I have a few questions I am a Christian by way ?

Bigmo

From Quran point of view, Prophet or 'Nabi' is the most elite of the elites thus he is the right person to look into the slavery issue. Guided by Quran, Muhammad does not put a stop to slavery. He rather preferred to dwell on other less important issues such as 'where-to-eat' issue which to me is totally nonsense.

2461 No blame is there upon the blind nor any blame upon the lame nor any blame upon the sick nor on yourselves if ye eat from your houses, or the houses of your fathers, or the houses of your mothers, or the houses of your brothers, or the houses of your sisters, or the houses of your fathers' brothers, or the houses of your fathers' sisters, or the houses of your mothers' brothers, or the houses of your mothers' sisters, or (from that) whereof ye hold the keys, or (from the house) of a friend. No sin shall it be for you whether ye eat together or apart. But when ye enter houses, salute one another with a greeting from Allah, blessed and sweet. Thus Allah maketh clear His revelations for you, that haply ye may understand

This 'where-to-eat' issue is nothing compare to slavery but Quran give more priority to the former issue. It is not acceptable for a book that claim to have solutions to mankind problems doesn't really want to put a stop to slavery.

2.177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing

76.5-6 And they give food in spite of love for it to the needy, the orphan, and the captive. , "We feed you only for the countenance of Allah . We wish not from you reward or gratitude.

Have you seen him who denies the religion? He is the one who harshly rebuffs the orphan and does not urge the feeding of the poor. So woe to those who do prayer, and are forgetful of their prayer, those who show off and deny help to others. (Surat al-Ma'un 1-7)

Allah issues a stern warning to those who misappropriate the wealth of orphans People who consume the property of orphans wrongfully consume nothing in their bellies except fire. They will roast in a Searing Blaze. (Surat an-Nisa' 10)

Give orphans their property, and do not substitute bad things for good. Do not assimilate their property into your own. Doing that is a serious crime. (Surat an-Nisa' 2)

It seems that you came to bash Islam since it seems there are many things the Koran is concerned about rather than food. But looks like you came to the wrong site. Many Islam bashers have a hard time here since Koran is not easy to bash like Sunni Shia religion. So you are looking for any oxygen to breathe on and looks like you thing slavery is an issue you can use to critique the Koran.

But there is not much oxygen there.

A2Z

But looks like you came to the wrong site. Many Islam bashers have a hard time here since Koran is not easy to bash like Sunni Shia religion. So you are looking for any oxygen to breathe on and looks like you thing slavery is an issue you can use to critique the Koran.

Not easy doesn't mean impossible. It seems that you do realized that there are weaknesses in Quran.

The slavery issue is one of the Quran weaknesses. It will place its believer with a noble heart in dilemma because good people dissaprove slavery but Quran does not classified it as 'haram'. However, not many Muslim know about this as to them Islam is a religion that free human from any form of slavery and they assumed Quran had put slavery to stop. Quran Alone believer knew this very well that slavery is not 'haram' as they study Quran indepth (word by word, line by line) but it is hard for them to admit.

482 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

Not to 'haram' the slavery is discrepancy to humanity feeling which had been the 'fitrah' of every human being. Let's carefully consider the Quran and accept the challenge made by this verse. If not much discrepancy to be found, one or two are inside Quran.

Sacred Months is another discrepancy in Quran. Quran claimed that it had explained in detail whatever things that god want human to practice per below verse.

6114 Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt

However for Sacred Months case, the names of the 4 sacred months are not mentioned in Quran and there is no way for Quran Alone believers to know what months are the sacred months. There are major dos and don'ts during these sacred months and please refer to the following link for verses related to Sacred Months.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603158.0

The names of these months can only be found in 'hadith' and this suggests that Quran cannot stand by its own. This is a good news for those who addicted to 'hadith' since Quran need those tales to complete or perfect it.

WhereIsTheTruth

Not easy doesn't mean impossible. It seems that you do realized that there are weaknesses in Quran.

The slavery issue is one of the Quran weaknesses. It will place its believer with a noble heart in dilemma because good people dissaprove slavery but Quran does not classified it as 'haram'. However, not many Muslim know about this as to them Islam is a religion that free human from any form of slavery and they assumed Quran had put slavery to stop. Quran Alone believer knew this very well that slavery is not 'haram' as they study Quran indepth (word by word, line by line) but it is hard for them to admit.

482 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

Not to 'haram' the slavery is discrepancy to humanity feeling which had been the 'fitrah' of every human being. Let's carefully consider the Quran and accept the challenge made by this verse. If not much discrepancy to be found, one or two are inside Quran.

Sacred Months is another discrepancy in Quran. Quran claimed that it had explained in detail whatever things that god want human to practice per below verse.

