Transalation of proper names of AQ?
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Peace mmkhan,
Have you changed your position on this, or has this always been your opinion?
Salaam Hoppean,
This is always been my opinion that AlInjeel is not Gospel.
Not sure what you mean here. 33 "Nazzala AAalayka alkitaba bialhaqqi musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi waanzala alttawrata waalinjeela" He sent down on you the book in truth, confirming what is between its hands, that is He sent down the Torah and the Injeel.
I understand, actually you have to understand the patterns of AlQuraan, Allah never said in a place that He sent down AlInjeel and on another place He gave AlInjeel. Once it is said that AlInjeel is given mean given. Please look at some example below
453
453 In the heavens and the earth are signs for the believers.If you notice, there is not mentioned of fee in Arabic before AlArdh but there is fee before AlSamawaat. It cannot be translated as
In the heavens and in the earth are signs for the believers. but it has to be translated as
In the heavens and the earth are signs for the believers. It is because Allah used it the other way when He wills.
4513
4513 And He commissioned in your service what is in the heavens and what is in the earth; all from Him. In that are signs for a people who reflect.There are many more examples. This means if there is no anzala before AlInjeel in 33 means AlInjeel is not been sent down. The other aayaats clarifies it that AlInjeel was aataina as per 546 and 5727. Please do let me know if you find any aayat saying that AlInjeel with anzala clearly as in 546 and 5727.
Hope you understand what I am saying, inshaAllah.
In addition, 547 confirms that the Injeel existed as divine revelation at the time the Quran itself was being revealed.
Yes I agree with it, I believe that AlInjeel is still existing as divine as per 547.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Salaam,
Hey guys! I have something for you.
544
544 We have sent down the Touraat, in it is a guidance and a light; the prophets who have submitted judged with it for those who are Jewish, and the Devotees, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of the Book of God, and they were witness over. So do not be concerned with the people but be concerned with Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.It says that AlTauraat is not for us , in it is guidance and light for Jews.
546
546 And We sent in their footsteps Eisa, son of Maryam, authenticating what was present with him of the Touraat. And We gave him the Injeel, in it is a guidance and a light, and authenticating what was present with him of the Touraat, and a guidance and a lesson for the righteous.It says that AlInjeel still has guidance and light in it, but...
547
547 And let the people of the Injeel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.It is for the people of AlInjeel, not for us . So no more fighting
Still if you wanna judge with those books, here is one for you...
543
543 And how can they make you their judge and when they have the Touraat, in which there is the judgment of God; then they turn away after that. Those are not believers.May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Peace mmkhan,
(And thank you for dealing with these verses.) )
Salaam,
Hey guys! I have something for you.
544 We have sent down the Touraat, in it is a guidance and a light; the prophets who have submitted judged with it for those who are Jewish, and the Devotees, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of the Book of God, and they were witness over. So do not be concerned with the people but be concerned with Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.
It says that AlTauraat is not for us , in it is guidance and light for Jews.
I think what it is saying is that the prophets judged over the Jews, and the devotees (I'm guessing non-Jewish converts), and the priests with it, and follows up with the general principle that refusing to judge with what God has sent down is a sign of rejection. But just my opinion.
546 And We sent in their footsteps Eisa, son of Maryam, authenticating what was present with him of the Touraat. And We gave him the Injeel, in it is a guidance and a light, and authenticating what was present with him of the Touraat, and a guidance and a lesson for the righteous.
It says that AlInjeel still has guidance and light in it, but...
Aye, a guidance and light for the righteous. Would you say that this applies to all righteous, or just some group of righteous?
547 And let the people of the Injeel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
It is for the people of AlInjeel, not for us . So no more fighting
Who would you say are the people of the good news? Isn't anyone who submits to God someone who has recieved the good news of God's plan for humanity?
Still if you wanna judge with those books, here is one for you...
543 And how can they make you their judge and when they have the Touraat, in which there is the judgment of God;then they turn away after that. Those are not believers.
