RIBA
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Greetings and Peace, all group
I see insurance as no more a demonstration in lack of trust in ALLAH than I see in wearing seatbelts or sunscreen. In all cases, there is not complete security. If there is flood/nuclear catastrophe/war/riot/etc, the insurance won't cover home loss. When a home is insured at replacement value, it is hardly "winning the lottery" if the policy is collected. People die every day while wearing seatbelts, and sunscreen is not a guarantee against contracting skin cancer. Only with ALLAH is complete security.
There is an old joke about a man trapped by a flood who refuses rescue in three boats, and later a helicopter. His reasoning is that ALLAH will take care of him. So, the man drowns. The man asks ALLAH why didn't You take care of me? ALLAH replies, I sent you three boats and a helicopter.
The same applies to protective equipment and protective measures. Regarding protective measures such as insurance...who is it that promises poverty, again? hmm
2268 The devil promises you poverty and orders you to immorality, while GOD promises forgiveness from Him and grace. GOD is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
There is nothing noble about unnecessary poverty/suffering/hardship.
3130 O you who believe, do not consume usury, compounding over and over; and reverence GOD that you may succeed.
It looks like compound interest is forbidden. Can anyone show that simple interest is disallowed? The meaning of usury is what is disputed. To some it means ANY interest. To others is means ONLY compound interest. To others it means ONLY interest beyond what can be afforded. Perhaps to other people it means even different things! We must each follow our understanding the best way possible.
429 O you who believe, do not consume your money between you unjustly, unless it is through a trade which is mutually agreed by you. And do not kill yourselves; God is Merciful towards you.
Please note the "unless" statement. In 2275 we are shown that trade is not usury...but in 429 we are shown that an unjust trade is okay if by mutual consent. It is trade if person A wants to buy a house costing $100,000 and person B agrees to sell it to them for $300,000...even if the $300,000 is paid out each month over 30 years. This is one reason why I don't believe that interest is automatically usury.
2275 Those who consume usury do not rise except as one being influenced by the touch of the devil. That is because they have said "Trade is the same as usury." While GOD has made trade lawful, and He has made usury unlawful. Whoever has received understanding from His Lord and ceases, then he will be forgiven for what was before this and his case will be with GOD. But whoever returns, then they are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide.
From a literal standpoint, it is the consuming of usury that is forbidden. On the other hand, is it not approaching evil to support something forbidden? If prostitution is illegal, is it then okay to purchase the services of a prostitute? hmm
Also, if the person getting a usurious loan doesn't pay as the contract dictates, they are not honoring their contract--and that is a definite no-no.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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From a literal standpoint, it is the consuming of usury that is forbidden. On the other hand, is it not approaching evil to support something forbidden? If prostitution is illegal, is it then okay to purchase the services of a prostitute? hmm
Also, if the person getting a usurious loan doesn't pay as the contract dictates, they are not honoring their contract--and that is a definite no-no.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
I agree with you there on paying the loan, otherwise that is theft in my opinion. One who gets loan in the form of a credit card or whatever and doesn't pay it would then be a thief in my opinion. Though i'm not sure on how to feel the interest portion. If doesn't pay the portion that has interest, is it still considered theft as that is beyond what you borrowed? or because its a contract deal it would then be theft?
Anyways no one supports much of the evils in this world. We don't support governments and yet we have to vote for one of two parties even though they do evil.
Prostitution though has more laws then simply being "it is illegal". The usual laws include both ends with one being you can't approach the person to buy sex from them, and neither can offer sex for money. So both ends are usually covered I believe.
Regardless to each his own )
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Salam...
I have an 'unorthodox' understanding on Riba..
To me Riba is not about 'interest' and/or 'risk on future events'.
Riba is about unfairness of Terms and Conditions.
During late antiquities and medieval age, Loan with Interests are being used to put people into 'slavery'.
Usually the poor put either himself and/or his wife or children as 'collateral' for the loan.
