Who Was the Pharoah of Moses
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Yes, please continue.
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Noon the Plume...
I swear by Allah's name that I did not understand a single word of your post. PLEASE try to make it more simple... Try explaining it with your own words.
Pazuzu
Thought it was simple. Google Amarna letters/tablets (1350s ? 1330s BCE)
Click this link to read letters ---> http//www.specialtyinterests.net/eae.html
Rib Addi to a chief
EA#95 vd(53) mentions Aman and Baalat of Gubla; mentions houses, Amri, Adi-, king of Mt, Ami; says `Let g (sar) of Eypt (Miisri) sen hs deputy to me'Egypt or mi-i-ri appears all over the letters; do a search for transliteration here
http//oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amarna/corpus
Peace
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Anyway, I don't know if I should even bother continuing this thread....
Salaam Pazuzu
It is not first time that I have read your posts I also believe your finding about Marium, sister of Aron, made more sense. I too have seen programmes about Palestine having no link to what's in the Torah and also saw a programme about Yemen and a city discoved there with ritual baths which was taken by jews but it's thanks to your showing clearly all proofs that we now know. In the same series they alos showed where kingdom of Sheba existed and said that excavation showed the garden which matched the description given in the Qur'an.
However there are people on this forum who are desprate to prove that Prophet Mohmad did not exist so for them its a bomb shell, and that is why they claim but since I don't believe in ahaditg this 'proof' is absurd.
Please continue as many are looking forward to your post
Jazakallah Khair -
Noon the Plume...
I swear by Allah's name that I did not understand a single word of your post. PLEASE try to make it more simple... Try explaining it with your own words.
Dear "WhereIsTheTruth"
Let's say the letter was forged and Muhamad (P) didn't write it. That still doens't change the fact that Egypt was called "al-Qybt" by the Arabs, when the Quran was revealed. If I wanted to forge a letter and claim that Muhamad wrote it, I would have to at least take a precaution and make sure that the names I am attributing tuo him did in fact exist during his time.
Let's say someone, living 100 years after the Prophet, forged that letter....How could he possibly give that land a name that didn;t even exist back then?
Anyway, I don't know if I should even bother continuing this thread....
Brother
your argument is still flawed brother, because you use lies to proove something. How can you rely on sonething unreliable? And secondly it does not matter what the Arabs called or calls Egypt for they have altered their language many times , and location name can change for a period for example the indian city was called bombay but suddenly caed mumbai. What matters is what muhammed - if that was his named - used to call egypt, and the only resources you have available is a bunch of myths and fabrications attributed to a muhammed. In short, yiur arguments are only valid if you take AHADITH serious and as reliable sources. Otherwise you must use the quran in order to proove that Egypt isnt masr.Having said all this, I am very impressed by your affords of discoveting the quranic secrets. We can sometimes be wrong and sometimes right but what matter Is that We try to do researches and investigations like you do.
So, i am looking forward to read more from you, god willing. -
I will continue this thread..
Let me start by clearing a few things out, first
Otherwise you must use the quran in order to proove that Egypt isnt masr.
I most certainly will. Until now, I have relied only on a few maps, traces from Arab traditions, and some realities on the ground. Once we get to the serious parts (archeology + analysis of the Quranic verses), you will deduce by yourself that the word "misr" is NOT a proper noun, nor does it indicate a country, and that the geography of the events mentioned in chapter 12 of the Quran (which relates the story of the prophet Joseph) could not possibly have taken place in Egypt. They took place in a mountainous country, and along a trade route.
I would also like to point out tht root mSr in ?rabic has a meaning which deals with settlement, settlements, cities, populated and built areas. It is quite possible, s is now th csase in Egypt that a populated and built place, specially big, like Cairo, be called MaSr. My guess is that it is that its use as a proper name is an extension of its primary meaning. So a settlement, you call that the settlement par excellence, the one you have at hand, the one which is important to you.
At last, the voice of reason has spoken! You have lept ahead of me there.
Even today, our fellow Egyptians (both Christians and Muslims) when they are travelling to Cairo, they will say "We are going down to 'misr'". However, as soon as they reach Cairo, they drop the word 'misr' from their speech, and switch to Cairo instead!
Isn't that strange? There is something deep-rooted in the memory of all Egyptians, which causes them to link their capital, Cairo, with the word "misr". And this thing originated with the Arab conquest of Egypt, which happened some 20 years after Muhamad's (P) death, as you will soon see.
@Noon dhe plume
First thing you should know is that the Quran did NOT borrow words from any other language. Arabic doesn't need to borrow any words from Greek, because Arabic is eons older than Greek. It's the other way around, actually. Stecchini was right.
The reason some people THINK there are non-Arabic words in the Quran is purely due to their ignorance of the Arabic roots. And this ignorance also causes them to produce supernatural and mythological interpretations for it.For example
IF you look at most translations of the Quran, you will see that the word "Iblees" is kept as it is - untranslated - because it is perceived as a proper noun of a supernatural creature. These same people will tell you that the Quran borrowed it from the Greek word "di-abolos" (diablos). This is absolutely ridiculous and unfounded. The word "Iblees" comes from the root verb "balasa" . From it, we can derive the plural adjective "mublisoon" as well as the wrod "Iblas" , which denotes a certain mental or emotional state DESPAIR.
