Christian with a question

mmkhan

This has been a great thread for thought, I to am in the same situation, loving the Quran, but worried over the traditions, on facebook I get notice's from Muslims all the time saying, stay away from Quran people only, they change the Quran to fit there faith. I don't see this, I am so happy to be in a group like this, to grow, and learn, thanks to all whom has posted.
Mike

Salaam Mike,

welcome brother

Mohammed M. Khan

exodus

Hello,

Actually there is no difference between being Christian or Muslim in Quranic aspect. Quran is not such a book which suggesting to convert one from another. It is all about obey the truth and submitting (submitter=muslim, submission=islam) to God as a plain human being. Hope that you aware how simple is it.

Sotuyo

This has been a great thread for thought, I to am in the same situation, loving the Quran, but worried over the traditions, on facebook I get notice's from Muslims all the time saying, stay away from Quran people only, they change the Quran to fit there faith. I don't see this, I am so happy to be in a group like this, to grow, and learn, thanks to all whom has posted.
Mike

Some (or most) Muslim's think Quran alone Muslim's are evil, it makes me wonder why considering in

Qur'an 262 "VERILY, those who have attained to faith , as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve."

they act as if we don't rank in this verse at all. Hypocrisy?

Sotuyo

This has been a great thread for thought, I to am in the same situation, loving the Quran, but worried over the traditions, on facebook I get notice's from Muslims all the time saying, stay away from Quran people only, they change the Quran to fit there faith. I don't see this, I am so happy to be in a group like this, to grow, and learn, thanks to all whom has posted.
Mike

Peace to you Michael. Relating to what you said about those people

"...Truth stands out clear from Error whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." Qur'an 2256.

Sotuyo

@ Jafar

That is probably what I will end up doing anyway. My wife is Christian and as such I go to church with her. But in the area where I live, Islam and Christianity do not get along. I probably will go to mosque on Friday and church on Sunday, which is what I see a lot of multifaith couples do anyways.

I apologize if I seem scattered in my questions/statements, but I am confused and yet looking at history I cannot fully trust a belief system, whether Christian or Muslim that bases most of its ideas on mans opinions. I have never fully understood the trinity for example, and I prefer the Muslim way of praying. I just feel that man makes religion way too complicated.

The example

If Allah's command (Pure and simple, to be written) is to jump. Then...

Men **** it up by telling others exactly how high, the distance, what day to do it, with or without shoes, on a rainy day or not, possibly if the sun is in the right position, or at night, what time, on time, the twirl. then it is written. Thank you leaders of the world, for misleading many, you ***holes. Now I know how Isa (Alaihisalam) felt speaking against the Pharisee's and their distortion of simpleness.

I know what I did wrong, but do you leaders? The answer is the twelve. Reason and Logic remains.

Ahmad, Isa, etc. Alaihissalam, carriers of the pureness, in which we are bestowed.

Recitation, section fifty three, sign three and four.

Allah_is_my_Judge

sun

"Those who listen to the Word and follow the best (meaning) in it, those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones indued with understanding." Qur'an 3918.

Indelwyn

The example

If Allah's command (Pure and simple, to be written) is to jump. Then...

Men **** it up by telling others exactly how high, the distance, what day to do it, with or without shoes, on a rainy day or not, possibly if the sun is in the right position, or at night, what time, on time, the twirl. then it is written.

LOL. Love it! Excellent example

I actually have a good friend who is sunni, he helped me alot with learning some recitation. Anyway we were talking about various things in religion. I told him that I no longer consider myself a follower of hadith. I was expecting him to start with the lectures, but he said well then what are you if not a sunni muslim. I said I am a muslim who only follows the Qur'an. He then stated. Well, I guess you can't go wrong in that since it is the Book of Allah, I can't say anything. It was the first time I heard a sunni say this toward me. Others seem to feel sad for me.

I came across this quote and it keeps a smile on my face when my fellow muslims (sunni) critize me.

"People with wisdom know that it is important to correct their own mistakes, while people without wisdom find it necessary to point out the mistakes of others. People with strong faith know that it is important to clear their own hearts, while those with unsteady faith seek to find fault in the hearts and prayers of others. This becomes a habit in their lives. But those who pray to Allah with faith, determination, and certitude know that the most important thing in life is to surrender their hearts to Allah." ~Bawa Muhaiyaddeen

Ayman_MELO

This has been a great thread for thought, I to am in the same situation, loving the Quran, but worried over the traditions, on facebook I get notice's from Muslims all the time saying, stay away from Quran people only, they change the Quran to fit there faith. I don't see this, I am so happy to be in a group like this, to grow, and learn, thanks to all whom has posted.
Mike

Salam Michael

You should remember those Muslims that they are the ones that are following the man made Hadiths and contradicting the Qur'an. Qur'an is the message from God, no one can change or add anything to it because Allah will punish him/her/them.

