Arabic, and he told me that the word 'Nisa' in the quranic text actually does not mean ''women'' and that ''rejaal'' in the quranic text does not refer to ''men'' as the traditional sunni interpretation/translation have been. He told me that these meaning were developed some hundred years after the Quran. He said the quranic word for the genders are 'Zakr' and '' .
He said Nisa rather means a person or group who is weak(containing both genders). And Rejaal means a person or group which is strong(containing both genders).
He did not knew why 'Nisa' was later on changed to mean 'women' and rejaal to mean 'men' by the islamic emphires, but he suggested that it possibly happened in order to fit in the hadith-agenda who has many things to say about how the genders should be defined and interact.
Later on in Freeminds I saw brother loxbox13 and some others who claimed the very same thing. And also I heard others claim it.
Can someone eloborate on it?
Your professor is mindlessly ranting/clueless; "nisa" refers to 3+ females as exactly stated in Qur'an...
411 so if are females above two (feminine)
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So you mean that my logic is backward because my arabic skills are based on my Arabic teacher while your logic is very great because your Arabic skills are based on different translation who you mean all are quran ? Your post are totally pointless. The truth is that no translation is quran since its not god who tranated it.
Secondly you are contradicting yourself. Now you say that people means people of men. But where does god says people of men ? He says people, not people of men. If he ment men and if rejaal means men he would use the word 'rejaal'' and not naas 'people'. By the way no where does people in quran means men in other verses. By the way there is also a second thing if people means men according to you than what is the desires of women ? Are women forbidden to desire men and wealth ?
Dear Sister,
Either you are terrible at English or you are deliberately trying to make a point that does not exist (cause confusion). How have I contradicted myself?
No . People can be in any of the three categories
- a group of males
- a group of females
- Both males and females
http//www.thefreedictionary.com/people
People = "persons collectively or in general"
314 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, the livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best place of return.
"Desire of women "= males only
"Buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, the livestock, and fields " - males and females.
Peace,
Kevin
Again for the last time, when God says "the desires of women" obviously he means MALES and when God says "Buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, the livestock, and fields " he is referring to MALES AND FEMALES. There is no contradiction.
Also again if a translation of the Quran does not exist it would mean NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE QURAN TEACHES. NOT EVEN YOU.. It would also mean that your Arabic translation is not 100% right but solely based on conjecture and not facts. Your logic and approach is backward. I would advise you sister to ' look before you leap' .
Peace,
Kevin
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Dear Sister,
Either you are terrible at English or you are deliberately trying to make a point that does not exist (cause confusion). How have I contradicted myself?
Again for the last time, when God says "the desires of women" obviously he means MALES and when God says "Buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, the livestock, and fields " he is referring to MALES AND FEMALES. There is no contradiction.
Also again if a translation of the Quran does not exist it would mean NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE QURAN TEACHES. NOT EVEN YOU.. It would also mean that your Arabic translation is not 100% right but solely based on conjecture and not facts. Your logic and approach is backward. I would advise you sister to ' look before you leap' .
Peace,
Kevin
I am sorry but you are contradicting yourself. First you said that people means men and now you say that people means people but that some words apply only for men while others for both genders. There are no linguistic reason for stopping in the first half and apply something for the later. either people desire women children and wealth(lesbians lol) otherwise nisa does not mean women.
If Allah translates Arabic into English than how do you explain all the different translations? Which one of them is the quran ?
It is only the Arabic original ancient text which is preserved and quran contains a lot of secrets. The MEANING of quran is preserved to you if you know that quran does not contains any contradictions; hence if one translation contradicts something in the quran than the translation must be wrong. That is why god says that quran is for the intelligent people. And I just gave you many verses before which ckearly shows that nisa are not necessary women and rejaal are not necessary men because it contradicts the quran. And that is the way the MEANING if the quran is preserved (not the translation)if you if you go by the rule that quran does not contain contradictions. Please look at the verses I quoted to you.