{Surely, the criminals will abide in the retribution of jahannam * It will not be removed from them; and they will be full of despair (mublisoon) therein}.... 4374,75
{Until We open for them a door of immense retribution, then they become full of despair (mublisoon)}.... 237
It is obvioulsy an original Arabic word (and a common noun, at that) or else how can you explain all its derivatives?
Another Example
The word "Shaytan" is thought of as a non-Arabic word, taken from the Latin "Satanicus" (Satan).
HOGWASH!!
It's the other way around. Latin took it from Arabic. The word comes from the root verb "Shatana" , which means to go far, or become distant. The Arabic expression "Bi'r shatoon" means "deep well" (a well whose bottom is very far and distant). Hence, al-Shaytan is the tendency inside each and everyone of us to "distance ourself from the universal divine laws". And as a result of this, we end up in despair (state of "iblas", from which comes "iblees".
I can give you dozens of examples, but since Arabic is not your mother tongue, you probably won't understand what I'm jabbering about. Besides, I don't want to stray from the subject, anyway.
Now concerning the Amarna Tablets, first thing you need to know is that they were not written in Hieroglyphic, but in cuniform Akkadian, which appears to have been the language of diplomacy back then. The word "MISR" does NOT exist in the Ancient Egyptian language, and no trace of it appears in any hieroplyphic ruins (nor does the word "Pharoah" for you information). I can say this with 100% confidence.
It is a Semitic word, as Huruf pointed out, but there is no proof that it was the proper noun for the Nile country, in teh Akkadian language. And even if it was, it is totally irrelevent to our argument, because the Quran is quoting Pharoah directly
{And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people O my people, do I not possess the kingship of ?Misr?, and these rivers that flow under me? Do you not see?}?
It is Pharoah himself who is speaking there. So, if we are assuming that Pharoah was king of the Nile Valley, this means that he was calling his own land "Misr", and expecting his people (teh listeners) to understand him. If you scroll back up to my first post, you will note that the methodology we built the entire search on was to ask the people of EGYPT ITSELF, what THEY called their land in the old times. Not what OTHER people called it. So if the Accadians called Egypt "Misr", I could care less, and it it is totally irrelevent to our discusion, because Pharoah was not a mesopotamian ruler. There is ZERO archeological proof in Egypt itself, that the land was ever called "Misr" BY THE EGYPTIANS THEMSELVES. Every evidence found suggests either "Kheme", "Keme" or "Kemet" as the name of the land, with "Koptos" as a possible adjective for it.
I too have seen programmes about Palestine having no link to what's in the Torah and also saw a programme about Yemen and a city discoved there with ritual baths which was taken by jews but it's thanks to your showing clearly all proofs that we now know. In the same series they alos showed where kingdom of Sheba existed and said that excavation showed the garden which matched the description given in the Qur'an.
My friend, there are secrets burried under Asir and Yemen that we could only dream of. Arabia has not seen 1% of what it deserves in terms of archeological excavation. Once that land is allowed to speak, and spill forth its contents, you can rest assured that it will turn everything we know about history upside down. The Saudi and Yemeni rulers are sitting on their asses having no idea what is burried under their feet. The reason they don't dig is not because they don't want to "violate the sacntity of the dead"". This is just an excuse.
It's because they are AFRAID. Afraid of what they may find.
But the memory of the people who live in those areas, contains all the stories of the prophets whom we have always thought lived elsewhere.
Peace....
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Salam,
Not to spoil this story, but the Quran does use the title "Pharoh" when speaking of the King of Egypt during the time of Moses - which, unless I have misread the facts, was the title used by the rulers of the land known as "Egypt".
As for the comment that "Misr" is not found in any ancient maps...I would say that since the Quran refers to "Misr" as the name of the land at the time of Jospeh and Moses, that is the time period that needs to be studied as the kingdom of Egypt crumbled after Moses. Also, the name is an Arabic one, which means we need Arabic maps since if we look at the Roman maps and search for "Yathrib" or "Misr" we may get "Marcodoba" and "Egypt" as their Latin alternatives.
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In a Spanish language forum in which I participate, we have a colleague who has sustainedly upheld that every single word in the Qur'an is radically Arabic, and that many that are taken to be proper names are indeed qualifications, names or descriptions of the object or person following Arabic roots. Up to now I have found his analysis an explanations through and convincing and they do make a lot of sense as to the content of the Qur'an.
Salaam
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@Noon dhe plume
First thing you should know is that the Quran did NOT borrow words from any other language. Arabic doesn't need to borrow any words from Greek, because Arabic is eons older than Greek. It's the other way around, actually. Stecchini was right.
The reason some people THINK there are non-Arabic words in the Quran is purely due to their ignorance of the Arabic roots. And this ignorance also causes them to produce supernatural and mythological interpretations for it.Peace Pazuzu,
All languages evolved over time or are you claiming Arabic is the original language of mankind and had words like dirhams the Romans Egypt before currency and those people existed?
