Forbidden or Sacred Month
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The month of ramadhan in my view starts during the winter solstice (during the longest nights). You can read more about it in "The Natural Republic " Chapter 16 Fasting.
Again you still do not understand what I am saying. You are not allowed to follow that which you have no knowledge of. Since I have knowledge of the contact prayers, fasting, and Pilgrimage then it is binding upon me to follow these practices. This is not the case with those who DON'T have knowledge.
For those who are not aware of the Book the fundamentals that get you into paradise are
(1) The belief in an Almighty God
(2) Doing righteous deeds
(3) No association with the One God.Peace,
Kevin
With your latest reply in 'Maybe I'm wrong Desperate god' post, are you still interested to debate with me on this topic or stick to the quote you made below?
Then to you is your belief and to me is mine. .....
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The rituals are meant for the people who have the means to follow them and not those who don't know or have no knowledge of them.
Then please tell me the procedures and methods to cut thief?s hand and flog adulterer. These are the well known laws in Quran and by now Quranist should be able to explain in detail the procedures and methodology although they are still in virtual society. If you don?t do it right you might end up destroy the sinners future or put them to death by excessive punishment esp for young sinners. Please don?t tell me again you don?t have the knowledge as these are well known laws in Quran.
For the adultery punishment, most of the translations agreed with the lashes but for theft pro-Quranist translations have different opinions although the Arabic word clearly say ?cut?. What really happening here is that they ?disagreed? with the Quran?s author on the hand-cutting punishment.
I?ve read sometimes ago a Muslim woman got caught drinking beer in public and the local syariah court sentenced her for a few lashes. She did not want to make any plead and requested the court to proceed with the punishment. The funny thing was, the enforcement team not able to carry out the punishment due to they don?t have the capability and knowledge and they are the one who pleaded to the woman to plead at court to relax the punishment.
What the verse 1736 try to tell you is that you are not a sinner if you have done something which you think is good but in actual fact it is not or not meeting Quran?s guidelines. For example Somebody asked you for money and he claimed to buy food for his family. You gave him some but on his way to grocery store he decided to try his luck at gambling table and the luck is with him. He won more money. He bought more food for his family and your sincere intention fulfilled. What GOD will look at is you sincerity but you will not be accountable for what the man had did with your money. Other example You pay taxes to your government but if the government used your money to attack innocent peoples, GOD will not hold you accountable for what your government did. But if you still cast your vote for the same government on the next election, then you are a sinner in GOD point of view.
As a person seeking for truth, you need to make an effort to understand all the teaching inside any guide book you believed or want to believe in. Surely there is a spark in your mind asking why something looks very important not being explained in details. For this Sacred and Forbidden Months case, the dos and don?ts mentioned in Quran are very stringent yet you can?t observed them due to you don?t know when the months are. Unless you want to stress your brain you can settle with the ?listed and obey? concept.
Do you think GOD purposely wants to confuse you with HIS WORDS?
I?m very interested in the ?The Quran Quiz? post. The person who started it provides a very clear instructions or rules. Everybody who participated has no problem to follow the rules. GOD is revealing something for us there.
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Dear A2Z,
I disagree with your post on the subject of theft.
Did Joseph cut off his brother's hand when he accused him of theft?
The Quran gives us these stories to teach us the "proper" understanding and not to be a misled people.
The women in Sura 12 who saw Joseph "cut their hands" - obviously the context indicates they did not sever their hands. Therefore the same words, in a different context, can have a varied meaning.
Things are not always black & white.
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The procedures and methods for punishing adulterers and thief's are already found in the Quran . If you want more details you would not find any. Personally I would recommend you don't ask to many questions but instead act justly and use a bit of common sense to fill out all the 'blanks' in procedure. God gave you a mind. I suggest you use it. If you act justly and righteously you shouldn't have any fear about disappointing God. Don't be like the Children of Israel who questioned Moses about the heifer.
Peace,
Kevin
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Dear A2Z,
I disagree with your post on the subject of theft.
Did Joseph cut off his brother's hand when he accused him of theft?