Its like i once spoke with a sonehow sexiest quranist who insisted on that quran allows sex before marriage. I than asked him that how can sex before marriage be lawful when surah noor tells you that you are not even allowed to LOOK at a woman ? (The verse about lowering gaze). So either his interpretation was wrong or quran contradicts itself. Sincere people would suggest the first one. so yes soncerity is also a requirement for understanding the quran just as you said.
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http//www.cramitwithwalnuts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/facepalm.jpg
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By the way if someone could eloborate further on the meanings by using Arabic grammar it would be very helpful. Thanks.
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37 He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are definite signs; they are the essence of the book; and others, which are multiple-meaning. As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it. But none knows their meaning except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say, "We acknowledge it, all is from our Lord." None will remember except the people of intellect.
Whoever translated this, he did not know difference between feminine and masculine words of Arabic. Nor he knows difference between active participle and passive participle.
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Hey all,
You have an interesting take on certain verses in the Quran but you seem to lack a bit of common sense. What would be the point of preserving a text without the proper translation??? If I had an Arabic text and I don't know what the translation is then why bother with such a unless book? What's worst is if the Arabic translation is not preserved it would mean that not even those who know Arabic would know its true translation! Is this God's idea of a joke!!! Or does the verse truly mean that both the translation and the text of the Quran are persevered???
Any intelligent person would know that you need both in order to preserve a text which is to be used for future generations. You can't have a text without a proper translation! It would cause confusion.If the translation is not preserved then NO ONE knows what the Quran teaches. Not even you.
Brother, what exactly does this mean? It makes very little sense to me. Of course the translation is not preserved o was the Qur'an translated by Allah into other languages that I am not aware of? WhereistheTruth is absolutely correct in saying that there can be discrepancies between different english translations of the book, we come across them many times.
Heck, even a book of poetry or prose written in German right now would have many different translations into the English language. God did not preserve the translations - those are man-made and, thus, subject to fault. No, Allah created the classical arabic Qur'an that we must base our conclusions from. (I don't know arabic btw so I too must, in a sense, place some faith in the translators.)
Because of my lack of knowledge, obviously I am not of much use here, but I think it's an interesting discussion to have. Obviously we must note that the Qur'an is the best dictionary.
Here is a site that has been posted before that may add to the discussion
http//revolutionpsyche.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/if-nisa-meant-women/
Thanks.
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Hey all,
Brother, what exactly does this mean? It makes very little sense to me. Of course the translation is not preserved was the Qur'an translated by Allah into other languages that I am not aware of? WhereistheTruth is absolutely correct in saying that there can be discrepancies between different english translations of the book, we come across them many times.
Heck, even a book of poetry or prose written in German right now would have many different translations into the English language. God did not preserve the translations - those are man-made and, thus, subject to fault. No, Allah created the classical arabic Qur'an that we must base our conclusions from. (I don't know arabic btw so I too must, in a sense, place some faith in the translators.)
Because of my lack of knowledge, obviously I am not of much use here, but I think it's an interesting discussion to have. Obviously we must note that the Qur'an is the best dictionary.
Here is a site that has been posted before that may add to the discussion
http//revolutionpsyche.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/if-nisa-meant-women/
Thanks.
What I meant was the meaning and use of Arabic words. If the meanings of Arabic words are not preserved the Quran would be a useless scripture.
Translations and interpretations depend on
(1) Your relationship with God
(2) Your level of analytical skills
(3) Your intentions
(4) The stage of your spiritually development
(5) Your knowledge of the previous scriptures ( This is very important since the Quran is a CONTINUATION of the previous books. The Jews and Christians have a stronger foundation and knowledge in what is being taught in the Quran than ALL of the sects in Islam! )
(6) Your understanding of Arabic ( This doesn't play a major role in guidance but it is still an important one)This is why translations will always be different. People who are spiritually weak will have weak/inaccurate interpretations whilst people who are strong will have better translations and interpretations. The stronger your bond with God the better chance you have of understanding the Quran more accurately.