Now concerning the Amarna Tablets, first thing you need to know is that they were not written in Hieroglyphic, but in cuniform Akkadian, which appears to have been the language of diplomacy back then. The word "MISR" does NOT exist in the Ancient Egyptian language, and no trace of it appears in any hieroplyphic ruins (nor does the word "Pharoah" for you information). I can say this with 100% confidence.
It is a Semitic word, as Huruf pointed out, but there is no proof that it was the proper noun for the Nile country, in teh Akkadian language. And even if it was, it is totally irrelevent to our argument, because the Quran is quoting Pharoah directly
{And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people O my people, do I not possess the kingship of ?Misr?, and these rivers that flow under me? Do you not see?}?
It is Pharoah himself who is speaking there. So, if we are assuming that Pharoah was king of the Nile Valley, this means that he was calling his own land "Misr", and expecting his people (teh listeners) to understand him. If you scroll back up to my first post, you will note that the methodology we built the entire search on was to ask the people of EGYPT ITSELF, what THEY called their land in the old times. Not what OTHER people called it. So if the Accadians called Egypt "Misr", I could care less, and it it is totally irrelevent to our discusion, because Pharoah was not a mesopotamian ruler. There is ZERO archeological proof in Egypt itself, that the land was ever called "Misr" BY THE EGYPTIANS THEMSELVES. Every evidence found suggests either "Kheme", "Keme" or "Kemet" as the name of the land, with "Koptos" as a possible adjective for it.
Akkadian, a Semitic language and correspondences sent to Egypt calling them Misri is not a proof?
Qur?an is translations of what people said or perhaps answer who?s talking throughout chapter 18; was the two horns an Arab and people he encountered are being quoted verbatim in Arabic?
1894 they said O you the two horns
Peace
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Salam to all, hope everyone is doing fine.
I might be wrong, but I think what Pazuzu is trying to bring across are some researches done by Dawood, Kamal Sabili, Ziad Mouna to name a few.
Here's a link to an article which might be of interest to better understand Pazuzu. Would be interesting to know what you guys think of the article.
link http//www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx
Peace
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The Arabic in Qur'an is actually a translation of the language spoken back then and uses borrowed words; e.g. drachma or Greek coin at time of revelation did not exist in ancient Egypt (i.e. Mi'ra) another borrowed word.
How so? What does it mean?
I understand that The Quran is not a history book, but a book on religion, so, not too much historic accuracy is needed, but still, are you suggesting that there is some discrepancy or falsehood? -
@ Jeffry
So what's your point? I did say, at the start of this thread, that I was posting a summary and translation of an Arabic e-book by the title "Call of the Surat". The link you posted takes you to the orginal Arabic document, which most members here cannot read.
I am doing a favor to non-Arabic speakers, since the original Arabic version is available for FREE, anyway. I never claimed that I came up with these ideas.
If you are bothered by this, I will stop this thread. (That suits me anyway, and saves me all the trouble).
Let's go on now....
- Pharoah or Pharoas?
Since the only reliable source of information for Muhamad (P) concerning the identity of Pharoah was the Quran, let us then return to Allah?s scripture and read it carefully, and with reflection. The first thing that strikes us is the fact that the Quran NEVER mentions ?Pharoahs? in the plural form. There was only ONE person, mentioned in the Quran, who went by that name or title, and that person was EXCLUSIVELY the tyrant during Moses? time.
Yet how did the misguided Muslims deal with this truth? They transformed the singular into plural, thus sending the wrong message to their awareness, by using the term ?Pharaos? in the plural, until eventually, it became ?common knowledge? among the masses that there was more than one Pharoah!
So let us read the Quran carefully, and let its verses direct our beliefs, not the other way around. If you go to the search box in the Freeminds Quran translation and type in the word ?Pharaoh? (and by the way the correct spelling is Pharoah, not Pharaoh) it will give you all the Chapters and verses in which this name appears. The word ?Pharoah? appears no less than 50 times in the Quran, and not ONCE does it appear in the plural noun. You can go and check anytime you like.
One of the great delusions of our time is that there were over 100 Pharoahs who ruled Egypt, starting from king Narmer, and ending with Cleopatra. The great catastrophy that we are not aware of is that the Quran completely denies this, and tells us very clearly that after Pharoah and his men drowned, the Israelites eventually inherited the entire land!
Open your eyes and read this{And We let the people who were weak inherit the east of the land and the west of it which We have blessed. And the good word of your Lord was completed towards the Children of Israel for their patience; and We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people were doing, and what they contrived}?
{So Pharaoh sent gatherers to the cities * "These are but a small band." * "And they have done what has enraged us." * "And we are all gathered and forewarned." * So, We evicted them out of gardens and springs * And treasures and an honorable station * As thus, We made the Children of Israel inherit it}?
What have we here? Something that the Muslims have never paid attention to, unfortunately. The Quran is telling us that the Israelites INHERITED everything that Pharoah left behind! Has anyone in this world ever even heard a passing reference of Bani Israel having inherited or ruled the land of ?Egypt? around 1300 BC? (the presumed date of Moses).