In other words, if they have the Torah and Gospel, in which is the judgment of God, and yet they still do not submit, how will they find a way to submit to God because of what was given to Mohammed? I don't think this has anything to do with dividing who uses what book to judge, but about the hardness of the heart of some of those with prior revelation. This actually is also a reference to something Jesus said in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. A rich man died, who refused to help a beggar named Lazarus, who also died at the same time. Lazarus was being comforted by Abraham, while the rich man was in hell. The rich man begged fro Abraham to send Lazarus back from the dead to warn his family, but Abraham said that if they would not hear Moses and the prophets, then they would not even listen to someone from the dead.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
mmKhanYes, may we all be rightly guided.
-Joel
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Here are a few posts to look at. Question have you actually read the prior revelation to know whether or not the Quran quotes it?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16997.msg223836#msg223836
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599077.msg222545#msg222545
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602327.msg282475#msg282475
These posts are hardly comprehensive. I'm currently working on all of the connections and will make them available once I'm done. But this will take a few more months.
-Joel
YES MAN, YES I have read the prior revelation. it used to be the scriptures of what was my religion at a time. I Know, I know.The qur'an does not quote anything. God doesn't quote anything. God knows every thing and does not need togo to any book to speak wha H knows and wants to be revealed.
And the bible is hadith. It oesn't make any difference whether it was told in this century or on that century. Still it is hadith. Qur'anists do not say that all hadith is bullshit, they simly say that it is not guaranteed that it is God's revelation, exactly like the Bible. There are very wise, wondrous hadiths, just as there are good things in the bible, but they are hadith just as the bible is hadith.
The bible is not on a foot with the Qur'an. No way. Is there some good in it? Yes, There is also some good in hadith. So we must pick through hadith and pick through the bible if we want to get the gems, and it is not the only places where one can get gems.
Salaam.
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Salaam Hoppean,
This is always been my opinion that AlInjeel is not Gospel.
I understand, actually you have to understand the patterns of AlQuraan, Allah never said in a place that He sent down AlInjeel and on another place He gave AlInjeel. Once it is said that AlInjeel is given mean given. Please look at some example below...
Peace mmkhan,
I think I understand now, thanks for the clarification.
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Peace mmkhan,
(And thank you for dealing with these verses.)
Salaam MM,
You are welcome brother.
I think what it is saying is that the prophets judged over the Jews, and the devotees (I'm guessing non-Jewish converts), and the priests with it, and follows up with the general principle that refusing to judge with what God has sent down is a sign of rejection. But just my opinion.
I am not sure about the highlighted part above. But I see the aayat in a different way
544 We have sent down the Touraat, in it is a guidance and a light; the prophets who have submitted judged with it for those who are Jewish, and the Devotees, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of the Book of God, and they were witness over. So do not be concerned with the people but be concerned with Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.
I have divided this with three colors as per my understanding. First part says that AlTauraat was sent down which has guidance and light and the prophets who have submitted and the devotees judged with it for those who are Jewish. Second part says and the Priests were entrusted of the Book of Allah and they were witness over. Third part says WHOEVER does not judge with what Allah has sent down, these are the rejectors, this third part is common for everyone.
Aye, a guidance and light for the righteous. Would you say that this applies to all righteous, or just some group of righteous?
Thanks for highlighting that for me. It simply says lilmuttaqeen which includes all. As per my understanding it is referring to AlTauraat not AlInjeel as per the pattern of text.
Who would you say are the people of the good news? Isn't anyone who submits to God someone who has recieved the good news of God's plan for humanity?
Good News? hmm
If you are referring to AlInjeel, I wanted to use it as name instead of translating it. I am sorry, I don't know who are Ahl-AlInjeel . I don't think it is referring to what you said.
In other words, if they have the Torah and Gospel, in which is the judgment of God, and yet they still do not submit, how will they find a way to submit to God because of what was given to Mohammed? I don't think this has anything to do with dividing who uses what book to judge, but about the hardness of the heart of some of those with prior revelation.
Where did Mohammed come from? There is no mentioned of Mohammed in 543. The aayat is very clear, if you read different translations you may understand it better, inshaAllah.