I am sorry but you are contradicting yourself. First you said that people means men and now you say that people means people but that some words apply only for men while others for both genders. There are no linguistic reason for stopping in the first half and apply something for the later. either people desire women children and wealth(lesbians lol) otherwise nisa does not mean women.
314 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women , buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, the livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best place of return.
desire of women = males only
buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, the livestock, and fields = females and males
A group of males are persons. A group of females are persons. People means "persons collectively or in general"
It can be a group of males , a group of females or both! ALL ARE PERSONS!!!Where is the contradiction????
Peace,
Kevin
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Kevin that is as You say people is not a gender its collectively. if god ment men why didnt he said men. So the desire for people is women which means there are lesbians among people lol rotfl. . I don't know what in the sentence make you think that its For males only since males.are not been mentioned at all O0 I think the reason for why you think people in the first example suddenly only are men is because you have a particular opinion about homosexuality while one lesbian in my university would say 'Gosh that's right. Women are our desires. And this verse is an allowance of lesbian homosexuality'' (and believe me I red in. Article that a homosexual group showed this verse as allowances for homosexuality for girls). So the word ''people'' is used wrong here if nisa are women. Tell me one more place in quran where people are men and you won't find it..
Meanings of the words preserved ?than how would you explain that we have so many words in Arabic which meanings are changing which time? I think.it would be more correct to say the meaning of the quran itself is preserved hy God to his true believers by his mercy and guidance.
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Hey all,
Brother, what exactly does this mean? It makes very little sense to me. Of course the translation is not preserved was the Qur'an translated by Allah into other languages that I am not aware of? WhereistheTruth is absolutely correct in saying that there can be discrepancies between different english translations of the book, we come across them many times.
Heck, even a book of poetry or prose written in German right now would have many different translations into the English language. God did not preserve the translations - those are man-made and, thus, subject to fault. No, Allah created the classical arabic Qur'an that we must base our conclusions from. (I don't know arabic btw so I too must, in a sense, place some faith in the translators.)
Because of my lack of knowledge, obviously I am not of much use here, but I think it's an interesting discussion to have. Obviously we must note that the Qur'an is the best dictionary.
Here is a site that has been posted before that may add to the discussion
http//revolutionpsyche.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/if-nisa-meant-women/
Thanks.
Thanks for the link brother. It was excately what i was looking for.
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Kevin that is as You say people is not a gender its collectively. if god ment men why didnt he said men. So the desire for people is women which means there are lesbians among people lol rotfl. . I don't know what in the sentence make you think that its For males only since males.are not been mentioned at all O0 I think the reason for why you think people in the first example suddenly only are men is because you have a particular opinion about homosexuality while one lesbian in my university would say 'Gosh that's right. Women are our desires. And this verse is an allowance of lesbian homosexuality'' (and believe me I red in. Article that a homosexual group showed this verse as allowances for homosexuality for girls). So the word ''people'' is used wrong here if nisa are women. Tell me one more place in quran where people are men and you won't find it..
Meanings of the words preserved ?than how would you explain that we have so many words in Arabic which meanings are changing which time? I think.it would be more correct to say the meaning of the quran itself is preserved hy God to his true believers by his mercy and guidance.
Now it is you who are contradicting yourself. If something is collective and not based on gender it can go either way(males only, females only or both male AND females together) which is what I have been showing to you. And since you like contradict others deceitfully just for the sake of making some foolish claim of the lack of women's rights which already exists in the Quran(women's rights) but not to your satisfaction again I will put up my previous post for the sake of the new people on this forum so that they would not be deceived by some woman bent on trashing the Quran for the sake of causing confusion and not for the sake of pursuing knowledge (at least to me that is how it looks like) here is my post again ....