This is why, in the entire Quran, we do not see the name or title ?Pharoah? ever mentioned before or after Moses? time. The proof Go and read Chapter 12 of the Quran, which recounts the story of the Prophet Joseph. Allah?s book ? which the Muslims have thrown behind their backs ? tells us that the title of the ruler of the land during Joseph?s time was ?Al-Malik? (the king). And his assistant was titled ?Al-Aziz? (meaning He Who Has High Station ? or something of the sort). THERE IS NO MENTION OF PHAROAH ANYWHERE DURING JOSEPH?S TIME, even though it is presumed that Joseph came 150-200 years before Moses.
No, my dear brothers and sisters. There was only ONE PHAROAH, and that is EXCLUSIVELY the title of the tyrant who persecuted Moses and his followers. Try to imagine this One of the Kings of England (Edward) was labeled ?Longshank? by the people. (Maybe he had a physical deformity, or his ?arm was long? ? meaning he stole too much from the treasury). Does this mean that ALL the kings of England who came after him must also be called ?Longshanks?, just because one of them bore that title? Of course not! And yet, for some reason, that?s exactly what the Muslims did to the rulers of the place referred to in the Quran as ?misr?. They projected the title of ONE PARTICULAR RULER, ?Pharoah?, to all those who ruled before and after him!! This is a complete fallacy and is a screaming contradiction to what the Quran is telling us. How the Hell could there be other Pharoahs? The man drowned along with his followers, and died, and that?s it.
Where are our brains?
So where do we look for this tyrant then?
Do we look for him in Egypt? Absolutely not. There is ZERO archeological evidence of there ever having been a ?Moses? or ?Israelites? in the land of the Nile. Not one shred of evidence has ever been uncovered to even remotely suggest this.
The next question is- When did Moses (P) live?
Historians can?t really pin-point the exact date. If you read everything that was ever written about this subject, you will find yourself in the range of anywhere between 1500 BC and 1200 BC, with 1250 BC as the approximate date of the Great Exile (as the Jews call it).
So now, let us check out the names of all the rulers of Egypt (since we are assuming Moses was there) in that time period, to see who the possible candidates for Pharoah are. We found that the period coincides with the 18th and 19th DynastiesHere follows the name of the ruler, his given title as shown in the hieroglyphic writings, (in brackets) and the year of his reign, as is agreed upon by the vast majority of experts on this issue
18th Dynasty
- Ahmose I (Neb-Bahti-Ra) 1550 ? 1525 BC
- Imhotep I (Jesr-Ka-Ra) 1525 ? 1504 BC
- Tahutmose I (Aa-Khabr-Ka-Ra) 1504 BC ? 1492 BC
- Tahutmose II (Aa-Khabr-An-Ra) ???? (alternated with his successor)
- Tahutmose III (Men-Khabr-Ra) ???? (alternated with his precedor)
- Hatshepsut ? queen (Maat ? Kara) 1473 ? 1458 BC
- Imhotep II (Aa-Khabro-Ra) 1427 ? 1401 BC
- Tahutmose IV (Men-Khabro-Ra) 1401 ? 1391 BC
- Imhotep III (Neb-Maat-Ra) 1391 ? 1353 BC
- Imhotep IV (Akhnaton) 1353 BC (labeled a madman / started a religious revolution/ didn?t last long)
- Nefer Khebro (Wa-An-Ra) 1353 ? 1335 BC
- Semenkara (Aankh-Khabro-Ra) 1335 ? 1333 BC (was assassinated)
- Tutankhamon (Unknown) 1333 ? 1324 BC (rose to the throne at the age of 9, and died at age 1
- Ai (Khabro-Ra) 1323 ? 1319 BC
- Hor-Mheb (Jesr-Khabro-Ra) 1319 ? 1307 BC
19th Dynasty
- Ramses I (Men-Bahty-Ra) 1306 ? 1307 BC
- Seti I (Men-Maat-Ra) 1306 ? 1290 BC
- Ramses II (Osir-Maat-Ra-Setep-An-Ra) 1290 ? 1224 BC (#1 Candidate for THE Pharoah)
- Merneptah (Ban-Ra-Hotep-Er-Maat) 1224 ? 1214 BC (#2 candidate for THE Pharoah)
- Seti II (Osir-Khebro-Ra-Setep-An-Ra) 1214 BC ? 1204 BC
- Amonmes (unknown) 1204 (led a short-lived rebellion; didn?t last long)
- Septah (unknown) 1204 ? 1198 BC
- Towsert ? queen (unknown) 1198 ? 1196 BC
There, you have in front of you the names of more than 20 of Egypt?s rulers, covering a time span of over 300 years, to guarantee that the age of Moses (P) falls within the reign of one of them.
I ask you now Do you see, in the above list of names or titles anything that even remotely resembles the word ?pharaoh?? Can you twist any of the above names or titles to make it into ?pharaoh??
