Road of the Patriarch
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Peace Pazuzu,
http//i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb386/Gorefiendel/Thamudic.jpg
Thamudic Inscription - Sana?a Museum
To be continued?
Great research but I have a question If the Quran was revealed in south Arabia then you would expect it to be written in the Thamudic script. So why was it written in the northern Nabataean script?
Peace,
Hadi
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Peace,
The key to understanding the ?Chapter of the Elephant? lies in the phrase ?tayran ababeel? which
1051 did not you see how dealt your Lord with companions the elephant
1052 did not He make their plan in astray
1053 and He sent on them birds flocks
1054 striking them with stones from baked clay
1055 so He made them like straw chewed upIf the Quran was revealed in south Arabia then you would expect it to be written in the Thamudic script. So why was it written in the northern Nabataean script?
Yes and he should tell us about "the inscription of Abraha" -- who was he and Yemeni history at the time?
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/figs-stones/large/color_lg_jpeg/fig04_c_lg.jpg
(i)
Transliteration
b kh ya l / r h m n n / w m s ya h ha /
m l k n / a b r ha / z ya b m n / m l k / s b a / w z r ya d n / w h dh r m d t
Transcription
B'khail / ar-rahman / wmaseeha /
malikan / Abraha / Zaybm / malik /
sab'a / w zarydan / w hadarmaut
Translation
With help The Almighty and messiah, king Abraha Zeebman (king's title), the king of Saba'a, Zuridan and Hadrmaut.(ii)
w ya m n t / w r a a'in r b ha m r / ta w d m /
w t ha m t / s ta r w / z n / s ta r n / k gh z ya w
w yement / wa r'a rab hamw / Twadam / w thamat / satro / zn / satran / K'ghazow
and Yemen and the tribes (on)
the mountains and the coast wrote these lines on his battle -
Noon wrote "Yes and he should tell us about "the inscription of Abraha" -- who was he and Yemeni history at the time?
I'll tell you who he was
Abraha was most probably an Ethiopian (Aksumite) VICEROY of Yemen. He later proclaimed himself to be King of Sheba, Hadhramauwt, and Mai'n. The elephants that he reportedly used (if that's even true) to terrorize the tribes of that region could not possibly have made their way to Mecca. Elephants are short-range animals that require enormous quantities of food, as well as shade and water. They could not possibly have made the trip from Sheba and Hadhramut to the Hijaz area. The period in which he ruled was marked by Judeo-Christian wars in South Arabia, and also the struggle between Rome and Persia as they both vied for control of the Red Sea coast (This is in addition to the religious bickering among the two great powers). This is documented. I am not making it up.
Please see the following link http//www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Abraha
As for your rendering of the verses of Surah 105, I am sorry, but I don't agree with you. I don't believe in the myth of birds throwing stones at armies of men riding elephants.
Furthermore, I have checked the meaning of the Arabic phrase in several Arabic sources, and they all point to leaves or outer sheaths of a plant whose fruit has been eaten (emptied) from the inside, and are easily blown by the wind.
Hadi wrote Great research but I have a question If the Quran was revealed in south Arabia then you would expect it to be written in the Thamudic script. So why was it written in the northern Nabataean script?
It's because you are confusing the "arabi" dialect with the "arabi" alphabet. Even the most stubborn of classical linguists, will tell you that Arabic is a south Semitic "language". And even the staunchest, proudest and most stubborn Saudi resident of the Hijaz cannot deny that Yemen (meaning South Arabia in general - not necessarilly the geo-political entity of today's Yemen) is the origin of all the Arabs. The alphabet used as the vessel for that language is a different matter entirely.
I could write for example, the following "zhahabtu ila'l bayti". An Englishman could certainly read the sentence, but he wouldn?t understand what it says. It's actually "arabic" using Latin letters (It says I went home). Arabic, as a dialect, was not created by the Nabateans. It is far older than anything the Nabateans contrived in their entire history. Arabic was ALL OVER the peninsula, from north to south, and existed side by side with the other dialects, which the Quran called "a3jami" (meaning lacking - missing something - struggling to convey - imperfect).
If you compare the "arabic" dialect with Aramaic, Syriac, the so-called "Hebrew", Phoenician, etc... you will come to the realization that "arabic" has a greater number of phonemes than ANY other Semitic dialect. It also has a larger alphabet, and a more complex articulation. It is more "complete" and articulate (eloquent) that the others. The other dialects, by contrast, mixed letters together, and ultimately ended up with fewer phonemes. This is what caused some linguists of the late 19th to mid- 20th century to proclaim that "arabic" must be the prototype Semitic language, simply because, in the world of phonetics and grammar, a "whole" cannot possibly evolve from a "part". It's the other way around. This is a very serious issue, which requires an entire thread of its own. All these other languages are in fact different dialects which diverged from "arabi" (which means eloquent).