This actually is also a reference to something Jesus said in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. A rich man died, who refused to help a beggar named Lazarus, who also died at the same time. Lazarus was being comforted by Abraham, while the rich man was in hell. The rich man begged fro Abraham to send Lazarus back from the dead to warn his family, but Abraham said that if they would not hear Moses and the prophets, then they would not even listen to someone from the dead.
-X
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Good News? hmm
If you are referring to AlInjeel, I wanted to use it as name instead of translating it. I am sorry, I don't know who are Ahl-AlInjeel . I don't think it is referring to what you said.
Perhaps, but as someone who has some experience with the original languages of both the Jewish and Christian scriptures, I see a lot of loan words from Hebrew and Greek. Injil, I believe, is a transliteration from the Greek "Euangel", which means "good news." Another loan word, I believe, that does the switch from "g" in Greek to "j" in Arabic is "Jahanam", from the Greek "Gehenna", which incidentally is a loan word from Hebrew for "Valley of Hinnom". It originally was a place where some Jews burnt their children in fires to the false god Molech, and at the time of Jesus is was the trash dump for Jerusalem, and it constantly burned and stank.
-X
Yeah, I know. But keep in mind Jesus told that parable prior to the Quran.
Anyways, it appears that on this subject I am very much in the minority. So even though I read a translation of the Quran alongside reading Torah and Gospel, perhaps I should continue to refer to myself as a Unitarian or monotheist and not a muslim. I doubt such titles matter too much, but still. Since it appears what I'm saying has more philosophical common ground with hadithers (and I certainly do not like the hadith), perhaps "muslim" or "Quran alone" is not the designation for me.
Peace,
Joel -
Much of the assumptions regarding what the Qur'an is or is not derive from preconceptions and not from what the Qur'an itself says. Obviously, without living in the world we wouldn't understand the Qur'an since it is directed to people in the world, but to pick from he whole world and history events or purorted events or people or places as "more Quranic" than others, that is not from the Qur'an, that is pre-conception. There is no sacred tradition more sacred than others, and according to the Qur'an God sent revelations to all peoples. There is ot particular fixation with any in particular, except that the messenger to whom the Qur'an was sent lived in a certain setting where people would have to be spoken using for that those elements that were known in that setting, and that is wy the Qur'amm refers to names and peoples which were known of the audience. A people from another place, when reading the Qur'an may think of other instances where what happened to those names happened also with the names they know.
Salaam
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Perhaps, but as someone who has some experience with the original languages of both the Jewish and Christian scriptures, I see a lot of loan words from Hebrew and Greek. Injil, I believe, is a transliteration from the Greek "Euangel", which means "good news." Another loan word, I believe, that does the switch from "g" in Greek to "j" in Arabic is "Jahanam", from the Greek "Gehenna", which incidentally is a loan word from Hebrew for "Valley of Hinnom". It originally was a place where some Jews burnt their children in fires to the false god Molech, and at the time of Jesus is was the trash dump for Jerusalem, and it constantly burned and stank.
Salaam MM,
I cannot agree on this because they could be right or wrong what you are saying. And as per my understanding even if the words of language X has been taken from other languages Y and Z, they are not the words of language X, it has nothing to do with the languages it has taken from. So,
- There is no way translating names
- There is no way translating it as per the previous languages where it came from.
And I strongly believe that AlQuraan is self sufficient to clarify the words used in it which no one can deny.
Yeah, I know. But keep in mind Jesus told that parable prior to the Quran.
Anyways, it appears that on this subject I am very much in the minority. So even though I read a translation of the Quran alongside reading Torah and Gospel, perhaps I should continue to refer to myself as a Unitarian or monotheist and not a muslim. I doubt such titles matter too much, but still. Since it appears what I'm saying has more philosophical common ground with hadithers (and I certainly do not like the hadith), perhaps "muslim" or "Quran alone" is not the designation for me.
