The Search for Muhammad has Ended
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I apologize if I missed the reference, I couldnt find it in the OP. I thought it was important to illustrate how this idea has been heaviliy abused politically, if it did not came into life because of political motivations. Just pay attention to the OP author's use of anti-zionist statements. In my opinion the whole theory is pseudo-scientifical. I'm not even bothered to go into a debate. It would be a lot more honest if at least the nationalist background of Salibi and his support for fatah was mentioned.
You do need to Apologise brother. Trust me, as I have said in this thread also, it's wasting time nothing, but garbage. The problems is here, for some, pazuzu work considered as truth its liberating and enlightening. His follower will attack you whenever pazuzu work criticized. Only pazuzu can point other work's as garbage's, propaganda and so on.
Just like some criticized Bukhari, whoever it was will have to face bukhary faithfull follower whom believe bukhary work is liberating, enlightning etc, all because of the amount of work his done, one should be thankful.
As I said, thre's might be propaganda in play here hehehe.
Peace
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Oh, well, we are also here full of redeemers who will keep us from falling into sin at the hands of devil Pazuzu, whom we worship ever so much.
Whenever somebody is confronted with something for which they do not have arguments they resort to branding of this or that, beause we are fools and children that a fall for anything.
Only they, the chosen know truth from temptation.
You are so ridiculous pretending that those who see worth in Pazuzus work what they are is brainwashed. You, may be would like us to b3e brainwashed by you and "not by Pazuzu".
The point is that you have absolutely nothing to offer but the usual crap, and do not even have the honesty to confront any of Pazuzus with the text of the Qur'an, which is, in case you forgot, why we are here.
Bring up the Qur'an and prove whatever you want to prove, which you do not say. _All you care is that Pazuzu thism Pazuzu that. You are the ones that are crazy ofver Pazuzu, up to here everybody who appreciates his work has been quite able to put up whatever problems they ahve seen with it.
The Qur'an tells us not to covet other people's gifts.
Bring up books like Pazuzu has written and put up research like he has put and then come back and try to get us much attention.
Pointing fingers an inuendos are not something that attracts the loyalty of loyal people. An picking in Palestine only attracts the loyalte of cowards.
If all your scientifical back up consist of throwing stones on the roof of Palestine, and you have not shown any other, what kind of respect do you expect.
Salaam
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Interesting you're assuming the one whom criticized pazuzu considered him as devil and such, such imagination. nope
I'm not even going to debate you brother huruf. I'ts only going to be mudharat for me to debate anyone over someone like pazuzu.. )
A reactions whenever pazuzu is criticized on general terms ( this is general issues board as I recall again), in sha Allah everyone can read and judge it by themselves. And lastly, Alhamdulillah, it seems only bit portion members on this forum believe in pazuzu garbages.
Salam
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Interesting you're assuming the one whom criticized pazuzu considered him as devil and such, such imagination. nope
I'm not even going to debate you brother huruf. I'ts only going to be mudharat for me to debate anyone over someone like pazuzu.. )
A reactions whenever pazuzu is criticized on general terms ( this is general issues board as I recall again), in sha Allah everyone can read and judge it by themselves. And lastly, Alhamdulillah, it seems only bit portion members on this forum believe in pazuzu garbages.
Salam
Your qualifying Pazuzu's contribution as garbage describes you not Pazuzu. Nobody worthy wastes energy puylling down somebody's work or contribution. Rather would keep mum or would contribute something themselves to make light of whatever. Calling somethin garbage is no merit, and seems to clear you, it seems of the need to come up with good analysis or goot research stuff to counter what you qualify as garbage. What you say is of no value and gives a pretty clear idea of the mental state of whoever comes up with that kind of thing.
If Pazuzu was half as mean as his name callers, he would be laughing out loud at these word wastage without any value or help for anybody , because really it is laughable.