So your question as to why the Quran was not written in Thamudic is because at the time of Muhammad (P), the Arabic alphabet that we know today (the letters - - ج had already begun spreading all over Arabia, and was the rapidly growing new vehicle of expression for the "arabic" dialect. If the Quran was revealed in 1500 BC, you can bet your money that it would have used Thamudic or even Sheban alphabet to express itself.
My belief - and you don't have to share it with me - is that the orignal "arabi" (the proto-Semitic dialect) first appeared in the Asir region, which is actually part of southern Saudi Arabia today (not the far far south that is geo- political Yemen). This was also the region where Muhammad (P) began preaching, and where I believe the Quran was revealed. When humanity spread all over Arabia, from that central point, several dialects eventually broke from the main, and appeared all over the peninsula. Later on, with the Semitic migrations northwards, towards the Levant and Mesopotamia, they took their dialects with them, and developed new alphabets as vehicles to express them. The concepts of "language" and "alphabet" are not the same.
Peace and best regards.
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The small "birds" will combust immediately upon approaching the burning stones (even before grabbing on it beak or claws). Furthermore, they need to carry big stones to make it effective over the big elephants, means the "birds" must big enough. What kind of bird is that? Does it like a flying dragon in Narnia..
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Thank you Pazuzu bravo bravo bravo sun
Pazuzu wrote
This is a very serious issue, which requires an entire thread of its own. All these other languages are in fact different dialects which diverged from "arabi" (which means eloquent
I wish you could dedicate a thread of its own about the Arab language, because I agree with you that it might be the very first and most primordial language of humanity.
As we once discussed in the past, "Jews" claiming that "God looked in to the Torah and created the world with Hebrew Alphabet (Alef Bet)", might simply be another hoax? -\ confused brickwall
I was always wondering why would Allah choose Arabic to communicate the Qur'an in it, as it was meant to be for all humanity for all times and even to for the worlds (including the Jinns), and you once hinted the answer to me pointing to Arabic to be the seed of all human languages. group
May Allah reward you for all your noble efforts!
Peace
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I do not know about all the languages, I am not knowledgeable in linguistics and filological studies or knowledge of so many languages of very diverse sructure as there are over the earth, but concerning the semitic languages, as far as I can reason, I think Arabic would quelify indeed as the matrix from which the others sprung. Unless somebody digs up a better qualified one.
Salaam
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Abraha was most probably an Ethiopian (Aksumite) VICEROY of Yemen. He later proclaimed himself to be King of Sheba, Hadhramauwt, and Mai'n.
Please see the following link http//www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/AbrahaWho succeeded him and what time-frame?
As for your rendering of the verses of Surah 105, I am sorry, but I don't agree with you. I don't believe in the myth of birds throwing stones at armies of men riding elephants.
Who said anything about myths?
1051 did not you see how dealt your Lord with companions the elephant
1053 and He sent on them birds flocks
bird
birds -- you want to discuss exactly the meaning with trailing alif?
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Tay-Ya-Ra = flew, hasten to it, outstripped, become foremost, fled, love, become attached, famous, conceive, scatter/disperse, fortune.
I do not know about all the languages, I am not knowledgeable in linguistics and filological studies or knowledge of so many languages of very diverse sructure as there are over the earth, but concerning the semitic languages, as far as I can reason, I think Arabic would quelify indeed as the matrix from which the others sprung. Unless somebody digs up a better qualified one.
Salaam
Peace huruf,
http//oi42.tinypic.com/1z64owp.jpg
This topic has a dozen sub topics and is all over the place like the rest of Pazuzu's threads. Unless people learn to focus, resolve one issue at-a-time, it's pointless to plaster the boards with numerous speculations and hearsay which all it does is create confusion and clutter. Then we have all the cheerleaders who contribute nothing to the discussion except spam/noise their every other post.
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Peace huruf,
http//oi42.tinypic.com/1z64owp.jpg
This topic has a dozen sub topics and is all over the place like the rest of Pazuzu's threads. Unless people learn to focus, resolve one issue at-a-time, it's pointless to plaster the boards with numerous speculations and hearsay which all it does is create confusion and clutter. Then we have all the cheerleaders who contribute nothing to the discussion except spam/noise their every other post.
Agree with you Noon.. even 'human linguistic' alone is a complex subject to discuss.