Upon debt repayment failure, the creditor might seize himself or his wife or children as 'his own property', as thus put them into slavery for their entire life and also their future progeny as well.It is the loan terms and conditions upon the 'failure of loan payback' which should be judged whether it's a 'riba' or not.
That's why 'charity' is much better than 'riba'.Example
If the 'loan with interest' carries no collateral at all, as such when the debtor failed to repay his/her loan and declare bankruptcy.. the creditor cannot enforce any asset taking and need to write off / waived the (bad) debts.
I would say this is not a RIBA... yet a charity..
This scheme is actually an 'investment' scheme, where both parties carries the risk..In case of mortgage, it's the property which is being as collateral for the loan..
And then we need to do a deep dive on it's terms and conditions..Let say the mortgage last for 5 years. And the total sum to be repaid within 5 years is $100 (including profits to the creditor in whatever format or mechanism.. )
If the debtor paid his mortgage regularly until the end of year 4, yet declare his/her inability to repay the remaining 20 what would happened?If the creditor confiscate the property and return the $80 on paid mortgage, I would say that this is fair..
If the creditor grant a loan rescheduling where both parties agreed that this is acceptable.. It's even better.
If the creditor waived the remaining $20 and considered the loan to be fully repaid. it's much even better..If the creditor confiscate the property and also the debtor and his family as his own asset (read the debtor and his family became the debtor's property a.k.a slave for the rest of his life and his future generation).. this is bad....
Even when the creditor doesn't apply interest on the loan or subsidize the loan.. if the T&C is similar to the above then it's bad...Salam / Peace
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Peace.
Read 2261-281.
It talks (for the hundredth time) about the importance of helping the less fortunate; charity. And the different ways in which this can happen (1) positive and (2) negative.
(1) Only to please the god or (2) to be seen by others.
(1a) Openly or (1b) secretly. And what is best.Then it mentions another way to help the needy; loans. And the different ways in which this can happen (1) positive and (2) negative.
(1) interest-free with respite for any defaulters, even forgive the remaining debt (as charity). (2) to see loans as a trade and charge (high) interests.
(1) is encouraged, and (2) not only condemned but forbidden.So far my explanation.
Now you may draw up a list of all the possible bad implications of such a loan, and I will totally agree with you. And I can only deduce that that is the reason why providing such loans is forbidden. But nowhere do I read that the borrower who enters into such a loan is being condemned. But it still remains that it can be dangerous. Don't expect deferment nor charity; only additional costs when you default, or even recoveries and seizures. All the more reason to be careful.
Analogy
Big companies exploit the peoples of third world countries by "forcing" them to sell their land for a miserable price. A law is made that sets a minimum price per square feet. When a poor man sells his land under that price, for whatever reason (he wants to emigrate, a bigger house or simply buy food for his family etc.) will he then be convicted? NOT if you understand that that law was made to PROTECT their interests.Read 2261-281 and it will be clear that usury is forbidden to protect the poor from the sharks. And nowhere are the borrowers condemned, but the god condemns those who consume usury and he does not love the wicked sinners.
Abdelilah
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Now you may draw up a list of all the possible bad implications of such a loan, and I will totally agree with you. And I can only deduce that that is the reason why providing such loans is forbidden. But nowhere do I read that the borrower who enters into such a loan is being condemned. But it still remains that it can be dangerous. Don't expect deferment nor charity; only additional costs when you default, or even recoveries and seizures. All the more reason to be careful.
Again it's not about "Interests".. but it's about 'fairness' of the deal..
Loan even WITHOUT interest but crappy Terms & Conditions might result in unfairness (Zalim)Don't make gain from the unfortunate.. don't add more misery to their misery..
Be fair (Arabic Adl) in ANY dealings with other human beings.If the loan had an interest yet with fair T&C it's not a Riba.