We should note here that the Jews usually point to Ramses II as the most likely candidate for the tyrant who persecuted Moses (P). Do you see in Ramses? name or title (Osir-Maat-Ra-Setep-An-Ra) anything that resembles the word ?pharoah??In addition, please note that the titles of these rulers, as was discovered from the translation of the Hieroglyphic murals, always carry the meaning of servitude or glorification to their prime deity, ?Ra? (note how the name ?Ra? is common in every one of the titles). So for example, the king of Egypt would be addressed as such Ramses II, Eternal Servant of Ra. Or, for example Seti II , Watchful Eye of Ra, etc? And thes titles always came AFTER the name of the king, not before it. How is it possible that they carried these titles of servitude and glorification to their deity, when the Quran says, from the tongue of Pharoah himself
{And Pharaoh said "O you elites! I have not known of any rabb for you other than me! O Haman, fire-up the mud (clay) and make for me a high platform, so perhaps I may take a look at the god of Moses; though I think he is one of the liars." }?
And When he says
{I am your supreme rabb} ??
Is the Quran talking about a king of the Nile Valley? Or are we missing something?? Did the Egyptians build their high platforms and lofty temples from mud hardened by fire? Or did they make them from solid stones?
There is only one spot of land on the entire planet that has been known to make skyscrapers from mud, and to have them endure for hundreds of years, and it is not Egypt. Soon I will show you where that land is.The great Syrian scholar of mythology and ancient religions, Dr. Firas al Sawwah, in his book entitled ?The Torah and Ancient Near East? ? on page 98, says
??As for the date of the Exile, there is a general consensus that it was around 1260 BC, during the time of Ramses II?.However, despite the enormous effort made by archeologists in trying to find a historic basis for this story, they have failed miserably, and the thousands of hieroglyphic texts unearthed in Egypt have remained silent on this event that is so central and paramount in the Torah?To even think that 600,000 persecuted slaves escaped through the delta area and made their way across any body of water towards the Sinai desert, where they succeeded in causing the ?Pharoah? himself to drown, and that the records of that period ? which is considered the most richly and intricately documented period in the history of Egypt ? did not mention ANYTHING about such an event, is out of the question?.
The Exile from Egypt is a myth. It never happened.
What is even more shocking is the following fact There is absolutely no proof ? and I mean ZERO PROOF ? that the title of ?Pharoah? was ever used to describe the rulers of Egypt!! That?s right, brothers and sisters. You heard it right. If you review the names and titles of ALL the rulers of united Egypt, from King Narmer in 3020 BC, all the way to the year 332 BC when the Greeks conquered Egypt, you will not find a single trace of the word ?Pharoah? ANYWHERE in Egypt. Not on the walls of the temple?not on the murals of the pyramids?not in the papyrus documents or diplomatic letters sent to and from Egypt?NOT ANYWHERE doe the title ?Pharoah? exist in Egypt.
The people of Egypt did not name their rulers ?Pharoah?. Moreover, that word doesn?t even fit with the phonetics of the ancient Egyptian tongue. It is totally ALIEN to their culture. This word was hijacked and forced into ancient Egyptian culture by means of a great forgery which we will soon expose to you. The modern experts in the field of hieroglyphics tried in vain, for many long years, to find even one word in the political protocols of Egypt that is anywhere close to the word ?Pharoah? which appears in the Torah, until finally, after some agonizing efforts, they found a single, orphan solution to the problem. In fact, this solution was the accomplishment of one man, a scholar by the name of James Henry, who claimed the following
?And so, as the years passed, the Egyptian people began to call the government ?The Great House?. Then, eventually, it became the title of the king. And this title, in their ancient language, was pronounced ?br-aa?. And the Israelis later on adopted it as ?Pharoah??and how numerous were the symbolic and figurative adjectives that the subjects of the Egyptian court used to describe their king!?
There you have it folks! The origin of the corruption.
Are you convinced by Mr. Henry?s claim?The claim that the compound hieroglyphic expression ?br-aa? (meaning the Great House or Great Court) was the origin of the word Pharoah is not only false (which is why most objective academics have rejected it), but is also plain comical and downright ridiculous, as we will soon prove. The goal of Mr. Henry and others of his ilk, in propagating this lie, was to force the word ?Pharoah? into the culture of the ancient Egyptians, at any cost and by any means, in order to give historic credence to the claim that the events described in the Torah took place in Egypt.
On this occasion, I would like to address the Muslims, who claim that they resort to the Quran for guidance by saying If you accept the twisted logic of Mr. Henry, then you have to accept that when Allah told Moses (P){Go to Pharoah, for he has transgressed}?
Allah actually meant to say ?Go to the Great House, for he has transgressed?.
Are you confortable with this conclusion dear readers?The truth of the matter is that the word ?Pharoah? , which appears in the Quran as ?Far?oun? (exact transliteration Far3oun) is NOT the ?Hebrew? nor the Greek translation for ?br-aa?. It is nothing but a sad, and pathetic attempt to force the word ?Pharoah? into the culture of the Egyptians, for reasons that will soon become apparent to you.
You want more evidence that the title doesn?t exist?