And most definitely Pazuzu hypothesis is wrong.
There's no such thing as 'fitri language' and 'arabic is not the origin of all languages'.But again, I don't see much use on debating this issue.. as I see Pazuzu's main intention and objective is more towards "Yemen/Southern Arabia Hegemonism"..
Which doesn't have anything to do with being a "Good" or "Bad"..
Anybody has the right to believe in whatever they want... as truth stands out clear from error..Salam / Peace
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Seems that nobody has said anything abour protosemitic for the momento, I have been seeing around a little and what seems to be certain concerning the proto semitic lady is that it is a hypothesis -not to harp on the thing, but it being a fact- just as much a hypothesis as the one put forward by Pazuzu and others.
I mean, to put a diagram with the hypothetical chronological appearance of languages given names and sorted out hypothetically is a working insturment is not a proof of anything. Just as good to suppose that as to suppose that in fact if there is a protosemitic, that protosemitic might have been in fact the a earliest version of Arabic.
Salaam
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I mean, to put a diagram with the hypothetical chronological appearance of languages given names and sorted out hypothetically is a working insturment is not a proof of anything. Just as good to suppose that as to suppose that in fact if there is a protosemitic, that protosemitic might have been in fact the a earliest version of Arabic.
Your statement of "Proto semitic is an earliest version of Arabic" is TRUE.
As TRUE as "Proto semitic is an earliest version of Hebrew, Aramaic, Phoenician, Amharic, Assyrian and Babylonian language".
And "Pre Proto Semitic" is an earliest version of "Proto Semitic".Like I said; Human migration pattern and biological + cultural evolution is a complex issue..
Yet the evolution pattern should go from Simpler -> More Complex..
All semitic languages can be categorized as "Complex" languages, there are genders, declension, cases etc..
As thus it's not an 'early language'.There are far more simpler languages in the world today which are genderless and with far more simpler cases and no declension. (Such as polynesians) Those simpler languages is a stronger candidate than 'any semitic language' for 'earlier languages' the language that all of our early ancestor spoke...
But again I think "tracing the root of all languages" is not the main objective of Pazuzu or anybody else in this matter.
The objective is more towards to show "Yemen / Southern Arabia hegemony above all cultures/languages"..Salam / Peace
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I have not seen that Pazuzu has spoken or purported or promoted any hegemony of any kind. He has put forward some explanations of matters dealt with in the Qur'an which some people reject while assuming other hegemonic ideas. But for someone who has a signature like yours I guess that to take anything Arab without denigrating it might be outrageous challenge.
As to linguistic theories, there are many indeed and none has been proven true, more true than others. You are not revealing anything saying that there are many kinds of languages of many types and structures, we are well aware of that.
Concerning semitic languages, my impression is that the likeliest candidate to being the prototype is Arabic, notwithstanding your contention that languages should go from simpler to more complex. It may be so or not, there are many examples of the opposite. At any rate that would also be a hypothesis and you have not brought anything about protosemitic that enlightens the question any more.
Salaam
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But for someone who has a signature like yours I guess that to take anything Arab without denigrating it might be outrageous challenge.
Another unproven hypothesis.. rotfl rotfl rotfl
And how does 'my signature' got to do with our discussion?By the way; by blood I'm an "Iraqi".. whether Iraqi is an arab.. that's left for 'politics' to answer.. I can be an arab by modern nationalistic definition or babylonian / assyrian as well..
Concerning semitic languages, my impression is that the likeliest candidate to being the prototype is Arabic
Again you're not being 'objective' here.. perhaps due to your 'arabic' blood?? Which clouded your judgement?
I can say with the same confident level that Assyrian language is the prototype of semitic language.notwithstanding your contention that languages should go from simpler to more complex. It may be so or not, there are many examples of the opposite.
It's less likely.. as many other of human cultural element..
An example on 'clothing'... how would 'earlier people' dress?
Like This?
http//4.bp.blogspot.com/_gCn9Jo-iOCU/SuWMMb-f5lI/AAAAAAAAAFk/Dlg0YVY7y0I/s400/arabs.jpgOr like this?
http//images.travelpod.com/tripwow/photos/ta-00b6-0e60-cb13/papua-women-indonesia-indonesia+12902385220-tpfil02aw-24681.jpg
Again this strengthen the simple->complex evolution path, the polynesians/papuan languages are genderless, no declension or cases. much more simpler than any semitic languages.
This will be my last post on this topic.. as this discussion has nothing to do with being 'good' or 'bad'.
