Christian miracles
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Peace Abdul-Hadi, all,
I remember reading about Alma and the use in the Biblical scriptures. There are also rebuttals to it which is why I hesitated on using it. Since I am not an expert in these languages, I waited for someone with better knowledge to post it P Sorry hehe.
Mary is the best woman of mankind. If only more women followed her principles and what she stood for.
Peace
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AOA
free minds translation
Shalom Aleikhom,
The ayaats do not carry a timestamp. Chapter 19 verses 19 to 21 does not necessitate verse 22 and birth of Jesus to be taking place on the same day or the next day.
However, a valid argument can be put forth considering the reactions of her neighbours/relatives. But before that, one must beg the question.."Why did she have to go to a distant place to give birth to a baby ?" From there, I take the natural explanation, not saying that this means I AM CORRECT, but just explaining why I take the position that I do.
Considering "Kun fawakun" ---> Be and it is
I used THE BOOK to explain itself. I can not pick up a line used by an author and interpret it by using another person's mindset/psychology. Let me demonstrate it
197 "O Zachariah, We give you glad tidings of a son whose name is John. We have not given that name before to anyone."
198 He said "My Lord, how can I have a son when my wife is infertile, and I have reached a very old age?"
199 He said "It is such that your Lord has said. It is an easy thing for Me. And I had created you before, when you were not a thing."So from this story, we get the idea that when God says its easy, it does not necessarily mean that it was done INSTANTANEOUSLY. Otherwise, God would not provide Zachariah as an example himself, because Zachariah for sure was not born instantaneously.
2117 Initiator of the heavens and the earth, when He decrees a command, He merely says to it 'Be,' and it is.
Like some people here, I do interprete it as "he wants it and it happens". Since it does not state that it happens instantaneously, I do not take the trouble of stating that.
754 Your Lord is God who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He settled upon the Throne. The night runs away from the day, which seeks it continually; and the sun and the moon and the stars are commissioned by His command; to Him is the creation and the command. Glory to God, Lord of the worlds.
Can I not use this DEFINITIVE sign(754) to interpret the ambiguous sign(2117) ? Or should I focus only on the ambiguous one and seek to give it a meaning of my own ?
103 Your Lord is God who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He settled upon the Throne; He manages all affairs. There is no intercessor except after His permission. Such is God your Lord, so serve Him. Would you not remember?
Can I not use this DEFINITIVE sign(103) to interpret the ambiguous sign(2117) ? Or should I focus only on the ambiguous one and seek to give it a meaning of my own ?
117 He is the One who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, and His Throne was upon the water; so as to test who from among you works the best. And when you say "You will be resurrected after the death," those who have rejected say "This is but clear magic!"
Can I not use this DEFINITIVE sign(103) to interpret the ambiguous sign(2117) ? Or should I focus only on the ambiguous one and seek to give it a meaning of my own ?
2559 The One who has created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six days, then He settled upon the Throne. The Almighty; so ask Him for He is Expert
Can I not use this DEFINITIVE sign(2559) to interpret the ambiguous sign(2117) ? Or should I focus only on the ambiguous one and seek to give it a meaning of my own ?
324 God is the One who has created the heavens and the earth, and what is between them in six days, then He settled upon the Throne. You do not have besides Him any Lord, nor intercessor. Will you not then remember?
Can I not use this DEFINITIVE sign(324) to interpret the ambiguous sign(2117) ? Or should I focus only on the ambiguous one and seek to give it a meaning of my own ?
419 Say You are rejecting the One who has created the earth in two days, and you set up equals with Him. That is the Lord of the worlds.
Can I not use this DEFINITIVE sign(419) to interpret the ambiguous sign(2117) ? Or should I focus only on the ambiguous one and seek to give it a meaning of my own ?
5038 And We have created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six days, and no fatigue touched Us
Can I not use this DEFINITIVE sign(503 to interpret the ambiguous sign(2117) ? Or should I focus only on the ambiguous one and seek to give it a meaning of my own ?
7114 "While He created you in stages?"
Can I not use this DEFINITIVE sign(7114) to interpret the ambiguous sign(2117) ? Or should I focus only on the ambiguous one and seek to give it a meaning of my own ?
I wont even go into other details for the sake of simplicity in getting the point accross.
So, now, did all these creations(including you and me) happen due to his command ? Did He not create us ? If yes, how do you explain the above verses in the light of "Be and it is" ? I can not force anyone to interpret the text the way I do.
So, I use examples cited in the Qur'an to find possible interpretations of verses that are ambigious and requires details. "Be and it is" can mean instantaneous and EQUALLY it can mean "It happens if He wishes (without any fixed time span)". I chose the interpretaion that can be backed up by citing examples from the Qur'an.