Why don?t we take a look at some translated Hieroglyphic cartouches, to see how the ancient Egyptian speech was actually pronounced, in order to see if the word ?br-aa? appears anywhere in the mention of the king. The following is a table which shows the translation of several cartouches, as examined on the pyramid murals, all of which mention the king. You will note that the cartouches have two words in common Hor (which is an allusion to Horus-Ra, their main deity), and Tetti which denotes the ?king?. I will show you the sentence in English, followed by the transliteration (actual pronunciation) in parenthesis.
Cartouche 563/A
?The mouth of the King is as incense, and the lips of the King are as myrrh? (djed merdu re en teti em senetjer sepeti teti em onetiu)
Cartouche 563 / B
?Descend, O King, to the field of your mate, Ka. To the field of your servants? (hhai teti em sekhet ka eke er sekhet hetep)
Cartouche 563 / C
?The food of the King is like the food on the ship of the god? (noret khefat net teti mi netjer depet)
Cartouche 564 / A
?The reign of the King is more than a year, and his servants more plenty than the Nile? (onekh teti ir renepet aut teti er hep)
Cartouche 609 / A
?O, King Osir, rise. Hor has come, and He calls you among the gods? (djed merdu usir teti pu oho ere k heru ip ef tju em o netjeru en tju heru).
Do you see the word ?Pharaoh? appearing on any of these cartouches?
Still not convinced? You think this is my own opinion? Here?s a few links you might want to check out
http//ashraf62.wordpress.com/2011/06/18/ancient-egypt-had-no-pharaohs-2/
http//www.aldokkan.com/society/pharaoh.htm
(read what it says in the 6th row of the table, under ?Titles?)Dear brothers and sisters I promise you that in years to come, more and more scientists and archeologists will come and have the courage to speak, and to expose one of the greatest delusions that humanity has ever known. The truth is beginning to dawn as we speak, and the awakening has begun.
Egypt had KINGS and QUEENS. It did NOT have ?Pharoahs?.
So now we come to the critical question Just what does the word mean?
Since I have shown you, in my response to member Noon dhe plume, that the Quran contains only Arabic words, and does not borrow ANYTHING from other languages, I will now tell you what the word ?Far3oun? actually means. If you are a native Arabic speaker, prepare yourself for the shock of your life
The word "Far3oun" is made up of the root + the suffix . Now if you go and open the old Arabic lexicons, and look up the meaning of the word ?Far3? , you will get
Far3 (verb) to lead the people or head the community
Far3 (noun) That which is high or standing tall.The suffix ?oun? used in Arabic to denote something small, or to belittle something.
Like for example Abd-Abdoun (a small ?adb?). Saad-Saadoun (a small ?saad?). Hamad-Hamdoun (a small ?hamad?). It is used mostly as a nickname for children. FOr example, if a kid is named "Zayd" , he gets the playful title "Zaydoun" (which means, mini Zayd, or small Zayd).But when used for an adult, and in a certain context, it can be demeaning and derogatory. And that is EXACTLY how the Quran meant it to be.
The word ?Far3oun? is not a ?Hebrew? or a Greek term. It is a 100% genuine Arabic word, which means ?Little Chief? or ?Small Leader?. In its essence, it is a demeaning and belittling title given to that tyrant, and has absolutely nothing to do with ?br-aa? (the Great House), and NOTHING to do with Egypt.
The events did not take place in the Nile country. WAKE UP FROM YOUR DELUSION.
?Far3oun? is the title given by the Quran to ONE and ONLY ONE person The chief or ?boss? of a fortified trade citadel, who persecuted Moses(P) and the Israelites.
And in time, I will show you where these events took place?
Peace....
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Salam Pazuzu,
In the first place, i was not bothered by your article, in fact i found it very interesting and am anxiously waiting for u to continue, and also your continuation on the other thread about Muhammad. Hence i cant figure out why your reply has a negative overtone.
by the way, i did post a 2nd link to the article which is in english. and the article is abt Misr NOT being Egypt.
Well anyway, carry on.
Peace
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Salam Pazuzu,
In the first place, i was not bothered by your article, in fact i found it very interesting and am anxiously waiting for u to continue, and also your continuation on the other thread about Muhammad. Hence i cant figure out why your reply has a negative overtone.
by the way, i did post a 2nd link to the article which is in english. and the article is abt Misr NOT being Egypt.
Well anyway, carry on.
Peace
Fair enough.
However, I do not agree with what that original article says concerning the birth place of Abraham (P). I don't believe that Abraham (P) was born in, or had anything to do with Mecca or the Hijaz area.
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{And Pharaoh said "O you elites! I have not known of any rabb for you other than me! O Haman, fire-up the mud (clay) and make for me a high platform, so perhaps I may take a look at the god of Moses; though I think he is one of the liars." }?
And When he says
{I am your supreme rabb} ??
Is the Quran talking about a king of the Nile Valley? Or are we missing something?? Did the Egyptians build their high platforms and lofty temples from mud hardened by fire? Or did they make them from solid stones?
Brother Pazuzu,
The Egyptians built bricks out of mud(clay) and reeds baked in the sun (or heated). The same thing which is said in the Quran
2838 Pharaoh said, "O commanders, I have not known of any god for you other than me. Therefore, O Haman, fire up(fa-awqid) the bricks (l-ni means clay) and build me a platform, so perhaps I may take a look at the god of Moses! I am certain he is a liar."