6114 Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt

However for Sacred Months case, the names of the 4 sacred months are not mentioned in Quran and there is no way for Quran Alone believers to know what months are the sacred months. There are major dos and don'ts during these sacred months and please refer to the following link for verses related to Sacred Months.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603158.0

The names of these months can only be found in 'hadith' and this suggests that Quran cannot stand by its own. This is a good news for those who addicted to 'hadith' since Quran need those tales to complete or perfect it.

Peace, dude.

I really hope that all people disapprove and hate slavery. If there is someone who thinks that slavery is a good thing, than he should be sent for mental treatment. Or he should be sold into slavery, so he knows what it means to be a slave.

Secondly, didnt I told you before, that anyone who sets up a partner beside God is a sinner? MUSHRIK?

Hence BEING a slave is a great sin, the only crime god does not forgive.

Peace

GROAN

Peace, dude.
I really hope that all people disapprove and hate slavery. If there is someone who thinks that slavery is a good thing, than he should be sent for mental treatment. Or he should be sold into slavery, so he knows what it means to be a slave. Secondly, didnt I told you before, that anyone who sets up a partner beside God is a sinner? MUSHRIK? Hence BEING a slave is a great sin, the only crime god does not forgive. Peace

Excellent point there!! Never thought of that. However Allah (swt) has not made it a sin as far as I can see. Freeing a slave would fall under the obligation to fight oppression though I suppose. hmm

IMHO

Peace, dude.

I really hope that all people disapprove and hate slavery. If there is someone who thinks that slavery is a good thing, than he should be sent for mental treatment. Or he should be sold into slavery, so he knows what it means to be a slave.
Peace

Multinational companies, who are constantly seeking cheap labour in very poor countries to manufacture their higly priced designer goods, often involving children who are paid a pittance, and then they sell those items abroad at a premium price; does that not come under enslaving whole nations?!
peace

huruf

I suppose some people approach the Qur'an without minding what it says about itself

It is it is a guide to those who are conscious of God, who believe in the unseen, et. etc. beginning of Al Bqara...

The Qur'an is not a recipe book nor a book where you do not have to reflect nor reason, because you will be directed like with a traffic light. The Qur'an is not that. So if somebody says it does not forbid slavery, why should it forbide it? Are people silly enough not to reflect and be conscious of God, so that they would have slavery?

Do they need a traffic light for that after hearing and thinking of the Qur'an?

The qur'an is not a slongan or manifesto, it is a guidance, if you follow it you will not keep slaves, even if there is no traffic light for it. Even if it was forbidden as there are other things forbidden and people did not want to follow the Qur'an, they would not follow and they wowuld still have slavery under whatever subterfuge.

The Qur'an does not pander to political correctness or to whimses of people that choose not to understand when they could understand perfectly if they were really conscious.

No fault of the Qur'an, but the whimses of the "perfect" readers who would want to have traffic lights as if they could not use their inteleect. The Qur'an tells us to use the intelect no to be donkeys loaded with books.

Salaam

Bigmo

I suppose some people approach the Qur'an without minding what it says about itself

It is it is a guide to those who are conscious of God, who believe in the unseen, et. etc. beginning of Al Bqara...

The Qur'an is not a recipe book nor a book where you do not have to reflect nor reason, because you will be directed like with a traffic light. The Qur'an is not that. So if somebody says it does not forbid slavery, why should it forbide it? Are people silly enough not to reflect and be conscious of God, so that they would have slavery?

Do they need a traffic light for that after hearing and thinking of the Qur'an?

The qur'an is not a slongan or manifesto, it is a guidance, if you follow it you will not keep slaves, even if there is no traffic light for it. Even if it was forbidden as there are other things forbidden and people did not want to follow the Qur'an, they would not follow and they wowuld still have slavery under whatever subterfuge.

The Qur'an does not pander to political correctness or to whimses of people that choose not to understand when they could understand perfectly if they were really conscious.

No fault of the Qur'an, but the whimses of the "perfect" readers who would want to have traffic lights as if they could not use their inteleect. The Qur'an tells us to use the intelect no to be donkeys loaded with books.

Salaam

Very good point but you also need to understand is that we are still looking at the verses one issue at a time. Its only when you can see the Koran as a whole taht you can understand its message.

This is why i talked about the prophetic authority in the Koran as compared to the Sunnah. The prophetic authority (the highest authority a human can have) is a limited authority in the Koran.

Slavery requires absolute authority which is not what you can find in the Koran. But you could find it in abundance in the Sunnah. The Sunnah gives the ruler absolute authority. The authority of life and death. Like what the King told Abraham.

