Coping without Salat

Kaiokenred

Have you ever meditated?

Did you meditate when you were 14? And yes I tried to meditate but nothing happened.

Student_of_Allah

Did you meditate when you were 14? And yes I tried to meditate but nothing happened.

Shalom Aleikhom,

Same here, meditation does absolutely nothing to me. What does something for me is to be alone for a while (like a day or something). I try to think about everything that I know, question myself, think deeper, do some thought experiments, argue back and forth with myself. All that combined with my study of the universe (everything that I study) actually helps me be a better person. For me, being alone for a while does the trick, otherwise, at the presence of other people, its extremely difficult to think without their influence affecting the final result.

Meditation may work for some, but not for me.

Probably, what I do is another form of meditation, afterall the rules for meditating did not come down from above and is not engraved on stones.

Peace
-------------- Student of Allah

Cow

salam alaykum,

i find it hard to accept salat as an assembly - May God guide us

Salat is one of the tennents to worshipping God - reason i say this is that throughout the Quran the theme ( so to say is always) Iman - Belief, Salat - Ptayer and Zakat - Charity.
these are the three most prominent instructions for us looking to attain righteousness with God.

salat is one which is passed down from abraham - he was asked to perform salat - going by translation, as was moses, as was solomon, as was JEsus as was Mohammed.

Belief in God as always been about God - going by the first commandments given to moses - worshipping God alone

i start with moses because we do not have the teachings of Abraham in any format to companr it with.
Salat is about contact with God - remembering God, praise God etc to starve away evil deeds and to strenghten out hearts
Zakat is about giving back -

it is interesting that early jews do bow and prostrate - based on what i have read from this post - some still do - but it makes sence to me that bowing and prostrating is a central theme in salat.
bowing is a sign of subservience to God - bowing before the one who created you.

if salat is an assembly - what is the role of ablution? wash your face, arms to elbow etc - i read the issue of the knees to the ankle? but salat involves purification - this is the precoursor to begining it - the intention more like.

the timings of salat are given in the Quran - 3 is all i can find myself ( though i practice 5 at present till it becomes clearr to me)- based on what i read and what i accept - some say its 5 and some say its 2 - basically who cares - afterall its God that we are directing salat to - God knows afterall who is best guided on his path and who is devoting the salat to him.

but really it is intersting if salat is an assemble - and going by the erson who started this thread of salat/assemble - how does one perform the assemble - he has indicated salat wusta as the most important assembly - out of how many other asselblies?

what do we then make of the verses 2458 - will is still be an assembly for dawn(fajr) assembly and night/evening(isha) assembly?

Occams razor - Everything is in the Scripture - it just requires God to open our eyes to the best understanding for us. Worshipping God alone is the most important trait devoting all to God and God alone. Uniformity in practices i dont think is too much a big deal as we each have to race towards righteousness - it is the soul trying to connect with its creator - Worry about your own neck and leave the rest to God.when anyone starts giving complicated roundbaout, twisted explanations to something - that should be so clear and simple - then there is something wrong somewhere - worshipping God is easy - Man just wants something complicated - he cannot fathom the ease at which God has given us directives to worship Him - so he makes it complicated by adding and compounding and making more difficult to understand for some - "Man says in order to understand God words you have to be an intellectual with a PHD or whatever to understand the many spins that man himself has put on it" but really worshipping god is easy - JUST WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS - BELIEVE IN GOD - and TRUST IN GOD ALONE - SURELY WITH THAT YOU CANNOT FAIL.

Kaiokenred

Assembly isn't the only definition besides prayer.

dawngorgeous

Peace Cow (I feel awful calling you this eventhough it's your name. Where I come from it's rude to call someone this),

It is so refreshing to find someone actually understands my point exactly and is willing to debate in a constructive, intelligent manner.
And your questions are mine too. Were Salat to mean assembly what would it look like if we were to "establish" the assembly however many times per day. And who would be leading it? The idea of salat meaning assembly does appeal to me and does make sense as a concept, but surely this would change the face of what we know as prayer completely. It seems it would involve groups of us meeting, perhaps having a specific topic/problem to consider. We would all turn up clear-headed, knowing that this salat has been planned in advance (so we wouldn't have gone out drinking alcohol). There would be some folk present, who are very knowledgeable about the Koran and we would all speak in lowered tones to be respectful to each other. Of course, we would have all done wudu as stated in the Koran.
This is all perfectly good to me, but would we be having these meetings/assemblies 2,3 or 5 times a day? Or does establish simply mean that we know that when our society has a problem there is an established forum with which to deal with it and a specific lawbook sanctioned by God?
I am rambling, but my rambles contain the core of my rumintions.
Peace,
Dawn.