I don't know who Jesus is, if you are referring to Eisa, son of Maryam I have to study a lot about him. And I am happy to say that I am a Muslim as per 2278
As per your saying that you have knowledge from AlTauraat and AlInjeel I would suggest you keep your knowledge aside for few months and try to study AlQuraan without taking any other source to understand it by itself. InshaAllah, you will see a lot of difference in your understanding. Just a suggestion.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
mmKhan -
And recall in the Book, Enoch; he was a man of truth, a prophet. And We raised him to a high place. (1956-57)
Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him. (Genesis 524)While I know there is debate on whether or not the verb in Arabic means an actual physical raising or a giving of respect, I believe there is at least one use of the verb where it literally means something/someone was raised in the air. Besides, like you said, some words in the Quran are given their own meaning despite meaning something different in Arabic.
Salaam MaverickMonotheist,
For me this is absolute no reason to link this 2 names.
This is in my eyes the same as what sunnis do for their translation of 1111
They can give even a better proof from their ahadith that 1111 is about Abu Lahab then what you gave here.
For me nopeYahya is closer to the Hebrew name for John = Yahanan. In Hebrew it means "God is generous", what does Yahya mean?
something like he lives
And their prophet said to them "God has sent Saul to you as a king." They said "How can he have the kingship when we are more deserving than him, and he has not been given an abundance of wealth?" He said "God has chosen him over you and increased him in knowledge and physical stature." God grants His sovereignty to whom He chooses; and God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable. (2247)
There was a man of Benjamin whose name was Kish, the son of Abiel, son of Zeror, son of Becorath, son of Aphiah, a Benjaminite, a man of wealth. And he had a son whose name was Saul, a handsome young man. There was not a man among the people of Israel more handsome than he. From his shoulders upward he was taller than any of the people. (1 Samuel 91-2)
Do you see how prior scriptures help the use of the names make a lot more sense because of the context of the events? Edit while it might seem like a contradiction that the Quran says that he was not given an abundance of wealth, and the Jewish scripture says that his father was wealthy, the likelihood is that Saul was very young, likely so young that he was not eligible to receive his inheritance from his father. This would be the reason why the people in the Quran did not want him to be king.
Sorry I don't agree, see the example above about Abu Lahab. I would have agreed with you if I had the real Torah in my hands or The Indjiel...
-Joel
salaam,
Bender -
Salaam MM,
I cannot agree on this because they could be right or wrong what you are saying. And as per my understanding even if the words of language X has been taken from other languages Y and Z, they are not the words of language X, it has nothing to do with the languages it has taken from. So,
- There is no way translating names
- There is no way translating it as per the previous languages where it came from.
Salaam brother
I don't believe in the saying that certain words in The Quran are borrowed words from other languages, because for example of this verse
122 We have sent it down an Arabic Qur'an, perhaps you will comprehend. -
It really sickens me how some in here have the nerve to attribute the bible to Allah, and go to it to "explain stories"
brother Huruf and others pretty much nailed it on the head. You guys are no different then sectarians who run to hadith to explain the Quran. when you base your understanding of the quran in conjunction with the bible, you get a molded and twisted message.
For example I had a brother twist a verse of the Quran and quote the bible saying muslims have to practice circumscission. THERE IS NOT ONE VERSE ABOUT THAT.
And Maverick SHAME ON YOU for endorsing false bible tales calling solomon a disbeliever. HE WAS NOT. and Al Quran is clear he was a believer.
Isa is not Jesus, get that through your head.
The Quran is clear, and complete, It has been THE SAME message revealed to all the messengers. it is not a book that can be forged.
Allah tells us to disregard contradiction. For any bible thumpin Muslim in here, why did you leave the hadith? because I can quote you every bible verse in complete CONGRUENCE with hadith shariah.
you have exchanged one devil for another. and it makes no difference because your still putting the Quran in the passenger seat, instead of the drivers seat.
Allah knows best,
Salam to all
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Perhaps, but as someone who has some experience with the original languages of both the Jewish and Christian scriptures, I see a lot of loan words from Hebrew and Greek. Injil, I believe, is a transliteration from the Greek "Euangel", which means "good news." Another loan word, I believe, that does the switch from "g" in Greek to "j" in Arabic is "Jahanam", from the Greek "Gehenna", which incidentally is a loan word from Hebrew for "Valley of Hinnom". It originally was a place where some Jews burnt their children in fires to the false god Molech, and at the time of Jesus is was the trash dump for Jerusalem, and it constantly burned and stank.
