"Hebrew", the Children of Israel, and the Semitic Migrations
-
Oh perrrlease Noon dhe plume,
you have no foot to stand on...
how can someone reared by a clan and not even weaned by a clan (a very important clear cut source of lineage in Allah's System) like Joseph and Moses (Moses was weaned by his mother as he refused to be weaned by anyone else) become a member of a clan?
Both Joseph and Moses and all others of the progeny of Jacob / Israel, were not members of the Fir'3un family/clan (who were the original inhabitants in the area before Abraham migrated there)...
they were (Joseph and Moses and Bani Israel) descendants of monotheist immigrants, although they settled there (as progeny of Abraham)...There are two different peoples, though most Arabians, the peoples descending from Ibrahim, and the original dwellers when he moved to their land... the original dwellers were most probably not monotheists...
You are picking red herrings and trying to debunk with a very poor argument and splitting of hairs...
Now to you, how do you define precisely a tribe?
-
Oh perrrlease Noon dhe plume,
you have no foot to stand on...
how can someone reared by a clan and not even weaned by a clan (a very important clear cut source of lineage in Allah's System) like Joseph and Moses (Moses was weaned by his mother as he refused to be weaned by anyone else) become a member of a clan?
Both Joseph and Moses and all others of the progeny of Jacob / Israel, were not members of the Fir'3un family/clan (who were the original inhabitants in the area before Abraham migrated there)...
they were (Joseph and Moses and Bani Israel) descendants of monotheist immigrants, although they settled there (as progeny of Abraham)...There are two different peoples, though most Arabians, the peoples descending from Ibrahim, and the original dwellers when he moved to their land... the original dwellers were most probably not monotheists...
You are picking red herrings and trying to debunk with a very poor argument and splitting of hairs...
Now to you, how do you define precisely a tribe?
theNabster -- is there are problem in your reading comprehension?
Why are you directing your questions to me and agreeing with me?
Direct your questions to Pazuzu instead...
Therefore, you clearly contradict Qur'an which says they are different people's...
-
Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive! Sir Walter Scott
Peace Pazuzu -- did you not write this?
clan
n- (Social Science / Anthropology & Ethnology) a group of people interrelated by ancestry or marriage
- (Social Science / Anthropology & Ethnology) a group of families with a common surname and a common ancestor
Therefore, you clearly contradict Qur'an which says they are different people's...
7127 and said the chiefs from nation Pharaoh you leave Moses and his nation to cause corruption in the earth and forsake you and your gods said we will kill their sons and will let live their women/females and indeed over them subjugators
Now you can admit your error, redo your theory make good and ask forgiveness or continue to spread corruption.
Peace NDP
Be reasonable and stop picking on Pazuzu just because he used the English word "clan". what wrong with what you quoted from Pazuzu earlier ?
Quote from Pazuzu on Today at 044220 AM
And it's the proper name of a family or clan that Joseph lived among. And this the same clan that Moses was later raised brought up in. And the head of this clan was called Far3oun... Pazuzu again made it clear Reply #48 on Today at 080828 AM Did I ever claim that Joseph and Moses where from among Far3oun's own people? Or did I simply say that they lived among them, ever since the time when their great ancestor, Abraham, had migrated to the region?
I do not see 'clan' being misused, and where do you see a contradiction with the Quraan? Still if you disagreed, with his use of the word 'clan', you could have shown some dignity by suggesting the appropriate word. -
NDP, peace
if you agree with me, then you agree with pazuzu...
and you didn't wish to answer my question... which is fine...
we have issues of miscommunications... and maybe wish to cling to the old maps (let us remember this important semantic principle the map/model is not the territory...)
the old maps are pretty shaky...
-
NDP, peace
if you agree with me, then you agree with pazuzu...
and you didn't wish to answer my question... which is fine...
we have issues of miscommunications... and maybe wish to cling to the old maps (let us remember this important semantic principle the map/model is not the territory...)
the old maps are pretty shaky...
OK this is getting ridiculous -- simple question, do you agree with this by Pazuzu yes or no?