The Quran gives us these stories to teach us the "proper" understanding and not to be a misled people.
The women in Sura 12 who saw Joseph "cut their hands" - obviously the context indicates they did not sever their hands. Therefore the same words, in a different context, can have a varied meaning.
Things are not always black & white.
Dear sir,
Nice to have you here. I think you also knew the whole story of Joseph and his brother. It was Joseph who did the planning thus it is not fair for his brother to be punished.
There are many stories in Quran and sometime the author seems trying to downgrade GOD and prophets' credibility.
2154 He said "You and your fathers have been clearly misguided."
2155 They said "Have you come to us with the truth, or are you simply playing?"
2156 He said "No, your lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, the One who initiated them. And I bear witness to such."
2157 "And by God, I will plan against your statues after you have gone away and given your backs."
2158 So he broke them into pieces except for the biggest of them, so that they may turn to him.
2159 They said "Who has done this to our gods? He is surely one of the wicked."
2160 They said "We heard a young man mentioning them. He was called Abraham."
2161 They said "Bring him before the eyes of the people so that they may be witness."
2162 They said "Did you do this to our gods O Abraham?"
2163 He said "No, it was the biggest one of them here who did it, so ask them, if they do speak!"Remark I have added word no in verse 2163 as it is missing from the translation provided by this site.
Do yo agree with me if I say Abaraham lied to his people when he said, "No, it was the biggest one of them here who did it, so ask them, if they do speak!"? I understand Abraham wanted to psycho his people but it is not noble to lie to people. He can simple said, "Why don't you ask the biggest one." He don't need to lie.
I agree with you that things are not always black & white but how many sects had used the hudud's verses to punish people?
You see here even the translation from this site realized that the word 'no' should not be there in verse 2163 but in Arabic there is 'bal' word.
Maybe I'm wrong for questioning Quran but I did it with the knowledge given by GOD.
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Doing empty rituals is not what gets you into paradise. It is rather the sincerity behind the rituals that does get you into paradise. Showing your appreciation and giving thanks to God is the main purpose of rituals.
Sir, I fully agree with you on this statement.
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Those who follow harmless rituals based on there own knowledge from research and study are not committing sin and are not in violation of Sura 1736 since in there own minds they had knowledge of it. For example, there are people on this forum who will tell you that they are 100% sure that there are two daily prayers. I am in disagreement with them , but do I believe that they will go to hell for it?? No I don't , unless they were unsincere and they knew the truth but chose to hide it then they will go to hell for it. Other than that they have committed no sin since at the time they were seeking knowledge and to the best of there ability they found the number of prays to be two.
What Sura 1736 is taking about is not to uphold practices blindly without doing the necessary research.
Peace,
Kevin
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Then please tell me the procedures and methods to cut thief?s hand and flog adulterer.
For the adultery punishment, most of the translations agreed with the lashes but for theft pro-Quranist translations have different opinions although the Arabic word clearly say ?cut?. What really happening here is that they ?disagreed? with the Quran?s author on the hand-cutting punishment.
I?ve read sometimes ago a Muslim woman got caught drinking beer in public and the local syariah court sentenced her for a few lashes.
Do you think GOD purposely wants to confuse you with HIS WORDS?Peace A2Z peace
The "cuting" of ones hand CANNOT be severing the entire hand. The Punishment for theft if to figuratively "Cut" off the hands (i.e sustenance) of the thief.