Salaam
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Your qualifying Pazuzu's contribution as garbage describes you not Pazuzu. Nobody worthy wastes energy puylling down somebody's work or contribution. Rather would keep mum or would contribute something themselves to make light of whatever. Calling somethin garbage is no merit, and seems to clear you, it seems of the need to come up with good analysis or goot research stuff to counter what you qualify as garbage. What you say is of no value and gives a pretty clear idea of the mental state of whoever comes up with that kind of thing.
If Pazuzu was half as mean as his name callers, he would be laughing out loud at these word wastage without any value or help for anybody , because really it is laughable.
So when pazuzu calling other works (real research not google based) are garbage's propaganda, he is worthy right?
Typical..... hmm
Salam
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I dislike very much you inuendo indicating that if somebody is a member (was he a member) of Fatah or of anything elswe whatsoever one has to automatically dismiss what he or she says, on that ground everything in this world should be dismissed. Why do you pick precisely the cause of the most maligned and ill treated people in the world at this time, is beyond me. You should know why you do that and we do not need a mentor to caution us against Pazuzu or against anybody else. We are grown up enough. And in thisparticular case Pazuzu is far more on the mark than you as far as I am concerned. Palestinians have the right to fight, have the right to have wheatever organizations they deem or can set up. And to distrust anybody because somebody is sympathetic or participant in something like that is ignoble.
On the other hand,do you have any counter to Pazuzu's documents where he quotes precisely Israeli universities which, of all else, are writing more and more consistently supporting precisely those views of Pazuzu which you criticese on the grounds thaat you do.
You not only seem to be out of line, but also out of touch with "prestige" sources.
Salaam
What you like and dislike is irrelevant to me huruf. Let me point out some things to you
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I'm not even attacking Pazuzu. I will do so now. This research as he presents it consists of plagiarising old theories and copying other peoples works that have been around for decades, presenting them as his own research and presenting them as new discoveries. In reality, nothing in this work is his intellectual property. Him asking to publish his 'book' on someones webserver should tell you he's well aware he's violating a lot of copyrights. If this weren't the case, he would go to a publisher. But it will cost a lot of money clearing those copyrights.
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Someone being part of fatah does not render the work irrelevant. Of course not. But this theory has been 30 years old now. It has not been accepted by the academic world since then and it never will be because it is pseudo-scientifical crap that is on the same level of the nazi's doing their research in Tibet to trace the roots of their aryan race. Equal to the level of the Israeli archeology claiming they discovered the city of David. I'm not applying double standards, huruf. You are because you sympathize with the palestinian cause you turn into a gullible reader of the work. I mean, this Salibi's 'scientific' methods involve using sundials - archeological evidence is just not required in his methods.
Peace
PS It's saddening to me a community that preaches Quran only is still susceptible to letting Quran being highjacked for politcal motives. @huruf, you are wrong to think to know my opinion about the Israeli-Palestine conflict. I'm not looking through political lenses when I'm looking at history, science or Quran. Me sympathizing with the Palestinian cause does not imply I will switch my mind of when I see falsehood. I'm not even saying it's impossible Yemen is the right location for certain events as described in Quran. But Salibi's theory, as regurgitated by pazuzu in this thread will not be the one proving it to the rational thinking mind that isn't muslim or a militant supporter of the palestinian cause to begin with.
*edited
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This research as he presents it consists of plagiarising old theories and copying other peoples works that have been around for decades, presenting them as his own research and presenting them as new discoveries.
Is it so?
Before you arrogantly accuse others with your usual venom and biggotry, and spew your legal vomit and political correctness in here, you should know that most of the "garbage" you read on these threads has been updated and put into a series of e-books. At the beginning of these e-books is a disclaimer page which clearly states that the books are simply compilations of what other researchers and academics have said regarding the issue, quoting articles, statements they made in seminars, passages from books (showing the reference at the end of each book), and that the compilers have not sought any material gain, nor do they hold any rights to the materials therein. In fact 90% of what is written can be downloaded for free off the net, albeit in Arabic, not in English. Therefore it is not the theory of Pazuzu, nor did Pazuzu ever, in any way shape and form, claim it as his own.