Bigmo

I am new and apologize if this isn't the right place for this question.

I am currently a Christian but am seriously considering conversion to Islam. Here comes my question that I cant get a straight answer on. Why the dedication to hadith? Why the dedication to a man made decree and not Gods? I am attending a Sunni mosque and many of the members are former Christians who left the faith due to man corrupting the message of the Bible and churches relying on man made religious rulings instead of God's rulings.

When I read the Koran I feel that it completes the Scriptures, but the Hadith can seem contradictory. One man at the mosque told me that many Hadiths were a reflection of culture and historical situations and one should follow God as times change, but he quickly told me to be careful saying that out loud.

Some help here would be needed, because one reason I am considering leaving Christianity is the same thing that seems to happen in regards to Hadiths.

The only difference between the Koran and Christianity, that I can see, is the Trinity (Divinity of Jesus). Christianity seperated Jesus from the rest of God's messengers. Other than that I see no real difference. There is some elements of Catholicism that the Koran may have criticized (such as the role clerics play), but Its not the same kind of difference that we see with Islam and Judaism.

The reason I think so is unlike Judaism and Islam (very similar), Christianity did not accept any relevations other than scriptures.

Islam (sectarian Islam)and Judaism accepted the oral traditions as binding. Not all Jewish sects did that, only the Pharisees (Jesus's enemies). But as it is today, Pharisaic Judaism (also known as Rabbinic Judaism) is by far the dominant form of Judaism today. Like their Mulsim counterparts, the Pharisees was the Jewish sect that believed the oral traditions are binding. Other Jewish sects refused that like the Essenes, Saducees and Karaites. But they have vanished now except the Karaites who are a small minority. Jesus attacked the Pharisees for their abrogation of the Torah and scripture. The Islamic sects also abrogated the Koran for their traditions. Both these religions claim the oral traditions were not allowed to be written down but was passed down orally. Both believe that scriptures could not be understood by themselves.

Islam is sectarian, while Judaism is ethnocentric. Islam gave authority to the ruler (Sunni Islam) while Judaism gave authority to the Jewish community and the Rabbis (as they were not the ruling authority but an exclusive minority). Islam uses majority strategy while Judaism is a minority strategy often using proxy to advance their goals.

The Shias also gave authority to the clerics as they were the main opposition group. This is why Sunni islam gave all authority to the ruler since the ruler was their ally (the Abbasid emprire).

The biggest difference between the Koran and sectarian Islam is prophetic authority. In the Koran authority of the prophet is limited to preaching and warning and delivering the message. The prophet can judge between people only if the chose him to be so. Justice is eye for an eye (equal retribution) and no burden must be imposed on another (la taziru wazirat wizr ukhra).

Judaism believes that a Jewish eye is worth a thousand gentile eyes while Islam evolved to an eye for an eye lash and a tooth for a jaw. The Koran has a different take on justice.

Finally freedom in the Koran (due to the prophetic limited authority) is taken for granted while both Ilsam and Judaism does not recognize human being's limited authority over other humans.

One of the goals of the Sunna was to elevate that limited authority to absolute authority.

1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message

479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith
24.54. Say "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

426 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach

6412 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance

As we can clearly see, many of the verses that talks about obeying the prophet also emphasises the prophet's limited authority, something that the Islamic sects do not recognize. The ruler to them has the authoirty to punish people for what they consider sins like drinking alcohol, eating pork, not fasting Ramadan, watching pornos etc.

The Koran meanwhile focuses on crimes against another like stealing, killing, slandering of women falsely and oppression. It gave the believers the right to fight against those who fight them but not to transgress. It also gave people the right to defend themsleves against evictions from their lands. There is no talk about punishing people for something that does not concerning somebody else's right.

Adultery is the only place where the Koran diverted from this due to the fact that a adultery affects another party. But even then it placed strict standards on that but was lenient when it came to punishing slanders of women. Adultery needs four witnesses but the slander can get punished just from opening his mouth without four witnesses. Its clear that the verse made it very difficult to impliment on adultery but very easy to impliment on the slanderer. Further reading of the verse about the Zani and Zania shows us that the issue came up concerning slandering of one of the porphet's wife presumably. But adultery still affects another party as its a breaking of an oath between a man and a woman and is an act of betrayal.

The Koran can not order the porphet to punish people for sins, that God's job. The Koran gave people the right and freedom to disbelieve let alone sin. Plus how the Koran understands sins is very different than how the sects understand sins.

In the end the sects had no choice but to abrogate many of these verses, usually invoking the "sword verse". They claim that many of these verses that gave the prophet limited authority(over those who chose to disobey him) has been abrogated by verse 9-5 or verse 9-29.