Adam, Abraham, Moses etc.. can be in Antarctic or Mars for all I care..You're free to believe whatever you want, yet truth stands out clear from error...
Salam / Peace
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Yet the evolution pattern should go from Simpler -> More Complex..
We are talking about language here, not living organisms. And many linguists, starting from the 1960's, as well as experts in the field of phonetics, do not agree with your stance.
You need to broaden your perspective and stop relying on wikipedia.com (or other "wikis" of its ilk), as a source of knowledge, because the people who post on those sites are simply reiterating what they have been taught since their school days. These people can't grasp the difference between oral speech and written alphabet. When I say Arabic is the oldest language, I do NOT mean its alphabet in any way, shape or form. I mean the oral arabic speech, which contains easlily 100x more phonemes than Hebrew, and a vocabulary that is easily 100x that of the former, could not possibly have evolved from Hebrew. The oral speech can exist thousands of years before its written, alphabetical form. This is what they fail to grasp.
You need to read the works of scholars like
- Sabatino Moscati
- Sigrid Hunke
- Pierre Rossi (IF you can find an English translation of his works)
- Ahmad Dawood
- Kamal Salibi (to whom Hebrew was almost like a native language, alongside Arabic)
- G.R.Driver (professor of Modern Hebrew at Oxford University).
Finally, I urge you to check these out
http//www.alislam.org/topics/arabic/The%20source%20of%20all%20the%20languages.pdf
http//www.alislam.org/topics/arabic/English%20traced%20to%20Arabic.pdf
Before you dismiss these as the ramblings of a misguided Ahmadiyya Muslim, you need to know that the TRUTH can be told by the tongue of anyone. And what this "misguided" person from Pakistan is saying happens to also ring a bell with many other scholars from all regions of the world.
These scholars have all confirmed that the spoken (ORAL) Arabic of the Quran existed side by side with Aramaic, Phoenician, Thamudic, and Sabean, even during the "biblical" times. Of course this will come as a shock to you, and to all others who have taken conventional and inherited beliefs as the authority over the truth, and choose to live in arrogance and denial.
They have also confirmed that ALL the so-called "Semitic" languages were in fact more accurately DIALECTS which evolved from one mother tongue. And that the absolute closest to that original proto-tongue is Arabic. This origianal speech, in its pure, oral form, was spoken in SW Arabia, a region that has been proven to be the origin of all Semitic migrations. WIKIPEDIA admits this now.
And even laymen like you and I as well
Try this
http//www.nidokidos.org/threads/28832-The-Arabic-Language-the-Root-of-all-Languages
Did you know, for instance, that the name "Europa", given to that continent, was derived from a legend of a south Arabian princess called "3arruba"?
Did you know that the ancient name of Sana'a (capital of Yemen) was UZAL , a name which appears in the OT, and that the traditions of the region labeled it as city of Shem, son of Noah? And that it is the oldest human settlement on Earth, established by the son of Noah himself, right after the Great Flood? Why is there no trace of this cutlture in Palestine? Can you answer that? Why is it that the Quran mentions the MOTHER of TOWNS, and it just so happens that the oldest Quranic manuscript in history was found stashed in a mosque in Sana'a, while there hasn't been a single relic of Muhammad (P) in their alleged "holy" city of Mecca?
Did you know that among the descendends of Noah, whose names are Shem, Uzal, Hazaramaveth, Shibam, are all names of ancient Yemeni cities, and that all these names appear to the letter in the Old Testament? Call me crazy, but why don't you go look up this information? And why are the names of the 125+ tribes returning from the Exile, who appear on the Persian roster of king Cyrus, all happen to be "by coincidence" names of ancient Yemeni tribes?
The objective is more towards to show "Yemen / Southern Arabia hegemony above all cultures/languages"
Wrong.
The purpose is to show you where the origin of the divine messages mentioned in the Quran where, and where the TRUE and FORGOTTEN land of the prophets was, as opposed to the FAKE land of prophets which has been repeatedly fed to usand marketed as Palestine. I am not proving hegemony, nor am I "obssessed" with Yemen. What I am "obssessed" with is finding the TRUTH. You show me a shred of proof that Palestine, Ethiopia, Venezuela or Tazmania was the land of the Prophets, and I will discard Yemen like an old shoe. But until then, I suggest you refrain from making baseless slander.
The ancient peoples who lived in Mesopotamia and Phoenicia did not magically drop from the sky, as many here on this forum believe. They came from South Arabia, carrying with them their cultures, religious beliefs, and legends. And among these legends was a Great Flood that has been told and retold in several versions, since before 3000 BC.
And there is more proof coming your way...
Peace..