So where is the inconsistency you are talking about?
Regarding Haman and Pharaoh
http//www.answering-christianity.com/quran/samer_kadoura.htm
" It also made it possible to acquire the vital piece of information we are now discussing. The name "Haman" was in fact mentioned in old Egyptian tablets. It was mentioned on a monument which now stands in the Hof Museum in Vienna, and in which the closeness of Haman to the Pharaoh was emphasized. (Walter Wreszinski, ?gyptische Inschriften aus dem K.K. Hof Museum in Wien, 1906, J. C. Hinrichs' sche Buchhandlung)
The dictionary "The People in the New Kingdom" refers to Haman as "the head of the quarry workers". (Hermanne Ranke, Die style="mso-spacerun yes"> Augustin in Gl?ckstadt, Band I, 1935. Band II, 1952)
This discovery brought to light a truly astonishing fact. Haman was, contrary to what those who opposed the Qur'an claimed, really a man who had lived in Egypt during the Prophet Moses' time and furthermore, just as stated in the Qur'an, he was close to the Pharaoh and dealt with construction of sorts. "
{And We let the people who were weak inherit the east of the land and the west of it which We have blessed. And the good word of your Lord was completed towards the Children of Israel for their patience; and We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people were doing, and what they contrived}?
{So Pharaoh sent gatherers to the cities * "These are but a small band." * "And they have done what has enraged us." * "And we are all gathered and forewarned." * So, We evicted them out of gardens and springs * And treasures and an honorable station * As thus, We made the Children of Israel inherit it}?
What have we here? Something that the Muslims have never paid attention to, unfortunately. The Quran is telling us that the Israelites INHERITED everything that Pharoah left behind! Has anyone in this world ever even heard a passing reference of Bani Israel having inherited or ruled the land of ?Egypt? around 1300 BC? (the presumed date of Moses).
7137 We let the people who were oppressed inherit the east and the west of the land which We have blessed, and good word of your Lord was completed towards the Children of Israel. For they were patient, and We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people were doing, and what they contrived. (The land that they inherited was blessed)
The Children of Israel never inherited the lands of the Pharaohs (or as you call it the land of there oppressors). They went to another land or area to worship God. The land of there forefathers (Abraham , Issac and Jacob) This is implied in the story in Sura 5
520 Moses said to his people, "My people, remember God's favor upon you that he made amongst you prophets, and made you sovereigns, and he gave you what He had not given any from the worlds."
521 "O my people, enter the holy land that God Has decreed for you, and do not turn your backs, or you will become losers."
522 They said, "O Moses, in it are a mighty people, and we will not enter it until they leave. So when they leave, then we will enter it."
523 Among those who were afraid, two men whom God had blessed, said, "Enter upon them through the gate; when you enter it then you will be the victors. You shall put your trust in God if you had acknowledged."
524 They said, "O Moses, we will never enter it as long as they are in it, so go you and your Lord and fight, we will stay right here!" ( The land which they eventually inherited had MIGHTY PEOPLE. Which would imply that they may have to fight in order to obtain the land)
525 He said, "My Lord, I do not control except myself and my brother, so separate between us and between the wicked people."
526 He said, "Then it has become forbidden for them for forty years, and they will be lost in the land." Do not be sorrowful over the wicked people.
This same story is also found in the Bible where the two men were said to Joshua and Caleb. And yes the Children of Israel did become wandering tribe of people for forty years.
The Exile from Egypt is a myth. It never happened.
What is even more shocking is the following fact There is absolutely no proof ? and I mean ZERO PROOF ? that the title of ?Pharoah? was ever used to describe the rulers of Egypt!! That?s right, brothers and sisters. You heard it right. If you review the names and titles of ALL the rulers of united Egypt, from King Narmer in 3020 BC, all the way to the year 332 BC when the Greeks conquered Egypt, you will not find a single trace of the word ?Pharoah? ANYWHERE in Egypt. Not on the walls of the temple?not on the murals of the pyramids?not in the papyrus documents or diplomatic letters sent to and from Egypt?NOT ANYWHERE doe the title ?Pharoah? exist in Egypt.
The people of Egypt did not name their rulers ?Pharoah?. Moreover, that word doesn?t even fit with the phonetics of the ancient Egyptian tongue. It is totally ALIEN to their culture. This word was hijacked and forced into ancient Egyptian culture by means of a great forgery which we will soon expose to you. The modern experts in the field of hieroglyphics tried in vain, for many long years, to find even one word in the political protocols of Egypt that is anywhere close to the word ?Pharoah? which appears in the Torah, until finally, after some agonizing efforts, they found a single, orphan solution to the problem. In fact, this solution was the accomplishment of one man, a scholar by the name of James Henry, who claimed the following
Please this complete nonsense! How can you say the word "pharaoh" is not a name that the Egyptians used??? You have to remember that OTHER PEOPLE lived during the antiquities and had lived during the period when the Egyptians still had power(or were declining in power)! So the term "Pharaoh" had to have been a COMMON TERM back then used to describe the Egyptian rulers. The Egyptian empire WAS WELL KNOWN So alot of the simple things like what was the name of there leader was obviously known during the antiquities and EVERYONE ELSE THAT LIVED DURING THE FALL OF THE EGYPTIAN EMPIRE! Read the records of the Alexander's conquest and the empowerment of his subordinates after his death!!! Didn't Ptolemy (one of Alexander's subordinate) rule Egypt??? Do you think that he didn't know what the people called the ruler of Egypt??? Are you serious brother?