Quote from Pazuzu on Yesterday at 044220 AM
... And it's the proper name of a family or clan that Joseph lived among. And this the same clan that Moses was later raised brought up in. And the head of this clan was called Far3oun, and his wife raised Moses when he was a child. And this was the same clan from which Abraham married.Peace NDP
Be reasonable and stop picking on Pazuzu just because he used the English word "clan". You could have shown some dignity by suggesting the appropriate word when he clarified what he meant Reply #48 on Today at 080828 AM Did I ever claim that Joseph and Moses where from among Far3oun's own people? Or did I simply say that they lived among them, ever since the time when their great ancestor, Abraham, had migrated to the region?Peace IMHO,
Why not let him answer for himself -- obviously you missed his whole theory that it all occurred in Yemen; same people, same language, same everything and when caught in a contradiction with Qur'an he claimed that he said otherwise and the cheerleaders jump out of the internet bushes to lend support and applaud! bravo
Let's clarify and ask him -- Pazuzu, were the people of Moses and the people of Pharaoh separate nations or not?
-
Noon dhe plume, peace...
It seems you are not very good at reading maps... now go back to the map of Arabia, and think about the different locations, and the people living in them... tribes can also be defined by the territory they predominantly live into (along with lineage)...
The area where Far'3un and his clan lived is not the same area as where the non Hebrews lived... when you cross to the Asir region, you become a Hebrew... we do not know precisely how linked they were by lineage, but certainly by status, the Hebrews (outsiders) were considered of lower class... that pretty much defines two castes/clans to me...
Of those "Hebrews" there was a Monotheist named Abraham, of special status with Allah who promised him that his progeny will be very numerous...
Abraham managed to marry into a specific family of Asir, the Fir'3un family / clan... Their members were a ruling family, and ruled over Misrim... whoever they were, they were not from Abraham's lineage...
Now you can carry on extrapolating from pazuzu's story flow, which in my view has been pretty tight up to now...
I have a little element of contention, and it does not have any destructive effect on the edifice, so I leave it until the end as it might be clarified, and unlike you, will not be rude and make it an issue to disturb the flow of what I think is an important very credible narrative...
and I speak as a potential (being careful, despite my genealogical family trees - mother and father) descendant of Mohammed, and descendant of Dahyya Kahina Jewess Queen of the Aures... so this information interests me, as maybe it will prove or disprove that for me.... -
Thank you Pazuzu! bravo
Finally, little by little, thanks to your elucidations, The Qur'an becomes more and more clear and understandable to us who read it only in translations...
-
Peace All,
I would also like to thanks Pazuzu for his passion on this subject matter.
Been looking all this while about Bani Israel and its relation to prophet Mohammad. This is the best logical explanation i ever had.
Also would like to see more to come to challenge Pazuzu, like NDPlume so that this narration are more refine and accurate.
Thanks again Pazuzu for Sharing and Also NDP for polishing handshake
Peace.
-
I have not verified all the details that come into play in the threads posted by Pazuzu concerning the narratives and references of the Qur'an concerning previous prophets, but for me there is a macrologic which no matter how much details may be adjusted or not adjusted, that makes what is put forward in those threads much more in conformity with Qur'an and its logic than all the stories that we have been fed previously.
Qur'an says that God sent warners to all peoples, not just to one people. Opposite Christianity, which needs of a narrative that announces the birth of the Saviour, that is Jesus Christ, muslims as explained in the Qur'an are in no need whatsoever that a certain person be born anywhere so that we can be forgiven, and if that person is not born we are not forgiven. Also muslims do not have to belong to special people with a "special relationship" (more special than others so that the preference in revelation would explain it) with God.
So why would Qur'an spend so much of the book telling stories of the prohets of a particular people who are not the Prophet's people and do not have all that much to do with Him or his people. Why not expound about the warners of China or Australia or Japan or the romans or the greeks or the Egyptians, more at hand, or the Amerindians. That those people went astray does not matter, bani Israil, what has been commonly undrstood by that, also went astray. But if those people were the Prophet's people or those close to him, part of his environment, then it does make all sense.
Otherwise the only reason to give them special treatment and to refer to them without much introduction or preamlbe would be that God thought that at a given time all peoples in the world would be submerged and brainwashed into the stories of the christians and the yahud. Therefore that we would take those stories for granted.
I do not take seriously the second possibility.
