Who descended from Jannah ?

GROAN

The word "iblees" is derived from the root verb "ba-la-sa" . If I were to chose a term in English that comes closest to doing this word justice, I would say it is "to despair". The adjective "mublisoon" is also derived from this root, and appears several times in the Quran.

Salaam Aleikum Brother Pazuzu,

You've become a regular well of knowledge to me and, I'm sure, many others, for which I'm truly grateful. I don't doubt your assertion that iblees means "to despair", however it seems strange to me that a being, whom Allah (swt) has denounced as arrogant, should be connoted as despairing, doesn't it? I wonder, could it also mean to 'induce despair' i.e. one who induces despair (in the minds of mankind as it were), as that would seem to make more sense? hmm

Student_of_Allah

Shalom everyone,

Thanks for your responses. However, I did not get anything conclusive on the part of the number of people that descended. I got a bit confused because of God saying "All of you". I dont know arabic well to understand if that can be said to just 2 people. In English, I would rather say both of you. I would use "all of you" if there are more than 2 people. If there were more than 2 people excluding Satan, then adam and eve were not alone. O You see what I am saying ?

Innitially I thought that satan descended prior to them. But later I find him tempting the poor kids in the garden. So, he didnt descend before them. Unless we resort to other vague theories which are extremely speculative and hypothetical without any guarantee to be true.

@Pazuzu
Your posts are really interesting. I posted a reply in one of our threads concerning the origin of life. I am still awaiting reply to that.

PEACE

---------------- Student of Allah

IMHO

Shalom everyone,
Innitially I thought that satan descended prior to them. But later I find him tempting the poor kids in the garden. So, he didnt descend before them. Unless we resort to other vague theories which are extremely speculative and hypothetical without any guarantee to be true.
PEACE

---------------- Student of Allah

Salaam
713 He said, "Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced."
One explanation could be that Iblees descended from the rank of an angel to the debased rank of a Jinn, so he had to leave the upper heavens where only angles are allowed. At that time Adam was not yet released into Jannah as only after Adams wife had been created were they given leave to stay in Paradise, with the caution not to eat from the forbidden tree.
Also if only Adam and his wife were asked to leave the Jannah than the wording in surah 724 would mean that it?s man and woman who will be each other?s enemies, rather than shaytan and man. hmm
724 He said, "Descend as enemies to one another; on earth you will have residence and provisions until the appointed time."
So I think three were ordered to descend; Adam and his wife and satan, which means the three of them would be each other?s enemies. I think Satan is indeed the enemy of humans and humans are his enemy but man and woman should not be enemies then if we look at how Eve got the blame for all wrong done it seems that there is curs of anomosity between man and women too. hmm
Salaam

Paradox_Uncreated

I also reached the conclusion that Iblis meant despair, quite some time ago. Satan follows his desire. Satan is also the rejected. Promiscuity, rejection, despair and disbelief, considering oneself superior to mankind, firespirit, and founding religions of idolatry, with a feeble cunning, is again transgression - going too far.

KDC501

No Quranic basis?

{You shall go forth with My servants during the night; you will be pursued * And cross the bahr quickly; their troops will be drowned * How many gardens and springs did they leave behind? * And crops and an honorable station? * And blessings that they enjoyed? * Thus it was; and We caused another people to inherit it. * Neither the heaven, nor the earth wept over them, and they were not respited. * And We saved the Children of Israel from the humiliating agony * From Pharaoh; he was a transgressing tyrant.}...

Peace...

Wow pazuzu is this all that you bring to the table to prove a point???? These verses DON'T specifically point that the children of Israel dwell in Misra after the exdous. These verses are vague and are left to conjecture. In order to get the whole story you need to examine the entire Quran....

And here's my proof again. I hope this time you will answer me since you have avoided my points before.....

7137 We let the people who were oppressed inherit the east and the west of the land which We have blessed, and good word of your Lord was completed towards the Children of Israel. For they were patient, and We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people were doing, and what they contrived.

The land that was inherited by the Children of Israel is a blessed land. This is not the land of the Pharaoh . It was the land of there forefather's Abraham , Issac and Jacob and the 12 patriarchs

So where was this land and did the Children of Israel attempt a journey to go to this land.... The Quran provides the answer.

Where is the Holy Land????
396 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.
397 In it are clear signs the place of Abraham. Whoever enters it will be secure. Pilgrimage to the sanctuary is a duty from God for the people who can afford a means to it. Whoever rejects, and then God has no need of the worlds.

This holy land was resided near Bakka. And it my belief that this land is Jerusalem and NOT Mecca. Mecca is not Bakka. Bakka is a well know place among the Jews....

How lovely is Your dwelling-place, O Lord of Hosts. I long, I yearn for the courts of the Lord; my body and soul shout for joy to the living God ... Happy are those who dwell in Your house; they forever praise You. Happy is the man who finds refuge in You, whose mind is on the highways. They pass through the Valley of Baca, regarding it as a place of springs, as if the early rain had covered it with blessing ... Better one day in Your courts than a thousand ; I would rather stand at the threshold of God's house than dwell in the tents of the wicked Psalms 84

Did the Children of Israel attempt to Travel to the holy land???
520 Moses said to his people, "My people, remember God's favor upon you that he made amongst you prophets, and made you sovereigns, and he gave you what He had not given any from the worlds."