However these verses were about the wars with the pagans, and verse 9-13 and many other verses makes it clear who instigated these battles and why. The Jizya verse (9-29) also was claimed by the sects to be a tax to be paid by non Muslims in an Islamic state for protection. However Jizya never came concerning the Medina community where the prophet and his followers had a community. And only came upon the believers entering of Mecca. Jizya could have easily been compensation for the loss of property and homes that the believers suffered after being forced into exile.The Koran forbade prophets from seeking any form of reward. They can however accept charity on behalf of the believers.

But the Sunnah claimed otherwise. In it the prophet was ordered to fight the people till they acknowledge monotheism and also in it the prophet ordered the execution of those who apostated. Thats why they abrogated many of the verses that limited his authority. Then they simply transfered that authority for the Muslim ruler by default. The Ridda war story about Abu Bakr is a case study of this. In that story Abu Bakr apparently fought people for not paying Zakat. Now the authority was transfered from God to the prophet to one of his companions. This made it very easy to then transfer that authority to the ruler. This is why you see places where Shariah law is implimented filled with such concepts like searching cars for alcohol or flogging people for watching pornos or not wearing proper attire.None of this should concern anyone but it has become a punishable sin. God only punishes those who did not get caiught and punished in this world. The sects claim that once punished the sin falls away and dissapears. You will not find such a concept in the Koran. There God punishes in a million ways and does not need humans to punish for him. I think the sects introduced this conc3ept to make people more accepting of this by making them think its better for them since God's punishment is more severe. They also introduced stoning the adulterer by claiming the Zina verse in the Koran is concerning fornification and not adultery. They claimed that the verse about stoning was lost and is not included in the Koran but the ruling remains.

This of course violated not only the freedom aspect of the Koran but also an eye for an eye and a life for a life. In the Koran, any punishment must be recipricol and proportionate to the crime and it also must be targeted towards the actual perpetraters of the crime and not someone else associated to the criminal as the case with tribal laws that simply targets anyone from that tribe. They broke this by lower the bar for executions. Some Sunni scholars also gave the authority to execute homosexuals and enslave female prisoners and execute male prisoners. Something the Koran forbade. The Koran gave two options for prisoners, either freedom or ransom of some sort. They gave this authority to the ruler. This is all very sad as the taking of someones life is no easy matter in the Koran. God should take life and not humans, but if a person takes a life then he lost his right to live, but even then the Koran gave exile from the community as another option for murder esepcially if the person shows repentance. So an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth somehow ended up being an eye for an eye lash and a tooth for a jaw.

To be fair the Sunni orthodoxy rarely practiced some of these laws. We know of no time in history where adulterers were stoned to death. Apostasy was rarely practiced, unlike the Christians in Europe that practiced these laws left and right. So the Sunni jurist knew that some of these laws could be controversial. There is a rumor about Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab the founder or rather the revivalist of Salafism (some call it wahhabism) stoned a women to death. This was the only time in Islamic history that we heard such a thing.

Its very unfortunant the current Islamist in Iran and Sudan and the Salafis in generally never understood why these laws were controversial. But in doing so they exposed many aspect of the sects that people were not aware of. The Sufis provided a convenient cover as they shunned legalism. But even the clerics understood that these laws were controversial. Its not easy in Islam to execute outside of murder. But this wise tradition was broken. Thats very unfortunant as now we see the culture of death has spread among Muslims till Islam became synonymous with violence and killing. Once you lower the bar it spirals out of control.

One thing is crystal clear from all this. The Koran's take on human authority and freedom is RADICALLY different than how the sects understand it. Therefore the biggest difference between a Koranic state and a Sunni or Shia state will come in the form of the state's authority over the masses. It is this, more than anything else, that seperates the Koran from the Sunnah. Thats why the Abbasids championed the Sunnah over the Mutazilites. The Mutaziltes couldn't find the ink inthe Koran to give them such draconian authority. The sects did that by first bringing the divine authority from God to prophet, then propet to Caliph (companions) and now that authority is in Omar Al Bashir, Khamenei, Mullah Omar and Al Saud. And thats very sad.

Jafar

Therefore the biggest difference between a Koranic state and a Sunni or Shia state will come in the form of the state's authority over the masses. It is this, more than anything else, that seperates the Koran from the Sunnah. Thats why the Abbasids championed the Sunnah over the Mutazilites. The Mutaziltes couldn't find the ink inthe Koran to give them such draconian authority. The sects did that by first bringing the divine authority from God to prophet, then propet to Caliph (companions) and now that authority is in Omar Al Bashir, Khamenei, Mullah Omar and Al Saud. And thats very sad.

Yup.. that's always the motives...
The politicians always eager to use 'religion' as a tool for rallying the masses and make them willing to die for their sake...

The same pattern was also being applied within Christianism or Judaism..
God -> Jesus -> 12 disciples -> Pope
God -> Moses -> Levites -> Sanhedrin/Rabbis

Salam / Peace

WhereIsTheTruth