If the loan doesn't have any interest yet crappy T&C it is a Riba.The current so-called 'islamic bank' doesn't charge profit through 'interest' yet their 'cost of fund' is actually MUCH HIGHER than the loan with interest. And their T&C is pretty much the same.
Yet they use 'religion' as marketing tools for their product by saying that their loan scheme is 'halal' albeit higher cost of fund while their competitor's product is 'haram' (due to interest) albeit it has lower cost of fund.
Salam / Peace
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Salaam,
Riba is not open to debate it is a clearly defined concept, you so called Muslims refuse to accept what Riba is as it means you are standing against your Creator in most of your daily lives, this means you attempt to pervert the meaning of Riba to hide this fact from yourselves.
Riba is defined simply as ?usury? in Lanes lexicon.
Usury is taken from the Latin sra meaning ?using?
(p 1119 Blacks Law Dictionary) Usury is a certain benefit which is received for the use of the thing lent, and is not lawful
This means the explanation of Riba, which is based upon the above definition, I have given in a previous thread is the only valid understanding of Riba, hide the truth all you like Riba is Riba.
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I agree fully with Jafar.
We seem to be forgetting that Allah says very clearly in the same aayah in which he forbids riba, that business is not forbidden!
If someone lends me money so I can afford to get a roof over my head, and in return he agrees with me that I pay him interest - and he even checks that I can afford it (and does not force me to sign on the dotted line) - both of us are gaining! It's a deal! It's business! Contracted business written, agreed and signed by both parties!!What is forbidden is "al-riba"; and this is explained in the Qur'an. If we wrongfully/unfairly consume someone else's possessions, then that is al-riba. So for example if someone lends money to someone with the intention to rip them off, and possibly even possess their property - that is al-riba. Theft is al-riba. Taking bribes is al-riba. Being a lying agent is al-riba.
Business is not al-riba.
I implore brothers and sisters to think of this... in so called islamic countries such as Pakistan, India etc - they are drowning in al-riba through crime, bribery etc, yet they make the point that interest on a mortgage or a current account is forbidden!!! Where are we???!?!
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Salam...
I have an 'unorthodox' understanding on Riba..
To me Riba is not about 'interest' and/or 'risk on future events'.
Riba is about unfairness of Terms and Conditions.
During late antiquities and medieval age, Loan with Interests are being used to put people into 'slavery'.
Usually the poor put either himself and/or his wife or children as 'collateral' for the loan.
Upon debt repayment failure, the creditor might seize himself or his wife or children as 'his own property', as thus put them into slavery for their entire life and also their future progeny as well.It is the loan terms and conditions upon the 'failure of loan payback' which should be judged whether it's a 'riba' or not.
That's why 'charity' is much better than 'riba'.Example
If the 'loan with interest' carries no collateral at all, as such when the debtor failed to repay his/her loan and declare bankruptcy.. the creditor cannot enforce any asset taking and need to write off / waived the (bad) debts.
I would say this is not a RIBA... yet a charity..
This scheme is actually an 'investment' scheme, where both parties carries the risk..In case of mortgage, it's the property which is being as collateral for the loan..
And then we need to do a deep dive on it's terms and conditions..Let say the mortgage last for 5 years. And the total sum to be repaid within 5 years is $100 (including profits to the creditor in whatever format or mechanism.. )
If the debtor paid his mortgage regularly until the end of year 4, yet declare his/her inability to repay the remaining 20 what would happened?If the creditor confiscate the property and return the $80 on paid mortgage, I would say that this is fair..
If the creditor grant a loan rescheduling where both parties agreed that this is acceptable.. It's even better.