521 "O my people, enter the holy land that God Has decreed for you, and do not turn your backs, or you will become losers."

522 They said, "O Moses, in it are a mighty people, and we will not enter it until they leave. So when they leave, then we will enter it."

523 Among those who were afraid, two men whom God had blessed, said, "Enter upon them through the gate; when you enter it then you will be the victors. You shall put your trust in God if you had acknowledged."

524 They said, "O Moses, we will never enter it as long as they are in it, so go you and your Lord and fight, we will stay right here!" ( The land which they eventually inherited had MIGHTY PEOPLE. Which would imply that they may have to fight in order to obtain the land)

525 He said, "My Lord, I do not control except myself and my brother, so separate between us and between the wicked people."

526 He said, "Then it has become forbidden for them for forty years,and they will be lost in the land." Do not be sorrowful over the wicked people.

Two points need to highlighted here

(1) The land had mighty people in it and because it did they were hesitate to enter the land

(2) Because of there fear God banned them from entering the land for forty years and thus they became a WANDERING TRIBE LOST IN THE LAND. Strange that a people who had Misra as a dwelling place would need to wander or much less be lost in the land. Wouldn't you agree pazuzu????

Not satisfied. What about this???

261 You said, "O Moses, we will not be patient to one type of food, so call for us your Lord that He may bring forth what the earth grows of its beans, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions." He said, "Would you trade what is lowly with what is good?" Descend to (misra), you will have in it what you have asked for. They were thus stricken with humiliation and disgrace, and they remained under God's wrath for they were not appreciating God's signs, and killing the prophets with no justification. This is for what they have disobeyed and transgressed.

If these people occupied the land of misra then why is there problem of food??? Why would they need to go back to misra ( which is implied here as an shameful act)?????

These points show to me that MISRA WASN'T the place where they resided after the exdous. Not in a million years could this theory be correct since it doesn't fit and make any logical sense in the Quran.

In simple point form I'm going to reiterate my proofs.

The children of Israel became a wandering tribe. This means they didn't reside anywhere permanently.
They only had one type of food to eat. Wouldn't this be very strange for a people who dwelt in Misra with "Crops and luxurious dwellings???" . Could these verses (Sura 4423-31) more correctly imply that OTHER PEOPLE perhaps future generations of the people of Misra???
3)If the land was blessed AND THEY HAD (Misra) as a dwelling place then why the shame to descend back into it????
The blessed land that they were meant to inherit was the land of there forefathers.

These points don't fit into your theory which is why I completely disagree with your whole story that the Children of Israel dwelt in Misra after the exdous. The children of Israel were a wandering tribe according to the Quran. How could you interpret a "wandering people lost in the land or earth" as a people who dwelt in Misra ( fixed location) ??? Clearly the Quran shows to us that this is not the case.

Peace,

Kevin

Student_of_Allah

Shalom,

So Iblees was an angel now...........hmm. This reminds me of the hadith based weird story about Iblees that I read as a kid. According to that, Iblees was a jinn, who earns God's guidance and becomes the leaders of the angels. Then one day, when God creates a new creation, he denies to obey the command of God.... and you know the rest.

Anyways.... I think, about certain things, all we can do is speculate.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I hope we dont hijack the thread by offtopics. Please stay away from such things.

PEACE
---------------- Student of Allah

IMHO

Shalom,

So Iblees was an angel now...........hmm. This reminds me of the hadith based weird story about Iblees that I read as a kid. According to that, Iblees was a jinn, who earns God's guidance and becomes the leaders of the angels. Then one day, when God creates a new creation, he denies to obey the command of God.... and you know the rest.

Anyways.... I think, about certain things, all we can do is speculate.

.

PEACE
---------------- Student of Allah

Salaam
711 ...... We said to the angels "Submit to Adam;" so they submitted except for Iblees, he was not of those who submitted

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I hope we dont hijack the thread by offtopics. Please stay away from such things

Agree

IMHO

This holy land was resided near Bakka. And it my belief that this land is Jerusalem and NOT Mecca. Mecca is not Bakka. Bakka is a well know place among the Jews....

Peace,

Kevin

Salaam Kavin
I hope we dont hijack the thread by offtopics, so I shall post in appropriate thread regarding above quote.
Peace

huruf

I also reached the conclusion that Iblis meant despair, quite some time ago. Satan follows his desire. Satan is also the rejected. Promiscuity, rejection, despair and disbelief, considering oneself superior to mankind, firespirit, and founding religions of idolatry, with a feeble cunning, is again transgression - going too far.

By making of himself more than God make him, in fact he has closed his way to God, when one is enclosed one is in dispair, one cannot move. Idolatry closes the way, egolatry, closes the way.

Salaam

IMHO

While contemplating on this part of surah724 'He said, "Descend as enemies to one another' ........Could it be that not only includes satan vs humans, but also men vs women, as history shows that when males had power in their hands, according to them, it was the woman's fault what ever a man did; from Eve to Sarah to stories in hadith. All religions have to some extent blamed women for the wrongs in this world.
Now with the emergence of power granted to women in the 20th century, which I believe has happened for the first time in modern history, see how women are treating men. nope