This is because there are multiple intrepretations of the word "cut; In some verses of the Quran, it CLEARLY states the punishment intented was to entirely cut of the OPPOSITE hands of the believers
*The Capital punishment for those who go against God and his messenger and CORRUPT the earrth is Death, crusified, OR Their Hands and feet be cut from OPPOSITE SIDES, or exiled from the land (533)
*Pharoah wanted to Cut off the OPPOSITE SIDES of the hands & feet of the believers of Moses (7124)In OTHER verses, it simple states "Cut" their thands
*The women who admired Joseph so much so that they "cut" their hands (1231)
=This can never mean that the women cut of their entire hands*Similarly, The Punishment of theft is to "cut" the hands of the thieves (53
Tell me, if the punishment was to entirely sever of the hands of the thieves, why did not God almighty tell us which hands to cut like how he cited for us the examples of one of the punishmenst to those who go fight against him and corrupt the earth, which is to cut of their hands/leggs from OPPOSITE SIDES?*Moreover, there is also the example of Joseph and his brother, who was accused, well actually condemned as being a thief, and his punishment (gaza'2 ) was that he was taken in and kept in Joseph's rule. The Word "Hand" in the Quran can also mean the SUSTENANCE of someone, see 564, God's Hand's ( ِ are open wide; he SPENDS however he wants, and 3845, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob were Strong, ( ي and David, who was RESOURCEFULL 3817 ( ) .
*Now, What does "cut" of their hands mean in this concept?** The flogging discriptions is stated in 242, as the free adultrous punished by 100 flogs, and that their punishment be WITNESSED by a group of believers.
***Moreover, I also heard of the "Muslim woman got caught drinking beer in public" and was so called sentenced to punishment by the court in Malaysia, However, there is NO punishment for drinking alcohol in the Quran, what an inovation!
**** As for your question "Do you think GOD purposely wants to confuse you with HIS WORDS?".
Well the truth is, God Almighty Guides Whomeveer he wills and Misguides whomever he wills.
It's not so much about confusion, its more like going deeper and deeper into the realm of understanding.
*God clearly gave us our Minds, Eye sight, and hearing for a reason laugh
~ Thus Seek help & Guidance from God Almighty, and stirve in his cause, as he surely Guides those who strive in his cause (2969).
Peace peace -
Do you want a list of what are good deeds so that you won't make a mistake??? Did God create Robots or did he make people with minds and COMMON SENSE to judge rightly what is wrong and what is right???? Can't you think for yourself???
Good questions. Actually, we don't need any book which the author claim from god to guide us as GOD make people with minds and COMMON SENSE to judge rightly what is wrong and what is right. Looks at the Japanese, how advance they are and they still able to keep their culture intact. Looks how they conduct themselves after being hit by Tsunami early this year. They queued for miles to get food and other basic needs. Until now I don't even know what religion they follow but they honored and observed the code of 'Bushido'.
To know what is right and what is wrong is very-very easy. Whatever things that you don't like people to do to you or loved ones are wrong ans whatever things you like people do to you and your loved ones are right. Even a criminals observed this basic rules. A thief will get mad if somebody stole his things. An adulterer will not feel happy if his or her family doing the same thing.
So why do we need Quran when GOD make people with minds and COMMON SENSE to judge rightly what is wrong and what is right? Can't you think for yourself?
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Good questions. Actually, we don't need any book which the author claim from god to guide us as GOD make people with minds and COMMON SENSE to judge rightly what is wrong and what is right. Looks at the Japanese, how advance they are and they still able to keep their culture intact. Looks how they conduct themselves after being hit by Tsunami early this year. They queued for miles to get food and other basic needs. Until now I don't even know what religion they follow but they honored and observed the code of 'Bushido'.
To know what is right and what is wrong is very-very easy. Whatever things that you don't like people to do to you or loved ones are wrong ans whatever things you like people do to you and your loved ones are right. Even a criminals observed this basic rules. A thief will get mad if somebody stole his things. An adulterer will not feel happy if his or her family doing the same thing.
So why do we need Quran when GOD make people with minds and COMMON SENSE to judge rightly what is wrong and what is right? Can't you think for yourself?
Peace A2Z peace
God Almighty has clearly taught humans the to distinguish what is right or wrong as per 554
Also, God Almighty has sent Prophets with scripture in order to CLARIFY the disputes of the people as per 2213
God ALmighty clearly tells us that those who follow HIS guidance will not go astray, nor will they suffer (20123) -
Good questions. Actually, we don't need any book which the author claim from god to guide us as GOD make people with minds and COMMON SENSE to judge rightly what is wrong and what is right. Looks at the Japanese, how advance they are and they still able to keep their culture intact. Looks how they conduct themselves after being hit by Tsunami early this year. They queued for miles to get food and other basic needs. Until now I don't even know what religion they follow but they honored and observed the code of 'Bushido'.
