Transalation of proper names of AQ?
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Salaam sun
Read all chaprer 3 (AAl Imran ) then read 19 (MAryam)
Theres no prove that theres are 2 Isa and 2 MAryam.. thats what the ibiBLIST think...
its a shame to see self called Quransits giving so descartinh islam hadith and taking Catholic hadith to say AQ is Wrong &So for you theres only INGIL AND TAWRAT? what about ISa Upanishads? Its also a sacred religious text.. if you read AQ and like to compere to the Darkeness hadiths of the Bible you should read also and compere the Hindu texts
AQ is complete, detailed, simple, and Wordf God
The rest i dont trust, ive pessad more than 10 years in search for Bible Caracters.. what i found is a SALADAQ is complete, no need to be analized on the "light" tempt, of thge bible, thats too do the same as our Ancestors, and its not what AQ comand US
Salaam, have a nice week
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Salaam sun
Read all chaprer 3 (AAl Imran ) then read 19 (MAryam)
I have. Many times.
Theres no prove that theres are 2 Isa and 2 MAryam.. thats what the ibiBLIST think...
its a shame to see self called Quransits giving so descartinh islam hadith and taking Catholic hadith to say AQ is Wrong &There is one Isa al Masih, there are TWO Miriams. One is the sister of Moses, the other is the mother of Jesus. I never said Quran is wrong. On the contrary, I am upholding it by insisting that there be no distinction between messengers. Abraham, Moses, the prophets, Jesus, and Mohammed.
So for you theres only INGIL AND TAWRAT? what about ISa Upanishads? Its also a sacred religious text.. if you read AQ and like to compere to the Darkeness hadiths of the Bible you should read also and compere the Hindu texts
AQ is complete, detailed, simple, and Wordf God
The rest i dont trust, ive pessad more than 10 years in search for Bible Caracters.. what i found is a SALADUpanishads are not quoted in the Quran. You are comparing apples to oranges there. Quran is complete, but Quran confirms the Torah and Gospel, does it not? Salads are good for you, you should eat them. In all seriousness, prior revelation is a different style than the Quran. It takes getting used to - just like me getting used to the style of the Quran took about a year of reading it.
AQ is complete, no need to be analized on the "light" tempt, of thge bible, thats too do the same as our Ancestors, and its not what AQ comand US
Quran is complete, and confirms prior revelation. It is possible to misinterpret Quran if you are not familiar with prior revelation.
Salaam, have a nice week
Peace.
-Joel -
The Torah and Gospel.
The Torah and Gospel are quoted more than anything else in the Quran. The hadiths are quoted 0%. There is no comparison. What about 33?
-Joel
First things first.
The Hebrew Bible, or Tanakh, is divided into three parts (1) the five books of the Torah ("teaching" or "law", comprising the origins of the Israelite nation, its laws and its covenant with the God of Israel; (2) the Nevi'im ("prophets", containing the historic account of ancient Israel and Judah focusing on conflicts between the Israelites and other nations, and conflicts among Israelites ? specifically, struggles between believers in "the Lord God" and believers in foreign gods, and the criticism of unethical and unjust behavior of Israelite elites and rulers; and (3) the Ketuvim ("writings" poetic and philosophical works such as the Psalms and the Book of Job
The Christian Bible is divided into two parts. The first is called the Old Testament, containing the (minimum) 39 books of Hebrew Scripture, and the second portion is called the New Testament, containing a set of 27 books.
Do you think when ever AQ refers to tawrat and Injeel it refers to these 39 + 27 books?
regards
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The Torah and Gospel.
The Torah and Gospel are quoted more than anything else in the Quran. The hadiths are quoted 0%. There is no comparison. What about 33?
-Joel
No, man, they are not quoted. You are running away with your imagination. The Qur'an speaks of prople who, seemingly also show up in the bible, that is not quotation. God does not quote anybody. No, do not make fun of us.
Either you believe in the Qur'an or you don't. If you do believe, then you CANNOT say that God is quoting somebody be it coincidental with what anybody might said, or not coincidental, God does not quote, unless he himself says He is quoting. and then, when He would quote, surly not out of any writing or ppurported wrting but if His own total knowledge.
I cannot believe that somebody who says things like these reallyb elieves in the Qur'an. You want to use the Qur'an to get unsuspecting muslims to swallow a camel called the Bible, that is what it seems to me.