That's from a legal perspective. As for what you actually think of the research itself, and the credibility of the subject, this is something each individual reader will have to decide for himself. And in the end, your opinion and the soles of my shoes are about equal.
Have a nice day.
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@Pazuzu You are doing nothing wrong posting someone else's intellectual property on this forum. I'm free to state this is not your intellectual property which some of the active members in this thread seem to think. I'm free to state this theory is 30 years old and has been academically laughed at as a nationalist form of revisionism ever since. If you really want to prove Salibi was onto some objective truth, I suggest you take a shovel and start digging in Yemen. I would be most interested in those findings. So far, this post contains nothing new. It's the same PLO/fatah rewriting of history we know they used to discredit the Israeli claims to the territory.
One would think seeing the errors of shia and sunni sectarianism from the perspective of Quran alone, one would be so wise as to refrain from conflating political ambitions with Quranic interpretation. It has never led to any good.
Peace
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Here is a suggestion since you seem so concerned about the number of "BELIEVE(RS) in Pazuzus garbages", why don't you do a real statistic of that, not simply a wholesale appreciation which divests it of scientific value. A real scientific statistic founded also in an accurate definition of what is intended in the word "believe". Otherwise you sound like mere humbug, which is not really worthy of you.
If you are saying somebody believes in Pazuzus garbage might sound ofensive or insulting. If you give a proper technical definition of a "believer in Pazuzus garbage" would make more like your exigences when it comes to scientific stuff and bla, bla, bla...
Be up to your own level so you can admire you and ?who knows? "believe" in your garbage which you seem to think is way above Pazuzus garbage.
Salaam
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?No! ?Political ambitions? ?Oh no! My God, politcal ambitions. ?Oh, my God! Political ambitions.
?I am ever so shocked!
I have the impresion another two have joined Hadithete comic club in the forum. Everybosy here pushing politics and suddenly a culpprit has been found to brand as the great devil of political fraud in the forum.
I find your attitude disgusting, but nevertheless, comical. Keep the fun going.
And you keep silent on the Qur'an. Pazuzu has brought proofs from the Qur'an to bear his research, YOU pretentiously keep off it, because you have nothing to support your claims except bad, readings of the very work you judge, your ignorance and your own political bias, which of course you do no call bias, because you seemingly by divine decree are like the pope, infallible and giver of titles of good history and bad history and this and that.
You really impress me but not for good.
Salaam
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Well he believes in the official lame history, and invisible beings of superstition for jinn.
People also ought to take a look in old classical Arabic dictionaries regarding jinn. They may make interesting discoveries.
Salaam
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Here is a suggestion since you seem so concerned about the number of "BELIEVE(RS) in Pazuzus garbages", why don't you do a real statistic of that, not simply a wholesale appreciation which divests it of scientific value. A real scientific statistic founded also in an accurate definition of what is intended in the word "believe". Otherwise you sound like mere humbug, which is not really worthy of you.
To me history is not about belief. It's about archeological evidence. The truth is there have been zero archeological findings supporting this whole theory of Salibi. You keep referring to it as pazuzu's theory even though even he himself admits he has been doing nothing but regurgitating existing theory in a suspense style thriller format that clearly works for some. What's different from the original theory is that pazuzu's reiteration of it is not ashamed to try to hide the anti-zionist rethoric it belongs to. If you dislike people reacting to political tainted revisionism please do more effort in hiding or even better removing your political ambitions. Throughout the whole thread you will find him blaming the zionists for a conspiracy that stole muslims of their supposedly authentic history. If people don't care about scientific standards when researching history there is little I can change about that. They probably enjoy fairytales as well. Nothing wrong with that just dont be a poser and present it as hard science.