To know what is right and what is wrong is very-very easy. Whatever things that you don't like people to do to you or loved ones are wrong ans whatever things you like people do to you and your loved ones are right. Even a criminals observed this basic rules. A thief will get mad if somebody stole his things. An adulterer will not feel happy if his or her family doing the same thing.
So why do we need Quran when GOD make people with minds and COMMON SENSE to judge rightly what is wrong and what is right? Can't you think for yourself?
What you are saying is something completely different than what I was trying to say to you. I said that you shouldn't ask too many questions when God commandments are simple. I did not say anything about rejecting guidance from God. Only a fool will reject guidance from his Creator! God is my Lord and your Lord. If God sends you guidance and a way to follow would you in your arrogance reject what he has given you????? Only the unappreciative of God's creation would do such. I am appreciative of everything that God has given me. So if I see a book with clear signs that it is from God why should I reject it??? Only are fool who lacks knowledge and is arrogant would reject God's book and law when clearly the signs in the Book are from God.
I will like to ask you two questions which I hope you will be able to give me an honest answer. In your view what is the purpose of life??? Why are we here??? And please don't tell me it's to have fun, make children and have family and friends, cars, large houses and swimming pools. If these things were the purpose of life then why are tens of thousands of people denied this luxury? In your view we really don't have a purpose. Everything with God is que sera sera. He just created us and dump us here just for the sake of amusement. Is this the God you believe and serve??? A God who will not give his subjects any sort of guidance and place them in a world with suffering , heartache and pain for no reason!!! To you is your god and to me is Mine. I believe we have a purpose. And because we have purpose God will guide us.
Peace,
Kevin
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To know what is right and what is wrong is very-very easy. Whatever things that you don't like people to do to you or loved ones are wrong ans whatever things you like people do to you and your loved ones are right. Even a criminals observed this basic rules. A thief will get mad if somebody stole his things. An adulterer will not feel happy if his or her family doing the same thing.
No. A believer who exercises righteousness will never judge like the unbelievers and those who do evil. They are not even in the same category. So how can you even use this example to prove a point???
The Quran provides the baseline for JUDGING every aspect of our lives. Anything that is not in the Quran is left for us to decide. And please note that the Quran is a book that promotes peace, love , dignity, compassion, general GOOD VIRTUES that resonate with any right thinking person. We have a good baseline. So making sound judgments outside the Quran should never be a problem unless the person is devilish by nature and a disbeliever.
Peace,
Kevin
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Salam A2Z,
Nice to have you here. I think you also knew the whole story of Joseph and his brother. It was Joseph who did the planning thus it is not fair for his brother to be punished.
Thank you brother - always nice to be amongst family )
The story of Jospeh is not about what is fair, but about the application of the law, which is why God tells us at the begining of the story
127 In Joseph and his brothers are signs for those who seek.
Thus we learn that, when Joseph was plotting to keep his brother, he let his brothers give the ruling for theft (see 1275), because according to the laws of theft applied in Egypt he would not have been able to do the same (see 1276).
There are many stories in Quran and sometime the author seems trying to downgrade GOD and prophets' credibility.
2154 He said "You and your fathers have been clearly misguided."
2155 They said "Have you come to us with the truth, or are you simply playing?"
2156 He said "No, your lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, the One who initiated them. And I bear witness to such."
2157 "And by God, I will plan against your statues after you have gone away and given your backs."
2158 So he broke them into pieces except for the biggest of them, so that they may turn to him.
2159 They said "Who has done this to our gods? He is surely one of the wicked."
2160 They said "We heard a young man mentioning them. He was called Abraham."
2161 They said "Bring him before the eyes of the people so that they may be witness."
2162 They said "Did you do this to our gods O Abraham?"
2163 He said "No, it was the biggest one of them here who did it, so ask them, if they do speak!"Remark I have added word no in verse 2163 as it is missing from the translation provided by this site.