Yeah, I know. But keep in mind Jesus told that parable prior to the Quran.
Anyways, it appears that on this subject I am very much in the minority. So even though I read a translation of the Quran alongside reading Torah and Gospel, perhaps I should continue to refer to myself as a Unitarian or monotheist and not a muslim. I doubt such titles matter too much, but still. Since it appears what I'm saying has more philosophical common ground with hadithers (and I certainly do not like the hadith), perhaps "muslim" or "Quran alone" is not the designation for me.
Peace,
JoelThis is the problem you use other languages to claim words are altered.
The Quran is in a pure arabic tongue with no ajami influence. the fact you would say greek influenced the arabic of the Quran is a gross assertion. but that is the only way to accept the false lies you are being fed. to each their own.
is it any wodner that the pagan deities of Noahs people named in Quran have all been found in ruins of YEMEN? SOUTH ARABIA? looks like the bible fails in Noahs story. its not Iraq.
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In addition to the exegesis that Hoppean has wisely requested, I'd also like to see some scholarly etymology of "Injil" and "Tautar" and "Jahannam" and "Sabi'un" (and don't tell me it means Sabean. They worshipped the host of heaven). Since they are, as stated, "pure" Arabic.
At this point, all I'm getting from some of you is a lot of empty and insulting rhetoric, and not anything solid, scholarly, or rational.
This is the problem you use other languages to claim words are altered.
The Quran is in a pure arabic tongue with no ajami influence. the fact you would say greek influenced the arabic of the Quran is a gross assertion. but that is the only way to accept the false lies you are being fed. to each their own.
is it any wodner that the pagan deities of Noahs people named in Quran have all been found in ruins of YEMEN? SOUTH ARABIA? looks like the bible fails in Noahs story. its not Iraq.
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In addition to the exegesis that Hoppean has wisely requested, I'd also like to see some scholarly etymology of "Injil" and "Tautar" and "Jahannam" and "Sabi'un" (and don't tell me it means Sabean. They worshipped the host of heaven). Since they are, as stated, "pure" Arabic.
At this point, all I'm getting from some of you is a lot of empty and insulting rhetoric, and not anything solid, scholarly, or rational.
Salaam MaverickMonotheist,
if I am one of them, then i am sorry, it was not my intention to insult you. I only tried to give my thoughts about the subject, but maybe you are right and had to choose better words, i am sorry for that.
Salaam,
bender -
What you have put yourself regarding the Qur'an is a lot of empty rhetoric, lacking anything solid, lacking knowledge of Arabic, not anything scholarly or rational, just preconceived stuff on what th Qur'an should be on not on what it is.
Salaam
really? because proponents of your false ideology wrongfully asserted that all the pagan deities of Noah found in this verse are bastardizations of loan words and not the actual names of his Gods since you believe they are from Iraq.
7121 And Noah said ?Lord, my people disobey me and follow those whose wealth and offspring will only hasten their perdition. They have devised an outrageous plot, and said to each other ?Do not renounce your gods. Do not forsake Wad or Sowa or Yaghuth or Ya?uq or Nasr.? ? They have led numerous men astray. You surely drive the wrongdoers to further error.?
All these Gods exist in Yemen by name to the letter, among its peoples tribes. find me any of these deities in Iraq since you believe you need the bible to understand the Quran. you reason no differen then a hadither. Salam
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Peace all.
Interesting point AlboDibran...
All these Gods exist in Yemen by name to the letter, among its peoples tribes. find me any of these deities in Iraq since you believe you need the bible to understand the Quran. you reason no differen then a hadithe
And yes, could we have this?
In addition to the exegesis that Hoppean has wisely requested, I'd also like to see some scholarly etymology of "Injil" and "Tautar" and "Jahannam" and "Sabi'un" (and don't tell me it means Sabean. They worshipped the host of heaven). Since they are, as stated, "pure" Arabic.
yes
Peace