The bible is hadith on a level at best with the hadith of the muslim tradition, not one notch higher.
Salaam
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Do you think when ever AQ refers to tawrat and Injeel it refers to these 39 + 27 books?
regards
Peace Herbman,
The Hebrew word Torah simply means "teaching/instruction". While some Jews believe that the only way to refer to the Jewish scripture as the TaNaK (Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim), the word Torah is often synonymous with all instruction given to the Jews from God. Very often, what is in the prophets is a correction to incorrect or corrupt applications of the Torah, sometimes altering the letter of what was said in order to maintain the core instruction in righteousness. The Quran does the same thing. It does not match the commands of the Torah letter-for-letter, but it confirms the central message and alters what needs to be altered. As the Quran says, it does not change anything without bringing something better. But if you do not know what the previous commands were, how can you properly understand what was altered by God and why?
To explain my view of the relationship of the Gospel (Injil) to the New Testament would take more space and time than either you or I probably would want in this particular thread. Maybe another thread another time. I'm currently working on going through the entire Quran and annotating it with quotes, concepts, and allusions to prior revelation so a reader of the Quran can see how the Quran can both be complete and yet built upon the history of God's dealings with the Jews and the disciples of Jesus. Will I absolutely say that the New Testament is, letter-for-letter, the Injil mentioned in the Quran? Not without some qualification or explanation. But I think these conspiracy theories about forged texts and documents and switching the true Torah and Gospel for a false one is ridiculous. I've seen the manuscript evidence. I've seen how they analyzed the handwriting, comparing it to non-religious texts (personal letters, inventories, etc) from a particular time period in order to determine the age of the handwriting. I've studied the manuscripts with variant readings. There is simply no way that a reasonable person can believe that those texts are not the same texts that were around at the time of Mohammed.
I think the problem with this is two-fold. First, some of the people here who are insisting on Quran Alone divorced from God's dealings with Jews and Nazarenes is because of current ethnic tensions and foreign policy decisions in the middle east between Arabs and Jews backed by America. I get it. My country sucks. They've screwed the Palestinians, their rhetoric about Islam being evil and trying to convert them to Christianity, all the while giving Orthodox Jews a pass is just plain wrong. But that is another issue. People need to stop bringing their FEELINGS about these things to discussions about the Quran. Second, those who have to deal with hadithists are in difficult position if they admit what I'm saying is true, because it would be too easy then for a traditional Muslim to say that the same logic applies against the Quran Alone arguments. Frankly, that logic would not work. It is a very simple thing to show that there is no comparison between hadith and prior revelation in Torah and Gospel. Nonetheless, I understand the apprehension. But again, these two issues have nothing to do with what I'm saying. They are simply the emotional baggage and fears that get in the way of having a reaxsonable and logical discussion.
Think about it. This discussion, and related ones on other threads, are clogging up this forum. It is clearly an emotional issue for some. I wish they would simply think about why their emotions are so strongly against what I'm saying when there really isn't any good argument against it.
Make sense?
Peace,
Joel -
The Torah and Gospel.
The Torah and Gospel are quoted more than anything else in the Quran. The hadiths are quoted 0%. There is no comparison. What about 33?
-Joel
Salaam Joel,
I believe that AlInjeel is not Gospel.
As per 33 only AlTawraat was sent down not AlInjeel, as per 546 AlInjeel was given to 'Eisa son of Maryam unlike AlTawraat.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Here are a few posts to look at. Question have you actually read the prior revelation to know whether or not the Quran quotes it?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16997.msg223836#msg223836
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599077.msg222545#msg222545
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602327.msg282475#msg282475
These posts are hardly comprehensive. I'm currently working on all of the connections and will make them available once I'm done. But this will take a few more months.
-Joel
No, man, they are not quoted. You are running away with your imagination. The Qur'an speaks of prople who, seemingly also show up in the bible, that is not quotation. God does not quote anybody. No, do not make fun of us.
Either you believe in the Qur'an or you don't. If you do believe, then you CANNOT say that God is quoting somebody be it coincidental with what anybody might said, or not coincidental, God does not quote, unless he himself says He is quoting. and then, when He would quote, surly not out of any writing or ppurported wrting but if His own total knowledge.