Ofcourse I can be wrong as I am only a student, correct me and educate me if you think so. )
Peace
------------- Student of Allah -
AOA
The Qur'an doesn't outright (to my knowledge) say that he was not born with a virgin conception. At the same time it doesn't say that he was. If you use tasreef, meaning use the entire Qur'an to find the explanation, you will see that God has created these laws in the universe and that we live based on these laws. Whether it be gravity, the way our organs work, etc. they all have been constructed based on the laws that God has created. Similarly, Jesus' birth has to follow these laws.
Need to be careful here as to God's laws regarding the universe. The assumption being that we at present time, Januar 2012, know and fully understand God's universla laws and hence virgin birth is contrary to these laws.
Little caution my friend before 1979 if somebody had said you can mix sperm and female egg in a test tube it would result in pregnancy. it would have been considered impossible.
2ndly cloning is now an accepted fact ie pregnancy without a male input. Just a small matter to consider, how does anyone know that on rare occassions cloning has not naturally occured in the female uterus. I would be truly amazed if someone can provide a definitive proof. Check out the history of conception and you will surprised pregnancies reported in amazing circumstances, including women with intact hymen (apologies if this somehow offends anyone). I am sure you have come across 'for it is a wise child who knows it father'.coming back to Mary & conversation with God. If Mary was to concieve like every other female thenwhat was the point of the Almighty's conversaqtion with her. I mean she could have met a man-concieved, the child could have achieved what he was he meant to and every body could live happily ever after. The conversation therefore makes very little sense to me at least.
Regards -
AOA
Need to be careful here as to God's laws regarding the universe. The assumption being that we at present time, Januar 2012, know and fully understand God's universla laws and hence virgin birth is contrary to these laws.
Little caution my friend before 1979 if somebody had said you can mix sperm and female egg in a test tube it would result in pregnancy. it would have been considered impossible.
2ndly cloning is now an accepted fact ie pregnancy without a male input. Just a small matter to consider, how does anyone know that on rare occassions cloning has not naturally occured in the female uterus. I would be truly amazed if someone can provide a definitive proof. Check out the history of conception and you will surprised pregnancies reported in amazing circumstances, including women with intact hymen (apologies if this somehow offends anyone). I am sure you have come across 'for it is a wise child who knows it father'.coming back to Mary & conversation with God. If Mary was to concieve like every other female thenwhat was the point of the Almighty's conversaqtion with her. I mean she could have met a man-concieved, the child could have achieved what he was he meant to and every body could live happily ever after. The conversation therefore makes very little sense to me at least.
RegardsShalom Stilllearning,
I see the point you made in the first paragraph. Indeed we only know little. However, this does not sanction any sort of predisposition towards a virgin birth. Since naturally it happens naturally, its ok to assume it happened naturally unless there is any super natural that is specified by God Himself.
About the POINT OF CONVERSATION
God felt it necessary to let her know from beforehand for whatever strategic purpose He had in his mind. Informing anyone about the arrival of an important role is not that much redundant in nature. God knows the situation that Jesus was born into, so I simply view it as a strategic move.
Dont get me wrong, nothing that I say blows "virgin birth" out of the water.
However, the human mind is often slave to superstition. The problem we have with studying this character is "contamination of suggestions". Either you grew up knowing about the VIRGIN BIRTH or you are familiar with the concept in some other way. The question I ask myself is , "would I have thought about it in this way if I never heard of virgin birth ?" Everytime we speak of Jesus, I picture this man with long hairs and white robe and what not..... these AFFECT my understanding of him when I read the scriptures. I have been brainwashed with ideas ( Now I feel sad
Peace
------------ Student of Allah -
Shalom Stilllearning,
AOA Student of Allah
I see the point you made in the first paragraph. Indeed we only know little. However, this does not sanction any sort of predisposition towards a virgin birth. Since naturally it happens naturally, its ok to assume it happened naturally unless there is any super natural that is specified by God Himself.
My point was simply to illustrate that, reproductively speaking, virgin birth may not be a supernatural miracle everyone presumes it to be.
About the POINT OF CONVERSATION
God felt it necessary to let her know from beforehand for whatever strategic purpose He had in his mind. Informing anyone about the arrival of an important role is not that much redundant in nature. God knows the situation that Jesus was born into, so I simply view it as a strategic move.
It is plausible but did it really serve any strategic purpose. I mean would Jesus/Isa or an other would have behaved any differently if Mary had not been forewarned. Also is there any evidence that this forewarning had profound effecct on Jesus's work or teaching etc. Just some questions to ponder.
Dont get me wrong, nothing that I say blows "virgin birth" out of the water.[/quote
I appreciate your point & neither I am trying to prove the concept of accepted wisdom. Like you I am trying to make sense of a very difficult (for me at least) concept.