There are more reasons for me to take very seriously and respect what Pazuzu has put forward, and I see that, however shocking it may be for some people to be told that the comings and goings of christians or yahudi are no more important nor consequential than those of other people, nor less of course, archeology is starting to look more soberly into the ground and not to take for granted what has been taken unquestioningly up to now trying to fit findings into biblical narrative rather than the opposite.
I think that we may be at the beginning of a great "revolution".
Let us hope and pray that the Imperials do not blow everything back to the stone age.
Salaam
-
I think that we may be at the beginning of a great "revolution".
Let us hope and pray that the Imperials do not blow everything back to the stone age.Salaam
Salaam Huruf
I too get this feeling that he world is at a turning point and earth will soon reveal its secrets. I'm conviced that the imperialists will find them helpless when things start to turn around, but it won't be easy and I pray that believers come out of it winners.
peace -
Salaam
Pazuzu saidThat article is stating that Far3oun's people, as well as Hagar, wife of Abraham before them, were MUSRI, not MISRI.
confused According to this theory, Agar, Sarai's handmaid (Gen., xvi, 1), was not Misrite or Egyptian, but Musrite, i.e. from Musri, in northern Arabia. Abraham (Gen., xii, 10) did not go down into Misraim, or Egypt, where he is said to have received from the Pharaoh a gift of menservants and handmaids, but into Misrim, or Musri, in northern Arabia. Joseph, when bought by the Ismaelites, or Madianites, i.e. Arabs, was not brought into Egypt (Misraim), but to Musri, or Misrim, in north Arabia, which was the home of the Madianites.
http//oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Arabia
I highlighted it so we can see different spellings
peace -
Pazuzu saidThat article is stating that Far3oun's people, as well as Hagar, wife of Abraham before them, were MUSRI, not MISRI.
According to this theory, Agar, Sarai's handmaid (Gen., xvi, 1), was not Misrite or Egyptian, but Musrite, i.e. from Musri, in northern Arabia. Abraham (Gen., xii, 10) did not go down into Misraim, or Egypt, where he is said to have received from the Pharaoh a gift of menservants and handmaids, but into Misrim, or Musri, in northern Arabia. Joseph, when bought by the Ismaelites, or Madianites, i.e. Arabs, was not brought into Egypt (Misraim), but to Musri, or Misrim, in north Arabia, which was the home of the Madianites.
http//oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Arabia
I highlighted it so we can see different spellingsThat's not entirely accurate. The article is showing that Arabia was the source of all Semitic peoples, and disproving that MSR = Egypt. However, the location they placed Abraham in is too far to the north. Furthermore, there is absolutely no proof that Madian (or Midian, as some pronouce it) is where it is thought to be.
Some believe it is in Sudan, others say the Bible is not clear as to the location.
It's all a bunch of conjecture.
Dear IMHO, please pay close attention to this
{And to Midyan was their brother Shu'ayb, he said "My people, serve Allah, you have no god besides Him, and do not give short in the measure and the weight. I see you in prosperity, and I fear for you the retribution of a day that is surrounding * And my people, give full in the measure and the weight equitably, and do not hold back from the people what is theirs, and do not roam the land corrupting * What will remain for you with Allah is far better if you are believers. And I am not a guardian over you *They said "O Shu'ayb, does your salat order you that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do not do with our money as we please? It seems only you are the compassionate, the wise!" * He said "O my people, do you see that if I am on clear evidence from my Rabb, and He has provided me with good provision from Him, then I would not want to contradict by doing what I am prohibiting you from. I only want to make right what I can, and my guidance is only with Allah. In Him I place my trust, and to Him I repent." * "And my people, let not your hatred towards me incriminate you that you suffer the fate of what afflicted the people of Noah, or the people of Hud, or the people of Saleh; and the people of Lot were not far off from you."}....
It appears from the above verses that the Madyanites were expert traders, who "cheated in the scales and measure", so Allah was reprimanding them through His messenger Shuai'b. The last verse says clearly that the people to whom Hud , Saleh and Lot were sent were not far from Midyan. There is absolutely ZERO proof that the towns of Sodom and Ghomorrah, are anywhere in or near the Dead Sea. Archeologists have combed every inch of that sea, and found nothing there. The Old Testament says that the people of Lot were destroyed by a rain of fire and sulphur. The Quran also expands this, and mentions a rain of "cooked clay". Can this be anything other than a volcanic eruption? Show me were there are volcanic peaks in the Jordan/Palestine area?