When I talk about authority, I mean the authority the ruler has and society has over the individual. If the individual has the right to disbelieve in God and ridicules his prophets, then this individual has the freedom to do anything since disbelieving in God and ridiculing his prophets is the worst thing a human can do. So the sects had no choice but to abrogate all the verses in the Koran that gives the prophet limited authority.

The "I was ordered to fight the people till they say God is one" hadith is a perfect example of the absolute authority the Sunnah gives the prophet. This authority can now be transfered by default to the ruler. The "whover changes his religion then kill him" hadith is another example.

So for you to take someone as a slave you need to have authority over him. The question from a Koranic point of view is where do you get such authority. The only time I can see that if someone owes someone money he can't pay then he becomes a slave to that person till the money is paid back or he works for the other person till he compensates for his loss.

Authroity is not easy to have. One of the goals of the Sunnah is to elevate the prophetic authority to absolute authority and then this new authority becomes the authority of the state.

This is the whole Ron Paul argument. You can't have a free society with a big government. He means a government with too much authority.

Indelwyn

But we are SLAVES to Allah, in this case is it still a big sin?

This question puzzled me from my sister's husband. If slavery is so evil then why are you to call yourselfs God's slaves? I was stumped on this. He asked about the slavery issue in Qu'ran, meanwhile he is a born again.. HELLO.. read the bible. Anyway the info you guys pointed to did help untill after I explained how much a sin slavery was then he hit me with that. Any help?? I see him on Thanksgiving, I am SURE it will come up.

KDC501

But we are SLAVES to Allah, in this case is it still a big sin?

This question puzzled me from my sister's husband. If slavery is so evil then why are you to call yourselfs God's slaves? I was stumped on this. He asked about the slavery issue in Qu'ran, meanwhile he is a born again.. HELLO.. read the bible. Anyway the info you guys pointed to did help untill after I explained how much a sin slavery was then he hit me with that. Any help?? I see him on Thanksgiving, I am SURE it will come up.

How can being slaves/servants to Almighty God be a sin? Isn't God our lawmaker??? Sin is only what God says is sin.

Peace,

Kevin

Kaiokenred

But we are SLAVES to Allah, in this case is it still a big sin?

This question puzzled me from my sister's husband. If slavery is so evil then why are you to call yourselfs God's slaves? I was stumped on this. He asked about the slavery issue in Qu'ran, meanwhile he is a born again.. HELLO.. read the bible. Anyway the info you guys pointed to did help untill after I explained how much a sin slavery was then he hit me with that. Any help?? I see him on Thanksgiving, I am SURE it will come up.

We're not slaves, Allah is omnipotent, He doesn't need any slave. The word is servant. We "serve" him by being righteous because He wanted to give us a chance, and there's no such thing as a sin. There's good deed and bad deed.

KDC501

Slavery is sinful only AMONG HUMANS. If we are called servants of God that should not imply that slavery is not a sin since God is nothing like us. God is our Lord and Master. He created us so basically he owns us. We are all servants to him whether we like it or not.

Peace,

Kevin

KDC501

We're not slaves, Allah is omnipotent, He doesn't need any slave. The word is servant. We "serve" him by being righteous because He wanted to give us a chance, and there's no such thing as a sin. There's good deed and bad deed.

In essence I do agree that God doesn't need anything from us since God is doing everything(since the worlds run by God's law)...

Sura 4126 To GOD belongs everything in the heavens, and the earth. GOD is in full control of all things

Sura 817 It was not you who killed them. GOD is the One who killed them. It was not you who threw when you threw; GOD is the One who threw. But He thus gives the believers a chance to earn a lot of credit. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient. (817)

But we are still slaves/servants to God. Slaves here doesn't mean that we do stuff for God but rather slaves here means that he OWNS us.

Sura 4126 To GOD belongs everything in the heavens, and the earth. GOD is in full control of all things

Peace,

Kevin

Indelwyn

Thanks )

I am sure it had to do with the translation he was picking from as well. I think his whole issue the way I preceived it was if slavery is so bad and Allah wants to "abolish" it then why is doing the same thing. Besides he is anti-islam so he will pick ANYTHING!

I agree with you guys it means to OWN. We do submit but I also prefer the term servant over slave. Save just has negativity around it.

Bigmo

Not easy doesn't mean impossible. It seems that you do realized that there are weaknesses in Quran.

The slavery issue is one of the Quran weaknesses. It will place its believer with a noble heart in dilemma because good people dissaprove slavery but Quran does not classified it as 'haram'. However, not many Muslim know about this as to them Islam is a religion that free human from any form of slavery and they assumed Quran had put slavery to stop. Quran Alone believer knew this very well that slavery is not 'haram' as they study Quran indepth (word by word, line by line) but it is hard for them to admit.