However, the human mind is often slave to superstition. The problem we have with studying this character is "contamination of suggestions". Either you grew up knowing about the VIRGIN BIRTH or you are familiar with the concept in some other way. The question I ask myself is , "would I have thought about it in this way if I never heard of virgin birth ?" . I have been brainwashed with ideas
Unfortunately we all are (varying degrees) slaves to our own superstitions.
Everytime we speak of Jesus, I picture this man with long hairs and white robe and what not..... these AFFECT my understanding of him when I read the scriptures Now I feel sad
Are you seriously suggesting that long white hair & white robe bit is not true. Well you are completely wrong because I have seen the photos and the DVD and he did have these characters. Phew! you almost made me very sad '(
Regards
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AOA Student of Allah
My point was simply to illustrate that, reproductively speaking, virgin birth may not be a supernatural miracle everyone presumes it to be.
It is plausible but did it really serve any strategic purpose. I mean would Jesus/Isa or an other would have behaved any differently if Mary had not been forewarned. Also is there any evidence that this forewarning had profound effecct on Jesus's work or teaching etc. Just some questions to ponder.
I appreciate your point & neither I am trying to prove the concept of accepted wisdom. Like you I am trying to make sense of a very difficult (for me at least) concept.
Unfortunately we all are (varying degrees) slaves to our own superstitions.
Are you seriously suggesting that long white hair & white robe bit is not true. Well you are completely wrong because I have seen the photos and the DVD and he did have these characters. Phew! you almost made me very sad '(
Regards
Shalom Aleikhom,
The highlighted red part reminds me of the time I came to know that there is no Santa clause.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you on
Unfortunately we all are (varying degrees) slaves to our own superstitions.
The day you feel like you reached a stable conclusion about Jesus and his mommy , please let me know. )
Peace handshake
------------------------------ Student of Allah -
AOA
The highlighted red part reminds me of the time I came to know that there is no Santa clause.
You are seriously trying to upset me otherwise why would you say these wicked things. I mean we sleep with our doors locked, alarm on but chimneys left unblocked & if what you said was true we would not have presents on the 25th. Yet our room (where the chimney is) was full of presents. Try to explain that then
Regards -
AOA
You are seriously trying to upset me otherwise why would you say these wicked things. I mean we sleep with our doors locked, alarm on but chimneys left unblocked & if what you said was true we would not have presents on the 25th. Yet our room (where the chimney is) was full of presents. Try to explain that then
RegardsShalom,
The only rational explanation is "Immaculate conception of Gifts", it just materializes in an instant. Who knows, someone once told me that test tube babies were a miracle back in 1979, cloning was a miracle, we are in jan 2012, we know little, may be in future, "immaculate conception of gifts" by your room wont be miracle, it will be THE SCIENTIFIC thing. p
Peace
----------- Student of Allah -
AOA
On a serious note (not that I was not upset you trying to suggest non existance of santa). It is a normal presumption that all conceptions, human at least, are the result of fertilsation of a female egg by a male sperm. However it is possible that cloning could occur naturally, though extremely unlikely. From what we understand of cloning. An egg can be fertilised without a sperm.
Up to now it has been assumed that all, human, pregnancies are the result of sperm & egg meeting. This may be true for the trillions of pregnancies to date but how do we know that tiny, perhaps even just one, number were not purely from a mechanism similar to cloning.
My point is that no natural, or you wish call it God's made law, have to be broken.
Are miracles, for many, not simply occurances which are extremely rare but not impossible. I hope this makes some sense
regards -
welcome salaaman
what's the reason that you always used to wish
shalom.Shalom Aleikhom,
since I am the only one in this thread saying "SHALOM", i take it that you are addressing me with that question.
Let me quote the greetings from some of the previous posts
Shalom Aleikhom,
Reply no. 3 (this thread)
Salamun Alaikum,
Reply no. 5 (this thread)
Salam,
So, even in this thread, I used Shalom,Salam,Salamun Alaikum and PEACE(at the end of all messages).
I use it because I like to use it. Its just a sister language and any muslim can recognize it immediately. The only problem they might have is the fact that normally "jews" use this tongue. If they have a problem with the jewish tongue, to me it shows that they would have a problem with all the jewish messengers/prophets(because they wont be speaking arabic/english). So on a personal level I don't care about such people's opinions.
A simpler answer is that you will see non-Arabs greeting non-Arabs saying "Salam". No God asked them to greet in ARABIC, yet they do. They are more in number compared to people like me who greet saying SHALOM. One should question these non-Arabs first . )
Peace,Salam,Shalom
----------------------- Student of Allah