The funny thing is that you read about Russian scientists who wanted to DIVE down to the bottom of the Dead Sea to fing teh remains of Lot's town rotfl The yare wasting their time and money for nothing. The Quran clearly says that the remains of Lot's town were left as a CLEAR SIGN, and that the people of Muhamad passed by it night and day. How can it be at the bottom of a sea??
This is the delusion I have been devoting all these threads to expose. The LIE which claims that "The Levant was the Land of the Prophets". Have we found any proof of the prophets in the Levant??
Search your soul for the answer.
I have one more post to make here, then I will start a new thread "In the Footsteps of the Patriarch"., where I will reveal to you exactly where the people of Ad , Thamud, and Lot were. And from that, you will deduce where Midian was. I will also reveal just who the Msrim are, and put an end to this puzzle once and for all.
Also, concerning the issue of tribes and clans A tribe is actually a conglomeration of clans. For example, the Tribe of Quraysh encompased many clans, among them the clan of Bani Hashem.
Likewise, the Tribe of Israel eventually contained 12 clans.Peace...
-
The last verse says clearly that the people to whom Hud , Saleh and Lot were sent were not far from Midyan.
Who is he who has said this?
Shoaib alahissalam did not say this.
I dont know why people in their pasion to support stupid conjectural gossips of other people go to the extent of distorting and adding words which were never stated by anyone and quoted in Qur'aam. What Shoaib alahissalam said was this;
-
Which organization has made this rather stupid claim?
Salaam
This is not stupid claim I too have seen a documentary in wich an Isreali team, who beleived that degree of salt in the Dead Sea could be due to a hail of Sodium chloride. They searced underwater for any sign of Lut's civilization as well as for the lost Ark and ( nope
Since it was a documentary on Britis TV I do not have a link maybe bro Pazuzu can give us a link to studies done on this subject.
peace -
Who is he who has said this?
Shoaib alahissalam did not say this.
I dont know why people in their pasion to support stupid conjectural gossips of other people go to the extent of distorting and adding words which were never stated by anyone and quoted in Qur'aam. What Shoaib alahissalam said was this;
Salaam
Calm down Mazher here the explaination
And to Midyan was their brother Shu'ayb.....that you suffer the fate of what afflicted the people of Noah, or the people of Hud, or the people of Saleh; and the people of Lot were not far off from you."}.... = The last verse says clearly that the people to whom Hud , Saleh and Lot were sent were not far from Midyan
For furhter confirmation Questions/Comments on the Quran / Re Ayah Of The Day
? on November 21, 2011, 011454 PM
@ Pazuzu
Thank you for your reply. I understand all your posts will finally lead us to the location of prophet Mohamud. Anxiously waiting for that!
Jazakallah Khair -
Peace,
and why would Messenger Shuayb (P) talk to his community about people they have no emotional link to,
after all he is trying to appeal to them to be wary of their fate, and why should they feel anything to people they know nothing about, or do not feel any closeness to...
psychologically it would not make sense, it is like warning them about the fate of the South American Aztecs (America was not probably yet discovered) or better of the fate of another species (neanderthals, or while you are at it the dinosaurs rotfl )
-
Peace,
and why would Messenger Shuayb (P) talk to his community about people they have no emotional link to,
after all he is trying to appeal to them to be wary of their fate, and why should they feel anything to people they know nothing about, or do not feel any closeness to...
psychologically it would not make sense, it is like warning them about the fate of the South American Aztecs (America was not probably yet discovered) or better of the fate of another species (neanderthals, or while you are at it the dinosaurs rotfl )
Peace,
Listen to yourself making fun of the book; psychologically then why should people today across world listen to Qur'an and it's stories about an Arab and Jew tribe in freaking Yemen?
-
And to Midyan was their brother Shu'ayb.....that you suffer the fate of what afflicted the people of Noah, or the people of Hud, or the people of Saleh; and the people of Lot were not far off from you."}.... = The last verse says clearly that the people to whom Hud , Saleh and Lot were sent were not far from Midyan
This seems a translation and understanding by someone who did not know how the sentences of Arabic are constructed and related with each other. That stupid guy sees Waw and starts talking as if he had read an English sentence.