If the creditor waived the remaining $20 and considered the loan to be fully repaid. it's much even better..If the creditor confiscate the property and also the debtor and his family as his own asset (read the debtor and his family became the debtor's property a.k.a slave for the rest of his life and his future generation).. this is bad....H
Even when the creditor doesn't apply interest on the loan or subsidize the loan.. if the T&C is similar to the above then it's bad...Salam / Peaceo
You dont have an unorthodox interpretation of riba you have an UNISLAMIC understanding of just not riba but islam as a whole. Prior to this you called for an end of sunnah, now you call riba for halal and next time you would jump out as a gay atheist claiming that homosexuals are true Muslims which would apparently result in you creating an organization called ' atheist Muslims for gays' and akeed you would be the president of that organization...
Frankly speaking jafar - from muslim to kafir that must be a big jump for you bas koon insan o irja3 ela ahlul sunna We al jama3 before its too late. I don't want to see you in hell
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Frankly speaking mr. Sunah Hero, idolater of Bukhari, if you come here to be Rude theres many sites on the web for your equal type of "understandment".. so being rude with a brother Muslim is the best attitude to prove youre prespectives?
im not only defending brother Jafar, im defending moral values, im defending Islam ...witch is something you showed you dont have..so are you a Muslim?yes?really? no? i dont belive it... rotfl
but ill pr for OUR englightment peace
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I agree fully with Jafar.
We seem to be forgetting that Allah says very clearly in the same aayah in which he forbids riba, that business is not forbidden!
If someone lends me money so I can afford to get a roof over my head, and in return he agrees with me that I pay him interest - and he even checks that I can afford it (and does not force me to sign on the dotted line) - both of us are gaining! It's a deal! It's business! Contracted business written, agreed and signed by both parties!!What is forbidden is "al-riba"; and this is explained in the Qur'an. If we wrongfully/unfairly consume someone else's possessions, then that is al-riba. So for example if someone lends money to someone with the intention to rip them off, and possibly even possess their property - that is al-riba. Theft is al-riba. Taking bribes is al-riba. Being a lying agent is al-riba.
Business is not al-riba.
I implore brothers and sisters to think of this... in so called islamic countries such as Pakistan, India etc - they are drowning in al-riba through crime, bribery etc, yet they make the point that interest on a mortgage or a current account is forbidden!!! Where are we???!?!
Fully agree...
In essence "RIBA" is "Unfair Dealings"..
Making a profit / benefits from other people misery.. and/or
Making a profit / benefits by adding more misery to other people misery..
God curses those who makes profit / benefits from the suffering of others..RIBA is NOT about interest..
How is it very hard to grasp this very simple concept???As for the so called 'islamic mortgage'...
Educate the people that they should get the mortgage with- Most favorable terms and conditions to them.
- Lowest cost of fund. interest or without interest
Hence the name...
Mortgage A and Mortgage B has identical T&C.
For $100 property, Mortgage A with 'islam' brand ask you to repay in total $140 in five years.
For $100 property, Mortgage B with 'interest' of 0.5% a year ask you to repay in total $102.5 in five years.
Definitely choose Mortgage B!!Salam / Peace
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Salaam,
it is no wonder Islam has vanished from the world, self professing Muslim hide from clear reality, indulging in conjecture to hide from the truth of their actions, it is clear why the Qur'an is defined by hadith instead of lexicons of ancient Arabic as I see the re-invention of definitions to corrupt understandings as a constant theme.
I'll waste no more time.
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it is no wonder Islam has vanished from the world,
The statement makes no sense at all..
How could a trait / a character vanished from the world where human beings are still there???The statement of
"Honesty has vanished from the world"
Might be true in hyperbolic allegorical sense.. but in literal sense no.. there are honest people living in the world today.. the same as 'those who are at peace and submit to God's will'.Salam / Peace
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Based on the Quran alone, ribaa cannot be translated as "interest". If one believes in Hadith, then it most definitely cannot be translated as "interest" because Hadith use the term in the context of like-for-like sales transactions, and not loans.