I cannot believe that somebody who says things like these reallyb elieves in the Qur'an. You want to use the Qur'an to get unsuspecting muslims to swallow a camel called the Bible, that is what it seems to me.
The bible is hadith on a level at best with the hadith of the muslim tradition, not one notch higher.
Salaam
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just an example
quote from wiki
Solomon's sinsAccording to 1 Kings 114 Solomon's "wives turned his heart after other gods", their own national deities, to whom Solomon built temples, thus incurring divine anger and retribution in the form of the division of the kingdom after Solomon's death. (1 Kings 119-13)
1 Kings 11 describes Solomon's descent into idolatry, particularly his turning after Ashtoreth, the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom, the abomination of the Ammonites. In Deuteronomy 1716-17, a king is commanded not to multiply horses or wives, neither greatly multiply to himself gold or silver. Solomon sins in all three of these areas. Solomon collects 666 talents of gold each year, (1 Kings 1014) a huge amount of money for a small nation like Israel. Solomon gathers a large number of horses and chariots and even brings in horses from Egypt. Just as Deuteronomy 17 warns, collecting horses and chariots takes Israel back to Egypt. Finally, Solomon marries foreign women, and these women turn Solomon to other gods.
According to 1 Kings 119-13, it was because of these sins that "the Lord punishes Solomon by tearing the kingdom in two"
And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods. But he did not keep what the LORD commanded. Therefore the LORD said to Solomon, "Since this has been your practice and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes that I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you and will give it to your servant. Yet for the sake of David your father I will not do it in your days, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son. However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem that I have chosen.
Islamic traditionMain article Islamic view of Solomon
In contrast to the Christian tradition (taken from the Hebrew readings of the books of Kings and Chronicles) that Solomon (Sulayman) fell into idolatry in his declining years, Islam denies that any such event took place, nor that Solomon ever turned away from Allah in any way prior to his death and views him as famed throughout the lands for his wisdom and fair judgments."And when there came to them a Messenger from Allah confirming what was with them, a party of those who were given the scripture threw away the book of Allah behind their backs as if they did not know. And they followed what the devils gave out falsely of magic of the reign of Solomon; for Solomon did not disbelieve but the devils disbelieved, teaching men magic and such things that came down at Babylon to the two angels Harut and Marut, but neither of these two (angles) taught anyone (such things) until they had said we are only for trial, so don't disbelieve. And from them (magicians) people learn that through which they would cause separation between a person and his spouse, but they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah's leave; and they learn that which harms them rather than profits them. And indeed they knew that its practitioner would have no share in the Hereafter. And how bad indeed was that for which they sold their own selves if they but knew" (2101-2).
King Solomon was also a prophet and a messenger from Allah. He was the youngest son of the Prophet David (Dawud). King Solomon was a talented man with versatile gifts, and so his father had made him his heir. After the death of Dawud he ascended the throne of Judia on account of his sagacity, power of judgement, right understanding, and spiritual insight. The Qur'an says "And We verily gave knowledge to Dawud and Sulayman and they said praise be to God (Allah) Who has preferred us above many of his believing servants". (2715)
I can give you other examples e.g. Lot but I won't.
About what you are saying regarding jews and arabs.
I don't care about the origine of people what I do care is about their deeds, if you want my point of view regarding Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I do judge with what The God gave me, and I see an oppressor vs an opressed, that's it.
peace -
The wiki is crap. The actions of Solomon's son caused the split. The book of Ecclesiastes explains Solomon's actions in 1 Kings 11. See 3831-33. He enjoyed the wealth of his empire more than he should have, and longer than he should have, but he repented. This does not contradict the account from the Jewish scriptures.
Peace,
Joel -
The wiki is crap. The actions of Solomon's son caused the split. The book of Ecclesiastes explains Solomon's actions in 1 Kings 11. See 3831-33. He enjoyed the wealth of his empire more than he should have, and longer than he should have, but he repented. This does not contradict the account from the Jewish scriptures.
Peace,
Joelexactly like the hadiths explain the Qur'an!
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Ecclesiastes gives Solomon's perspective of his actions in light of the historical account in 1 Kings. The hadiths don't explain the Quran, they change it. HUGE difference. Play the strawman card somewhere else.
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Ecclesiastes gives Solomon's perspective of his actions in light of the historical account in 1 Kings. The hadiths don't explain the Quran, they change it. HUGE difference. Play the strawman card somewhere else.