Peace
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Well he believes in the official lame history, and invisible beings of superstition for jinn.
People also ought to take a look in old classical Arabic dictionaries regarding jinn. They may make interesting discoveries.
Salaam
This made me laugh, reading this from the most famous linguistic revisionist on this forum.
Peace bro
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For those interested in some academic criticism on Salibi's work, here's a pointer from Corrie Block
http//i.imgur.com/94kN9f9.png
Peace
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Some more archeological evidence that is totally ignored by Salibi
http//i.imgur.com/kiSBcCd.png
Peace
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Armana letters
http//i.imgur.com/a1E1V0p.png
Peace
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@Pazuzu If you really want to prove Salibi was onto some objective truth, I suggest you take a shovel and start digging in Yemen. I would be most interested in those findings.
I suggest the same bravo
I sincerely hope, you can acquire the funding. Whenever you acquire one, you can bring leeman along, as he always 'whining' about the funding. You may also bring brother huruf or any of your supporter, as an journalist, to make documents on whatever your find by your own shovel in maqams kamal kalibi !
Peace.
here's pointer maybe you can find good quality one instead
https//preachrr.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/pick-shovel-cross.jpg -
Huruf is a sister!
Kakak huruf itu perempuan, lho. Jangan kaget yaa. D
Oya, selamat datang di forum ya, kak. )
Salaam.
oh ok my bad, then probably it may best to bring umbrella and skin protection cream, should sister huruf decide to come along on pazuzu expedition
Sama sama ya )
Salam
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Peace,
As bro Pazuzu wrote
There you go, brothers and sisters. You heard it from their own mouths. The scientific truth shows no mercy towards our traditional beliefs. The truth is sharp, and makes no comprimise for anyone. (The real serpent swallows up the illusion of the dancing ropes). The truth KILLS. If only the Hadithists would listen to Hertzog! But it must be hard?very hard?for those who have taken conjecture as the authority over the truth. And until they think again, ?until they swallow that red pill?they will linger in their delusions forever.
It is not surprising as MORONS EXITED THEN, EXITS NOW AND WILL EXIT IN THE FUTURE, they cannot accept the TRUTH. They are following their own assumption and conjectures without realizing that its nothing more but blatant Jewish lies!.
Bro Pazuzu not only quote Kamal Salibi, who is in fact an EXPERT in Middle Eastern History but many others such as Fadhel Al-Rubaye'e and Taha Hussain. These people are / were true historians. Let me quote Pazuzu'
Have you ever heard of Taha Hussain?
He was an Egyptian literary genius who wrote many books on history, folklore, and Arabian poetry. He was announced an apostate (kafir) by the mullahs of Al-Azhar university in Cairo. Do you know why? It is because he doubted the historicity of the current-day Maccah, or that Abraham was even in that region, and called for archeological excavations to be conducted to confirm the traditions.
Here is a photo of him
Taha Hussein (1889-1973)
He also wrote a highly controversial book (which I am now trying to get my hands on), in which he PROVED, beyond doubt, that the so-called ?Jahiliyya Poetry? is NOT pre-Islamic poetry at all. By examining the style of the verses and their contents, he concluded that it could not have been produced before the Quran. As a result, he ASSUMEDthat this type of poetry was in fact invented during the Abbasid Era and projected backwards onto a false time period, in order to invent legendary deeds and lineages for the Arabian tribes, which they could boast of in their poetry. In fact, there was an article posted here on FM (not sure if it was by brother Ayman or Layth), which also discusses the fact that Jahiliyyah poetry was not in fact pre-Islamic.
The proofs that Taha Hussein presented regarding the authenticity of his findings were so powerful, that the intellectually bankrupt "ulema" of Al-Azhar were placed in a corner, and could not refute him. So they resorted to their usual response insults and takfeer. Another late Egyptian scholar (I think it was Nasr Hamed Abu Zayd) made an allusion to how Taha Hussein pretty much "destroyed" the Azhar scholars.
