Coping without Salat

Cow

Peace Cow,

The problem I see with accepting that we get our format of salat from Abraham is that it requires applying a double standard.

How can we insist that the example of Muhammad be taken from within the Quran, yet allow the example of Abraham to be taken from outside the Quran?

Imraan

Salam Imran -
i am not sure i understand your thoughts
how is the example of abraham be taken from outside the Quran? -

could is be when i wrote " from history salat has been known to involve bowing and prstrating" - Well my reasning is that, apart from history , it is also in the Quran.

For me the religion/practices of Muhammed is as the Religion and Practice of Abraham - One God, Salat, Zakat - all being the central theme. Abraham is the same to me as Muhammed as the same as Jesus, as the same as Solomon as is Moses etc.

Maybe i am off mark but see 2278

For me - the prayer Salat - ( in this sense i mean with genuflection) is the same = from the time of Abraham right down to Mohammed.

see 2125 and see 2226.

Dawn - the above verses( to me) imply that abraham did bow and prostrate -

alaykum salam

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Dawn and Cow,

What I am saying is that if we are saying that the format of our salat is seen as a certain number of rakats involving a certain number of bowings, prostrations, etc. and if this is based on the example of Abraham, we should apply the same standard regarding Abraham as we do regarding Muhammad. That is, if we cannot accept those things outside of Quran as being truth without doubt regarding Muhammad, why should we do so regarding Abraham.

Cow, it makes no difference whether we view Muhammad, Abraham, etc. as the same. Once we apply different standards we apply a double standard. I'm aware of 2278, but the same principal applies.

Imraan

dawngorgeous

Peace All,
I think we should try to answer Cow's questions about reconciling certain action around the possible meaning of salat. Things such as ablution, prayer times etc.
Apart from that, I took time out to read Aidid Safar and was impressed. His definition of salat makes more sense full stop. I guess you all probably already know it, Mental Bondage in the name of God. I am now hoping to find a copy of his translation of the Koran.
Dawn

Kaiokenred

I think Aidid Safar explained ablution. As for prayer times, it doesn't say do it in the morning and the night or things like that, but from the morning till the night. In Aidid Safar's translations this would be like " Be committed from morning to night "

Anyway, the fact stays that the Quran that is translated nowadays isn't the original one and there's many changes, so reason and common sense must be used.

Cow

Peace Dawn and Cow,

What I am saying is that if we are saying that the format of our salat is seen as a certain number of rakats involving a certain number of bowings, prostrations, etc. and if this is based on the example of Abraham, we should apply the same standard regarding Abraham as we do regarding Muhammad. That is, if we cannot accept those things outside of Quran as being truth without doubt regarding Muhammad, why should we do so regarding Abraham.

Cow, it makes no difference whether we view Muhammad, Abraham, etc. as the same. Once we apply different standards we apply a double standard. I'm aware of 2278, but the same principal applies.

Imraan

salam All,
just yesterday i happened upon 2172-73 in relation to abraham -

Wawahabna lahu ishaqa wayaAAqooba nafilatan wakullan jaAAalna saliheena
And We bestowed on him Ishaq and Yaqub (in) addition, and all We made righteous

WajaAAalnahum aimmatan yahdoona biamrina waawhayna ilayhim fiAAla alkhayrati waiqama alssalati waeetaa alzzakati wakanoo lana AAabideena

And We made them leaders, they guide by Our Command. And We inspired to them (the) doing (of) good deeds,
and establishment (of) the prayer and giving (of) zakah; and they were of Us worshippers.

For me and my limited understanding - this says to me the establishment of prayer - was a practice of/from abraham, ishaq, yaqub -

is it an assembly(meeting or gathering of people for discussion or the meeting between god and us in when we ponder/meditate/read/discuss the quran) per say? intrestingly - part of the salat i know is to recite Gods words - The Quran recitation is very much part of salat - it is from where we get words to glorify the Most Gracious - so many verses dotted through with magnificient and eloquent praises of God to use during salat.

in the Quran in the time of moses it is noted 19 51-60 - by my limited understanding - after moses, the people lost the salat - ( this is what we are paying for in our generation and the next generation will probably have it much worse)

for me salat is the same from abraham down to moses - moses most notably was given the furqan&taorat as sources of guidance for us all.
i would hazard a guess that instructions on salat are/were in there.
moses lineage - the jewish prophets take on prayer( if i am allowed to say that for want of simplifying things) involved bowing and prostration as a form of prayer to Yaweh - God. this i think is noted in old testament -

at no time is the frequency of rakah mentioned - that i can find myself in old testament or in the Quran - so for me it is a new concept.

nevertheless, i hazard a guess that being bound to frequency as the case of rakah is an innovation or rather a tool to enable people prayer together at the same time with uniformity. But it is not in the Quran. - (that i know of that is) - as opposed to i.e fasting whose frequency is noted in terms of when/which month to do it ( ramadan)and the duration( for want of simplification - dawn till dusk) - how to do it( for want of simplification - abstain from eating/drinking/sexual conduct/vice)

notwithstanding - my feelings based on limited my understanding is that salat involves bowing and prostrating and not an assembly(discussion of people)
the Quran is precise for me in that as frequency is not mentioned i.e rakah - it is not important - the word of God is complete.
what is - are the timings for which God has left us directives when to perform salat, what to say during salat, and the purpose of salat.

maybe its a new age interpretation for newage people to say salat is an assembly(discussion of people not involving bowing/prostrating) surely all the past generations cannot be wrong on the bowing and prostrating ( but then again maybe they could be)
The word of God and directives of God cannot change - its intent does not change with each passing generation - we have to look back to our roots and try to find the truth of the Creator to help us in this life today.

salat whichever way one sees it is one of the links to redeem ourselves - assemble, bow or prostrate - as long as it is devoted to God alone
then my final note is " who gives a monkey" - afterall we are all racing to righteousness - God is the judge of us all - He knows the truth, whatever we are doing to try to serve him - we will be held individually accountable for it.

ps translated Quran is not the Quran( aidid safar's; yusuf ali's; khalifa's ; reformist's or even me if i attempt to translate the Quran) - the Quran is arabic - each translator has flaws of explanation/interpretation - based on their limited knowledge ( no matter how they claim they know what it is trying to impart - they dont know it all and they make mistakes based on their combo of life experience, wishful thinking, lack of knowledge, lack of true understanding, inherited thoughts and practices) The Quran is an arabic Quran - that for me is flawless - it is for each of us to try to find the best way to understand - wether it is by taking so many translations compare and contrast - with Gods guidance - the best explanation is then revealed to the indiviaual. involves constant reading, reflecting and patience (i guess however long it takes)

alaykum salam

pps apologies for any typo errors - which probably there are

Kaiokenred