I am not playing the strawman card
quote from the bible King 1 chapt 119 And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
11 Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.
Can you please quote in Ecclesiastes Solomon's perspective of his actions?
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The kingdom was not taken from Solomon in his lifetime, but the passage was prophetic of what would happen after him. It was a revocation of the promise made to David that his descendants would sit on the throne so long as they maintained their obedience. It was a consequence of his action, but it does not change his status before God as a wise and great king. I also fail to see how this contradicts the Quran. The wiki article you cited is incorrect in its understanding of the Quran's perspective of Solomon. It does mention him enjoying his wealth past the amount of time that he should have, but he repented, as mentioned previously in 3831-33.
From Ecclesiastes
Chapter 21 I said to myself, ?Come now, I will test you with pleasure to find out what is good.? But that also proved to be meaningless. 2 ?Laughter,? I said, ?is madness. And what does pleasure accomplish?? 3 I tried cheering myself with wine, and embracing folly?my mind still guiding me with wisdom. I wanted to see what was good for people to do under the heavens during the few days of their lives.
4 I undertook great projects I built houses for myself and planted vineyards. 5 I made gardens and parks and planted all kinds of fruit trees in them. 6 I made reservoirs to water groves of flourishing trees. 7 I bought male and female slaves and had other slaves who were born in my house. I also owned more herds and flocks than anyone in Jerusalem before me. 8 I amassed silver and gold for myself, and the treasure of kings and provinces. I acquired male and female singers, and a harem as well?the delights of a man?s heart. 9 I became greater by far than anyone in Jerusalem before me. In all this my wisdom stayed with me.10 I denied myself nothing my eyes desired;
I refused my heart no pleasure.
My heart took delight in all my labor,
and this was the reward for all my toil.
11 Yet when I surveyed all that my hands had done
and what I had toiled to achieve,
everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind;
nothing was gained under the sun.Conclusion of Ecclesiastes
1213 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil. -
Bible
quote from the bible King 1 chapt 11 verse 4
4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, his wives turned away his heart after other gods and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.
Quran
Moshi Khan
Sulaim?n did not disbelieve, but the Shay?tin (devils) disbelieved -
C'mon, really. What a person feels in his heart, and what he believes in his head can be two different things. Gods are more than idols, statues, and joining partners with God. Wealth, excessive pleasure, etc, are gods, too. A person can believe truly that here is but one God who must be obeyed, but the heart can become sick and rebel against a person's better judgment, particularly when women are involved. hypno Do you disagree? Do you really want to continue to drag this out? According to Quran, we are not to make distinctions between messengers. I'm not disputing the Quran. I'm not disputing ANY of the messengers of God. Why do you continue to make distinctions and deny all the messengers of God?
-Joel
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C'mon, really. What a person feels in his heart, and what he believes in his head can be two different things. Gods are more than idols, statues, and joining partners with God. Wealth, excessive pleasure, etc, are gods, too. A person can believe truly that here is but one God who must be obeyed, but the heart can become sick and rebel against a person's better judgment, particularly when women are involved. hypno Do you disagree? Do you really want to continue to drag this out? According to Quran, we are not to make distinctions between messengers. I'm not disputing the Quran. I'm not disputing ANY of the messengers of God. Why do you continue to make distinctions and deny all the messengers of God?
-Joel
Qur'an 38-31-33 as you quoted many times in the discussion
some background for you
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603420.0"Behold there were brought before him, at eventide, coursers of the highest breeding; and swift of foot;
And he said "Truly do I love the love of good, with a view to the glory of my Lord" Until (the sun) was hidden in the veil (of Night)
"Bring them back to me." Then began he to pass his hand over (their) legs and their necks."Do you think Solomon was making God's partner by loving playing with his horses, or wives or whatever? I don't think so, and I know where you coming from, you missed a big piece in the puzzle.
Please do not accuse me of " making distinctions and denying all the messengers of God"
Keep respectfull
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I believe that AlInjeel is not Gospel.
Peace mmkhan,
Have you changed your position on this, or has this always been your opinion?
As per 33 only AlTawraat was sent down not AlInjeel, as per 546 AlInjeel was given to 'Eisa son of Maryam unlike AlTawraat.