Cow

salam dawn,
like i said - (however awful my coordination of typing/speaking was)
i dont think salat is an assembly - "as in metting/gathering of people to discuss society problems/issues"
the themes of prostrating and bowing - ruku and sujud are to strong to ignore.

An assembly for me rekindles images of a meeting - where people fo to sort out issues or talk about issues - where is the remembering God there... i guess all depends on the translation and context in which they are used.

yes salat is a meeting but i see it as a meeting to worship God - its is about remembering God and praising God.

i would not fathom to think that so many people have been doing the wrong thing( if there is such a thing as wrong - its all a matter of interpretation) all these years..

for me - Salat is contact - it is worship - to and for our creator - this is trying to find a common link btwn all abrahamic religions - starting from judaism>>christainity>>Islam - the central theme to these - after reading some torah, gospel and Quran is that Salat is enjoined on us all ( see surah 985 and 23).

and from history Salat has been known as worship that involves bowing and prostrating.

If salat were an assembly as in meeting - gathering of people them i would be asking myself

where would we hold such a meeting
how does one reconcile the issue of Qiblah (2142-145)
how does one incorporate the ruku and sujud - (243)
how do we reconcile Fajr and isha and wusta salat - what time range will we hold them
how long will this meeting last for (4103)
how will we reconcile the tone (17110 and 17111)
why do we need to purify ourselved before it - ablution - wash face/arms/wipe head/wipe feet

but then again another viewpoint is that - Salat could very well be translated as assembly - but the context of assembly is what needs to be clarified.For me i will agree that salat can be an assembly before the creator - whether in singular person or in group.
so by my reasoning - assembly, worship, contact - for me are all acceptable views of Salat - but noting that they will involve some form of genuflection, its main purpose is to remember God(worship God, call out to God, praise God)

Salam
PS dont worry about da cow bit -it is a nickname from yonkers ago.

For all Praise is Yours my Lord
All authority, Kingship and Glory
In this life and the hereafter
there is God other than thee
Be thou Glorified, Most Gracious Lord.

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Cow,

The problem I see with accepting that we get our format of salat from Abraham is that it requires applying a double standard.

How can we insist that the example of Muhammad be taken from within the Quran, yet allow the example of Abraham to be taken from outside the Quran?

Imraan

dawngorgeous

Peace Icelostnowfound,

So what Abraham did must be found in the Koran? Is that a possible solution?

Dawn.

Cow

Peace Cow,

The problem I see with accepting that we get our format of salat from Abraham is that it requires applying a double standard.

How can we insist that the example of Muhammad be taken from within the Quran, yet allow the example of Abraham to be taken from outside the Quran?

Imraan

Salam Imran -
i am not sure i understand your thoughts
how is the example of abraham be taken from outside the Quran? -

could is be when i wrote " from history salat has been known to involve bowing and prstrating" - Well my reasning is that, apart from history , it is also in the Quran.

For me the religion/practices of Muhammed is as the Religion and Practice of Abraham - One God, Salat, Zakat - all being the central theme. Abraham is the same to me as Muhammed as the same as Jesus, as the same as Solomon as is Moses etc.

Maybe i am off mark but see 2278

For me - the prayer Salat - ( in this sense i mean with genuflection) is the same = from the time of Abraham right down to Mohammed.

see 2125 and see 2226.

Dawn - the above verses( to me) imply that abraham did bow and prostrate -

alaykum salam

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Dawn and Cow,

What I am saying is that if we are saying that the format of our salat is seen as a certain number of rakats involving a certain number of bowings, prostrations, etc. and if this is based on the example of Abraham, we should apply the same standard regarding Abraham as we do regarding Muhammad. That is, if we cannot accept those things outside of Quran as being truth without doubt regarding Muhammad, why should we do so regarding Abraham.

Cow, it makes no difference whether we view Muhammad, Abraham, etc. as the same. Once we apply different standards we apply a double standard. I'm aware of 2278, but the same principal applies.

Imraan

dawngorgeous

Peace All,
I think we should try to answer Cow's questions about reconciling certain action around the possible meaning of salat. Things such as ablution, prayer times etc.
Apart from that, I took time out to read Aidid Safar and was impressed. His definition of salat makes more sense full stop. I guess you all probably already know it, Mental Bondage in the name of God. I am now hoping to find a copy of his translation of the Koran.
Dawn

Kaiokenred

I think Aidid Safar explained ablution. As for prayer times, it doesn't say do it in the morning and the night or things like that, but from the morning till the night. In Aidid Safar's translations this would be like " Be committed from morning to night "

Anyway, the fact stays that the Quran that is translated nowadays isn't the original one and there's many changes, so reason and common sense must be used.