314 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women , buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, the livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best place of return.
desire of women = males only
buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, the livestock, and fields = deals with females and males
Since as you say that people are collective (meaning a group of persons make up a people) it can go either way.
When God was referring to "the desire of woman" logic would dictate that since homosexuality is a gross sin that God was only referring to the males among 'the people". The rest of the scripture would encapsulate the males and the females.
So for the last time where is the contradiction?
Answer There is NONE!
PS This is a very sunni-like question "if god ment men why didnt he said men? " ( what goes around comes around . I remember you were a telling another member the same thing on a different topic. )
Wow so God didn't give us brains to think and to reason. How is it that I could logically dissect a verse and you can't ? What you want sister is a separate book for yourself.
Word of Advise Knowing Arabic plays an important part in translating the Quran but it isn't the most important part when it comes to UNDERSTANDING the Quran. It is better to understand one verse in the Quran than to translate hundreds of verses and not know what they mean.
Peace,
Kevin
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Now it is you who are contradicting yourself. If something is collective and not based on gender it can go either way(males only, females only or both male AND females together) which is what I have been showing to you. And since you like contradict others deceitfully just for the sake of making some foolish claim of the lack of women's rights which already exists in the Quran(women's rights) but not to your satisfaction again I will put up my previous post for the sake of the new people on this forum so that they would not be deceived by some woman bent on trashing the Quran for the sake of causing confusion and not for the sake of pursuing knowledge (at least to me that is how it looks like) here is my post again ....
314 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women , buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, the livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best place of return.
desire of women = males only
Accurate understanding.
in nominative state is the Proxy Subject of the Passive Verb. is prepositional phrase- . Grand Qur'aan does not say anything which is contrary to ground realities. It uses "some of the women". Men do not have attraction in all the women on earth. Each man may have attraction in some of the women.
When a noun signifying both the genders is used in relation to another word having specific gender only the opposite of that referred gender will be signified by the common gender noun.
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Now it is you who are contradicting yourself. If something is collective and not based on gender it can go either way(males only, females only or both male AND females together) which is what I have been showing to you. And since you like contradict others deceitfully just for the sake of making some foolish claim of the lack of women's rights which already exists in the Quran(women's rights) but not to your satisfaction again I will put up my previous post for the sake of the new people on this forum so that they would not be deceived by some woman bent on trashing the Quran for the sake of causing confusion and not for the sake of pursuing knowledge (at least to me that is how it looks like) here is my post again ....
314 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women , buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained u, the livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best place of return.
desire of women = males only
buildings, ornaments made from gold and silver, trained horses, the livestock, and fields = deals with females and males
Since as you say that people are collective (meaning a group of persons make up a people) it can go either way.
When God was referring to "the desire of woman" logic would dictate that since homosexuality is a gross sin that God was only referring to the males among 'the people". The rest of the scripture would encapsulate the males and the females.
So for the last time where is the contradiction?
Answer There is NONE!
PS This is a very sunni-like question "if god ment men why didnt he said men? " ( what goes around comes around . I remember you were a telling another member the same thing on a different topic. )
Wow so God didn't give us brains to think and to reason. How is it that I could logically dissect a verse and you can't ? What you want sister is a separate book for yourself.
Word of Advise Knowing Arabic plays an important part in translating the Quran but it isn't the most important part when it comes to UNDERSTANDING the Quran. It is better to understand one verse in the Quran than to translate hundreds of verses and not know what they mean.
Peace, yeah
Kevin
Now i am confused. why are you suddenly talking about womens rights ? We were talking about if people means men or not so why do you suddenly jump to women's rights ? What has women's rights to do with the thread ? Or do you mean that its a woman right to be desired by men as the verse states according to you ? In any case i think we sha stick to the subject and eventually discuss women rights in another thread which is properly not so important for me personally since I don't lack any rights anyway and since i live in europe where women have more rights than men anyway. so 'men's rights' make more sense for me. offtopic
Now back to The subject please