482 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

Not to 'haram' the slavery is discrepancy to humanity feeling which had been the 'fitrah' of every human being. Let's carefully consider the Quran and accept the challenge made by this verse. If not much discrepancy to be found, one or two are inside Quran.

Sacred Months is another discrepancy in Quran. Quran claimed that it had explained in detail whatever things that god want human to practice per below verse.

6114 Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt

However for Sacred Months case, the names of the 4 sacred months are not mentioned in Quran and there is no way for Quran Alone believers to know what months are the sacred months. There are major dos and don'ts during these sacred months and please refer to the following link for verses related to Sacred Months.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603158.0

The names of these months can only be found in 'hadith' and this suggests that Quran cannot stand by its own. This is a good news for those who addicted to 'hadith' since Quran need those tales to complete or perfect it.

29.48 And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand, for then could those who say untrue things have doubted.

Here the Koran tells us that if Muhammad was known to be a biblical scholar, his enemies would have had stronger reason to doubt. But of course the people of Mecca knew him and they knew he was never a person who was known or seen to have had some kind of biblical knowledge. Often they ascribed the Koran either to magic or some other figure they claimed supplied Muhamamd with the Koranic material.

This is why i say your critique carries no water. Your argument is basically "why did not the Koran explicitly abolish slavery". yet the Koran did not explicitly supported or encouraged slavery. We are told in the Koran

89-96. And We have explained to man, in this Qur'an, every kind of similitude yet the greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude! They say "We shall not believe in thee, until thou cause a spring to gush forth for us from the earth,"Or (until) thou have a garden of date trees and vines, and cause rivers to gush forth in their midst, carrying abundant water;"Or thou cause the sky to fall in pieces, as thou sayest (will happen), against us; or thou bring Allah and the angels before (us) face to face "Or thou have a house adorned with gold, or thou mount a ladder right into the skies. No, we shall not even believe in thy mounting until thou send down to us a book that we could read." Say "Glory to my Lord! Am I aught but a man,- an apostle?" What kept men back from belief when Guidance came to them, was nothing but this they said, "Has Allah sent a man (like us) to be (His) Messenger." Say, "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for an apostle." Say "Enough is Allah for a witness between me and you for He is well acquainted with His servants, and He sees (all things).

Here we are told that the pagans wanted to know why Muhamamd did not have a sign of some sort to show that he was indeed a messenger of God. They asked why is this messenger like anybody else and why does he not have visible signs.

This was their critique. And I am sure if you were there youy would have asked the same thing. Yet we know from the past scriptures that many prophets (Jesus) were given such signs and yet the people did not believe.

So my answer to you is the same as the first verse I quoted in this post of mine.

"if the Koran did explicitly support slavery and ordered us to have slaves and encouraged us to to do so, then you would have a strong argument. But you don't.

'He it is who has sent down to thee the Book in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the book others are allegorical, that is those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the book; the whole of it is from our Lord;" and none will grasp the message except men of understanding' (Al-Qur'an 3 7).

So the Quran often uses its verses as a bait, to see what the disbelievers and hypocrites will do. How they will spin it and what kind of agenda they have. But they are not able to do so with any explicit verses so they run to the bait and spin. Without explicit verses, they really have nothing. So they tried to solve this problem by bringing forth explicit hadiths to support their agenda. This explains why the Koran tends to be vague about certain issues. A Quranist simply has to accept these verses as they are without speculating and then looking at the more established verses to understand his faith.

At the end of the day, a Koranic state will have to find some justification for slavery if it was to legalize it. To own someone you need the authority to do so. Without any explicit verses to back that up and without being able to establish such authority this is going to be a hard sell indeed. That is what the Sunnah came for, to establish such authority. Authority that you will not find in the Koran. All you will find from the Koran is a recognition that slavery existed in Muhammad's time as it did with Moses's time and even Joseph's time. Not much oygen there.

Noon_dhe_plume

But we are SLAVES to Allah, in this case is it still a big sin?

This question puzzled me from my sister's husband. If slavery is so evil then why are you to call yourselfs God's slaves? I was stumped on this. He asked about the slavery issue in Qu'ran, meanwhile he is a born again.. HELLO.. read the bible. Anyway the info you guys pointed to did help untill after I explained how much a sin slavery was then he hit me with that. Any help?? I see him on Thanksgiving, I am SURE it will come up.

Peace --

English word "slave" and allowing one human to enslave/possess another comes from bible not Qur'an.

http//bible.cc/search.php?q=slave

1930 said indeed I devotee/servant The God He gave me the book and made me a prophet

2432 and marry the single from you and the righteous from devotees/servants among you and devotees/handmaidens among you if they are poor enriches them The God from His bounty and The God Encompassing Knowing

A2Z