But there is one thing Taha Hussein may not have noticed. A piece of the puzzle that slipped by him...
It is not the history of the Jahiliyya Poetry that was hijacked. No. The "pre-Islamic" poets that they taught us about in school, like Zuheir Bin Abi Salmah, Tarafa, Umru' al-Qays, and others, were not inventions by the Abbasids. They actually lived around 400-500 AD. What Taha Hussein failed to grasp, is that it is the QURAN that has been hijacked and its history projected forward in time, thus creating the delusion that Jahiliyyah poetry was pre-Islamic.
So basically, Taha Hussein (along with Ayman or Layth) were 100% correct in his assessment regarding Jahiliyya Poetry, only the conclusion he reached was wrong, because he had the preconceived notion that the Quran was revealed around 600 AD.
Fadhel Al-Rubaye'e quote
Dr.Fadel al-Rubaie denied any relationship of any kind between the Torah and Palestine, stressing that the names, places and events that came in the Torah are Yemeni names and locations, and some still exist even today.
He denies strongly that Joshua Ben-Nun had crossed the Jordan River to Jericho, and inscriptions and figures available indicate that Joshua Ben-Nun actually travelled to the land of Yemen.
This was all said in a lecture given by Dr Rubaie on Tuesday evening in the Jordanian Writers Association Forum moderated by Dr Hisham Ghassib.
..Al-Rubaie in his lecture spoke of the need to re-correct the region's history, and on top of that the history of Palestine, which requires corrections to the historical narrative promoted by Orientalists that are based in their stories of the Torah that they read misleadingly. He stressed that Jerusalem is not Jerusalem, and Jews have no trace in the Palestinian territories, and if there is housing in Palestine from the Jews it is from the sons of the Arab tribes that migrated from Arabian Peninsula.
...Israel want to revive the Hebrew language, originally a Greek dialect.
The lecture included a heavy presence of intellectuals and other interested members.
Al Akhbar interviewed him last year and he said?Give me one example in which old Jerusalem is mentioned in the Torah.? He notes that the city used to be called Ilia not Jerusalem. Therefore, there is no narrative text on Jerusalem prior to the Islamic conquest.
In the entire Tanach, which mentions Jerusalem about 700 times, Josephus, the Christian scriptures and Not to mention the Dead Sea Scrolls, are full of lies!
The Torah, according to what al-Rubai has documented, refers to old Jerusalem as located in Yemen and not in Palestine. He explains, ?This is what the Assyrian and Babylonian inscriptions have proven, for they refer to nine enslavement campaigns that took place in Yemen, not Palestine.? But why have historical narratives documented that the Babylonian enslavement incident as having occurred in Palestine?
Al-Rubai, who authored The Truth Behind the Babylonian Enslavement, says, ?The reason lies in the monopoly over this tragic story, which was later used in the Holocaust narrative as a continuation of the historical persecution of the Jews, thus reinforcing their role as historical victims. All we need to do is to go back to the history of al-Tabari, which clearly mentions that Nebuchadnezzar?s invasion was of Yemen and not Palestine.?
Based on these controversial revelations, al-Rubai solidly concludes in his thesis that Judaism is an old Arabic religion, and the Torah is a Yemeni "book". He also concludes that old Jerusalem is not present-day Jerusalem. It is located in Yemen and not Asir, as the late intellectual Kamal al-Salibi concluded in his book The Bible Came from Arabia.
Al-Rubai says, ?I am not under the illusion that these ideas will prevail soon, given the presence of an enormous media power that dominates the historical narrative. It is enough to seek the documentation of our history from a critical perspective, away from the Orientalist lie. Perhaps what Edward Said has accomplished in that regard has shaken this perception to a great extent.?
Yes, this is the state of Arab intellectualism. The Jews are so powerful that they have managed to retroactively change history itself in order to profit from the Holocaust!
Peace