Cow

Peace Dawn and Cow,

What I am saying is that if we are saying that the format of our salat is seen as a certain number of rakats involving a certain number of bowings, prostrations, etc. and if this is based on the example of Abraham, we should apply the same standard regarding Abraham as we do regarding Muhammad. That is, if we cannot accept those things outside of Quran as being truth without doubt regarding Muhammad, why should we do so regarding Abraham.

Cow, it makes no difference whether we view Muhammad, Abraham, etc. as the same. Once we apply different standards we apply a double standard. I'm aware of 2278, but the same principal applies.

Imraan

salam All,
just yesterday i happened upon 2172-73 in relation to abraham -

Wawahabna lahu ishaqa wayaAAqooba nafilatan wakullan jaAAalna saliheena
And We bestowed on him Ishaq and Yaqub (in) addition, and all We made righteous

WajaAAalnahum aimmatan yahdoona biamrina waawhayna ilayhim fiAAla alkhayrati waiqama alssalati waeetaa alzzakati wakanoo lana AAabideena

And We made them leaders, they guide by Our Command. And We inspired to them (the) doing (of) good deeds,
and establishment (of) the prayer and giving (of) zakah; and they were of Us worshippers.

For me and my limited understanding - this says to me the establishment of prayer - was a practice of/from abraham, ishaq, yaqub -

is it an assembly(meeting or gathering of people for discussion or the meeting between god and us in when we ponder/meditate/read/discuss the quran) per say? intrestingly - part of the salat i know is to recite Gods words - The Quran recitation is very much part of salat - it is from where we get words to glorify the Most Gracious - so many verses dotted through with magnificient and eloquent praises of God to use during salat.

in the Quran in the time of moses it is noted 19 51-60 - by my limited understanding - after moses, the people lost the salat - ( this is what we are paying for in our generation and the next generation will probably have it much worse)

for me salat is the same from abraham down to moses - moses most notably was given the furqan&taorat as sources of guidance for us all.
i would hazard a guess that instructions on salat are/were in there.
moses lineage - the jewish prophets take on prayer( if i am allowed to say that for want of simplifying things) involved bowing and prostration as a form of prayer to Yaweh - God. this i think is noted in old testament -

at no time is the frequency of rakah mentioned - that i can find myself in old testament or in the Quran - so for me it is a new concept.

nevertheless, i hazard a guess that being bound to frequency as the case of rakah is an innovation or rather a tool to enable people prayer together at the same time with uniformity. But it is not in the Quran. - (that i know of that is) - as opposed to i.e fasting whose frequency is noted in terms of when/which month to do it ( ramadan)and the duration( for want of simplification - dawn till dusk) - how to do it( for want of simplification - abstain from eating/drinking/sexual conduct/vice)

notwithstanding - my feelings based on limited my understanding is that salat involves bowing and prostrating and not an assembly(discussion of people)
the Quran is precise for me in that as frequency is not mentioned i.e rakah - it is not important - the word of God is complete.
what is - are the timings for which God has left us directives when to perform salat, what to say during salat, and the purpose of salat.

maybe its a new age interpretation for newage people to say salat is an assembly(discussion of people not involving bowing/prostrating) surely all the past generations cannot be wrong on the bowing and prostrating ( but then again maybe they could be)
The word of God and directives of God cannot change - its intent does not change with each passing generation - we have to look back to our roots and try to find the truth of the Creator to help us in this life today.

salat whichever way one sees it is one of the links to redeem ourselves - assemble, bow or prostrate - as long as it is devoted to God alone
then my final note is " who gives a monkey" - afterall we are all racing to righteousness - God is the judge of us all - He knows the truth, whatever we are doing to try to serve him - we will be held individually accountable for it.

ps translated Quran is not the Quran( aidid safar's; yusuf ali's; khalifa's ; reformist's or even me if i attempt to translate the Quran) - the Quran is arabic - each translator has flaws of explanation/interpretation - based on their limited knowledge ( no matter how they claim they know what it is trying to impart - they dont know it all and they make mistakes based on their combo of life experience, wishful thinking, lack of knowledge, lack of true understanding, inherited thoughts and practices) The Quran is an arabic Quran - that for me is flawless - it is for each of us to try to find the best way to understand - wether it is by taking so many translations compare and contrast - with Gods guidance - the best explanation is then revealed to the indiviaual. involves constant reading, reflecting and patience (i guess however long it takes)

alaykum salam

pps apologies for any typo errors - which probably there are

Kaiokenred