Do yo agree with me if I say Abaraham lied to his people when he said, "No, it was the biggest one of them here who did it, so ask them, if they do speak!"? I understand Abraham wanted to psycho his people but it is not noble to lie to people. He can simple said, "Why don't you ask the biggest one." He don't need to lie.
The Arabic for "no" (kala) does not appear in the text, so the translation is correct. The word "bal" is akin to "indeed" (it is an affirmation word, not a negative).
As for Abraham's story, the entire premise of what Abraham wanted to bring to his peoples attention to the fact that thse idols can't speak - that is why he left the biggest idol standing and destroyed the rest. Thus, when they came to him, he simply said "it is this large idol that destroyed the others - so why don't you ask him to verify?". Quite a smart man if you ask me who made a smart point by example and not just debate.
Regards,
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No. A believer who exercises righteousness will never judge like the unbelievers and those who do evil. They are not even in the same category. So how can you even use this example to prove a point???
The Quran provides the baseline for JUDGING every aspect of our lives. Anything that is not in the Quran is left for us to decide. And please note that the Quran is a book that promotes peace, love , dignity, compassion, general GOOD VIRTUES that resonate with any right thinking person. We have a good baseline. So making sound judgments outside the Quran should never be a problem unless the person is devilish by nature and a disbeliever.
Peace,
Kevin
I will respond to your questions in below quote in a new post.
What you are saying is something completely different than what I was trying to say to you. I said that you shouldn't ask too many questions when God commandments are simple. I did not say anything about rejecting guidance from God. Only a fool will reject guidance from his Creator! God is my Lord and your Lord. If God sends you guidance and a way to follow would you in your arrogance reject what he has given you????? Only the unappreciative of God's creation would do such. I am appreciative of everything that God has given me. So if I see a book with clear signs that it is from God why should I reject it??? Only are fool who lacks knowledge and is arrogant would reject God's book and law when clearly the signs in the Book are from God.
I will like to ask you two questions which I hope you will be able to give me an honest answer. In your view what is the purpose of life??? Why are we here??? And please don't tell me it's to have fun, make children and have family and friends, cars, large houses and swimming pools. If these things were the purpose of life then why are tens of thousands of people denied this luxury? In your view we really don't have a purpose. Everything with God is que sera sera. He just created us and dump us here just for the sake of amusement. Is this the God you believe and serve??? A God who will not give his subjects any sort of guidance and place them in a world with suffering , heartache and pain for no reason!!! To you is your god and to me is Mine. I believe we have a purpose. And because we have purpose God will guide us.
Peace,
Kevin
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Salam A2Z,
Thank you brother - always nice to be amongst family )
The story of Jospeh is not about what is fair, but about the application of the law, which is why God tells us at the begining of the story
127 In Joseph and his brothers are signs for those who seek.
Thus we learn that, when Joseph was plotting to keep his brother, he let his brothers give the ruling for theft (see 1275), because according to the laws of theft applied in Egypt he would not have been able to do the same (see 1276).
The Arabic for "no" (kala) does not appear in the text, so the translation is correct. The word "bal" is akin to "indeed" (it is an affirmation word, not a negative).
As for Abraham's story, the entire premise of what Abraham wanted to bring to his peoples attention to the fact that thse idols can't speak - that is why he left the biggest idol standing and destroyed the rest. Thus, when they came to him, he simply said "it is this large idol that destroyed the others - so why don't you ask him to verify?". Quite a smart man if you ask me who made a smart point by example and not just debate.
Regards,
Thanks you very much and fyi., miraculously GOD had shown me HIS sign yesterday. I will tell you and rest in my new post which I'm in the midst of drafting it. Hope GOD spare me time to finish it and share with you.
You have a good understanding in Quran and able effectively convey its messages to others in a very smooth manner. I will honor this 'meeting' for the rest of my life.
May GOD bless you and your family.
Allow me to use Quranic greeting to show my respect to you. Salamun alaikum.