Not sure what you mean here. 33 "Nazzala AAalayka alkitaba bialhaqqi musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi waanzala alttawrata waalinjeela" He sent down on you the book in truth, confirming what is between its hands, that is He sent down the Torah and the Injeel.
In addition, 547 confirms that the Injeel existed as divine revelation at the time the Quran itself was being revealed.
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3832 He said "I have enjoyed materialism over the remembrance of my Lord, until it had set beyond the horizon!"
3833 "Send them back." He then rubbed their legs and necks.
3834 And We tested Solomon and placed a corpse upon his throne, but he then repented.I do not believe that the passage has anything to do with salat. It has to do with the recognition of a missed opportunity to be obedient. If he was obedient, then why the need to repent in 3834?
Besides, I honestly do not see the need to make the different scriptures match word-for-word, especially in narratives. God knows why they do not match exactly, but that does not change that it is clear that the Quran is part of the same history of revelation as the Torah and Gospel. Like I said, some might try to argue that these scriptures were intentional translation of the Quran, but manuscript evidence weighs very strongly against this.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but assume for a moment that I'm right. If I'm right, then what would you call it if a person says that the Torah and Gospel are not inspired or related to the Quran?
Peace,
JoelQur'an 38-31-33 as you quoted many times in the discussion
some background for you
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603420.0"Behold there were brought before him, at eventide, coursers of the highest breeding; and swift of foot;
And he said "Truly do I love the love of good, with a view to the glory of my Lord" Until (the sun) was hidden in the veil (of Night)
"Bring them back to me." Then began he to pass his hand over (their) legs and their necks."Do you think Solomon was making God's partner by loving playing with his horses, or wives or whatever? I don't think so, and I know where you coming from, you missed a big piece in the puzzle.
Please do not accuse me of " making distinctions and denying all the messengers of God"
Keep respectfull
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Peace mmkhan,
Have you changed your position on this, or has this always been your opinion?
Salaam Hoppean,
This is always been my opinion that AlInjeel is not Gospel.
Not sure what you mean here. 33 "Nazzala AAalayka alkitaba bialhaqqi musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi waanzala alttawrata waalinjeela" He sent down on you the book in truth, confirming what is between its hands, that is He sent down the Torah and the Injeel.
I understand, actually you have to understand the patterns of AlQuraan, Allah never said in a place that He sent down AlInjeel and on another place He gave AlInjeel. Once it is said that AlInjeel is given mean given. Please look at some example below
453
453 In the heavens and the earth are signs for the believers.If you notice, there is not mentioned of fee in Arabic before AlArdh but there is fee before AlSamawaat. It cannot be translated as
In the heavens and in the earth are signs for the believers. but it has to be translated as
In the heavens and the earth are signs for the believers. It is because Allah used it the other way when He wills.
4513
4513 And He commissioned in your service what is in the heavens and what is in the earth; all from Him. In that are signs for a people who reflect.There are many more examples. This means if there is no anzala before AlInjeel in 33 means AlInjeel is not been sent down. The other aayaats clarifies it that AlInjeel was aataina as per 546 and 5727. Please do let me know if you find any aayat saying that AlInjeel with anzala clearly as in 546 and 5727.
Hope you understand what I am saying, inshaAllah.
In addition, 547 confirms that the Injeel existed as divine revelation at the time the Quran itself was being revealed.
Yes I agree with it, I believe that AlInjeel is still existing as divine as per 547.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Salaam,
Hey guys! I have something for you.
544
544 We have sent down the Touraat, in it is a guidance and a light; the prophets who have submitted judged with it for those who are Jewish, and the Devotees, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of the Book of God, and they were witness over. So do not be concerned with the people but be concerned with Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.It says that AlTauraat is not for us , in it is guidance and light for Jews.
546
546 And We sent in their footsteps Eisa, son of Maryam, authenticating what was present with him of the Touraat. And We gave him the Injeel, in it is a guidance and a light, and authenticating what was present with him of the Touraat, and a guidance and a lesson for the righteous.It says that AlInjeel still has guidance and light in it, but...
547
547 And let the people of the Injeel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.It is for the people of AlInjeel, not for us . So no more fighting
Still if you wanna judge with those books, here is one for you...
543
543 And how can they make you their judge and when they have the Touraat, in which there is the judgment of God; then they turn away after that. Those are not believers.May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
mmKhan