When the Quran refers to ribaa, it does so with respect to a very specific circumstance, namely, a loan made to a poor person, who, at the maturity of that loan, is unable to repay the full principal. According to the Quran, what the lender chooses to do at this point in time (and not at the beginning of the loan) determines whether his/her actions are riba'a. Therefore, the concept of ribaa is not associated with the actual issuance of the loan, just what action a lender takes at the loan's maturity and the borrower cannot repay in full. Understanding that the Quran confines the concept of ribaa to this very specific scenario is crucial.
In one case, the Quran condemns the practice of "doubling upon doubling". The Quran warns that the lender should not do anything which will worsen the borrower's poverty and drive them further into debt such that they cannot come out. Based on this, the Quran is condemning any exploitative action which will take advantage of the borrower's weakness and drive him/her further into poverty. Default penalties (such as compounding interest levied on certain mortgage products in case of missed payments) is an example of something which can drive someone further and further into debt. Note that the lender is even encouraged to forgive the loan as sadqah - clearly, the lender is dealing with a poor person only.
The fact that Muslims continue to assert that ribaa is interest and thus endorse these form-over-substance sharia lending products is evidence as to how the actual wording of the Quran is continuously ignored. As the Quran states, Muslims will treat the Quran as a "discarded thing".
If one believes in the Hadith, ribaa is mentioned in the context of buy/sell transactions in 6 staple products (gold, silver, wheat, barley, salt and dates). As a buy/sell transaction is not a loan, taking to ribaa to mean 'interest' renders these Hadith nonsensical. In these Hadith, the Holy Prophet condemns Bilal's having exchanged inferior quality dates for a smaller amount of superior quality dates on a "like-for-like" basis calling it ribaa and telling him never to do it again. He should have exchanged the inferior dates for cash first, and then used the cash for purchasing the superior dates. As to the meaning of this Hadith, the theory is that, unless such goods are exchanged for cash first and then purchased, exchanging "like-for'like" leaves open the possibility of exploitation or unfairness which could not be tolerated at least for these 6 staple products. For example, a poor family with many mouths to feed may be willing to give up superior quality dates for a larger amount of inferior dates just so more mouths can be fed - the other party knowing of the desperation may thus negotiate in bad faith if the deal is done "like-for-like". Exchanging first in cash and then using that cash to buy the inferior dates is thus presumably the only way to ensure market fairness.
While I am not a big believer in Hadith, I merely point it out for those who do follow the Hadith and perhaps might find value in that aspect of the discussion.
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AOA
Good to see this topic has elicited considerable intelligent discussion
In essence "RIBA" is "Unfair Dealings"..
Making a profit / benefits from other people misery.. and/orExactly. It is as you have stated
RIBA is NOT about interest..
How is it very hard to grasp this very simple concept???You would think it would be very simple but unfortunately it is exactly the opposite.
If you as Bank or another institution lend me X amount and I use this to set up a business and make y amount of profit and fraction of the profit to pay back the initial loan & interest. Who has been harmed? Both you and I have benefitedAs for the so called 'islamic mortgage'...
Unfortunately the so called Islamic mortgage is nothing more than a fraud. I actually pointed this out to the representative of one of these institutions at a large Muslim gathering. It is my opinion that so called Islamic Mortggage is actually Riba, in that they are taking ungair advantage of individuals who do not understand what Riba is.
Educate the people that they should get the mortgage with
- Most favorable terms and conditions to them.
- Lowest cost of fund. interest or without interest
Hence the name...
Mortgage A and Mortgage B has identical T&C.
For $100 property, Mortgage A with 'islam' brand ask you to repay in total $140 in five years.
For $100 property, Mortgage B with 'interest' of 0.5% a year ask you to repay in total $102.5 in five years.
Definitely choose Mortgage B!!Agreed
The fact that Muslims continue to assert that ribaa is interest and thus endorse these form-over-substance sharia lending products is evidence as to how the actual wording of the Quran is continuously ignored. As the Quran states, Muslims will treat the Quran as a "discarded thing".
Well summarised.
I'll waste no more time.
& then
Islam is a social environment
.Regards