Also remember that Ptolemy's time was before the rise of Roman empire. The history is there as proof in prominent cultures The Egyptians fell during the period of Emperor Augustus!
Also why are you surprised brother that there is no proof of Moses ever existing in Egypt? What person who has high esteemed for there culture would record anything about a man with a stick defeating an empire. Isn't that cause for shame????
Peace,
Kevin.
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Yet how did the misguided Muslims deal with this truth? They transformed the singular into plural, thus sending the wrong message to their awareness, by using the term ?Pharaos? in the plural, until eventually, it became ?common knowledge? among the masses that there was more than one Pharoah!
So let us read the Quran carefully, and let its verses direct our beliefs, not the other way around. If you go to the search box in the Freeminds Quran translation and type in the word ?Pharaoh? (and by the way the correct spelling is Pharoah, not Pharaoh) it will give you all the Chapters and verses in which this name appears. The word ?Pharoah? appears no less than 50 times in the Quran, and not ONCE does it appear in the plural noun. You can go and check anytime you like.
Please name one who made it plural.
It is 74 times in Grand Qur'aan.
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Salam,
awww...shucks....wrong link...hahahaha.
here's the right one.
http//www.tajdeed.org/article.aspx?id=10334
Peace jeffry -- a few snippets taken from the article...
Why are there no such references in the historical records of all ancient Egypt's contemporary neighboring civilizations to support the claim that their ancient neighbor was named "Misr", despite the active political and economical relationships between them?
quote earlier
Akkadian, a Semitic language and correspondences sent to Egypt calling them Misri is not a proof?The Arabian history and language provides further stunning personal information regarding Fir?awn himself which supports this finding. Ben Asaker, Ben Kathir and Al-Majlessy report the following information to the fact that Fir?awn was married to an Arabian lady ?? Fir?awn?s wife was Asia (اdaughter of Mozahim (م Ben Abdullah ( ه Ben Al Rayan (ن Ben Al Walid (د, Mozahim was Misr?s Fir?awn during Yuousf?s time?? These names are reported to have been confirmed by the prophet Mohamed (pbuh) himself..
Thus ends all scientific inquiry and we see from where the main presumption comes.
How so? What does it mean?
I understand that The Quran is not a history book, but a book on religion, so, not too much historic accuracy is needed, but still, are you suggesting that there is some discrepancy or falsehood?No, simply that Qur?an is translations of what people said and not always the actual verbatim Arabic.
1230 and said women in the city " woman the mighty seeking to seduce her youth about himself has infactuated her love indeed surely see her in error clear."
1243 and said the king "..." translation what the king said into Arabic, likewise...
4351 and called Pharaoh in his nation said " O my nation is not to me king Egypt and these the rivers flow from underneath do they not see?"
Since I have shown you, in my response to member Noon dhe plume, that the Quran contains only Arabic words, and does not borrow ANYTHING from other languages
Shown us where? I asked you where the Romans originated, Arabic?
What language did Dhul-Qarnayn and those people encountered, Arabic?
1892 furthermore followed a means
1893 until when he reached between the two barriers he found from a nation not hardly understand a saying
1894 they said " O you the two horns indeed Yajuj and Majuj corrupters in the earth so shall we offer to you expenditure on that you make between us and between them a barrier?" -
The word "Far3oun" is made up of the root + the suffix . Now if you go and open the old Arabic lexicons, and look up the meaning of the word ?Far3? , you will get
Far3 (verb) to lead the people or head the community
Far3 (noun) That which is high or standing tall.The suffix ?oun? used in Arabic to denote something small, or to belittle something.
Like for example Abd-Abdoun (a small ?adb?). Saad-Saadoun (a small ?saad?). Hamad-Hamdoun (a small ?hamad?). It is used mostly as a nickname for children. FOr example, if a kid is named "Zayd" , he gets the playful title "Zaydoun" (which means, mini Zayd, or small Zayd).But when used for an adult, and in a certain context, it can be demeaning and derogatory. And that is EXACTLY how the Quran meant it to be.
The word ?Far3oun? is not a ?Hebrew? or a Greek term. It is a 100% genuine Arabic word, which means ?Little Chief? or ?Small Leader?. In its essence, it is a demeaning and belittling title given to that tyrant, and has absolutely nothing to do with ?br-aa? (the Great House), and NOTHING to do with Egypt.
The events did not take place in the Nile country. WAKE UP FROM YOUR DELUSION.
Classical Arabic Lexicon refers it under four consonant Root
( ب
.Please quote reference/authority.
