Questions regarding dowry in quran
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Shalom,
Can a wealthy husband also demand dowry from a poor wife ?
I never found that to be true.
what has that to do with the question?
I read somewhere in this thread about "a women who is already rich enough". Hence I thought about sharing my view that she is rich enough in your eyes only.
so you have a problem with a girl from a multimillionaire background who loves a very poor man and wants to marry that poor man?
Why would I have a problem with her ? If she loves the man so much, she would not ask for a dowry thats beyond the ability of that man to provide. Simple as that.
Peace
------------- Student of Allah -
I never found that to be true.
why ? Whats wrong with it ?
I read somewhere in this thread about "a women who is already rich enough". Hence I thought about sharing my view that she is rich enough in your eyes only.
there are people like you who think that wealthy women marry wealthy men for money. Please come on. We live in 2012.
Why would I have a problem with her ? If she loves the man so much, she would not ask for a dowry thats beyond the ability of that man to provide. Simple as that.
why should she ask for dowry in the first place ? Can the poor man ask the wealthy woman for dowry instead ?
You clearly didnt understood the topic.
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why ? Whats wrong with it ?
there are people like you who think that wealthy women marry wealthy men for money. Please come on. We live in 2012.
why should she ask for dowry ? Can the poor man ask the wealthy woman for dowry instead ?
You clearly didnt understood the topic.
"Bring forth your proof if you are truthful."
I am not here in Free-Minds to waste my time with people that goes around accusing others for no reason. Show me where I said that wealthy women marry wealthy man for money. If you can not, then fear Allah and do not go around accusing people like this.
Peace be on you
------------------------ Student of Allah
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"Bring forth your proof if you are truthful."
I am not here in Free-Minds to waste my time with people that goes around accusing others for no reason. Show me where I said that wealthy women marry wealthy man for money. If you can not, then fear Allah and do not go around accusing people like this.
Peace be on you
Sure. You said following
I must inform you that just because she is wealthy, it does not mean that she can not desire to be wealthier. So, a girl from a multimillionaire background may very well seek a man who can provide her more or atleast the same as she herself can.
It's so obvious that you was raised as a hadither. Learn little bit more about reality so that you can get over your sexist ideas. No woman needs your money, so keep your dowry to yourself.
Peace
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Sure. You said following
I must inform you that just because she is wealthy, it does not mean that she can not desire to be wealthier. So, a girl from a multimillionaire background may very well seek a man who can provide her more or atleast the same as she herself can.
It's so obvious that you was raised as a hadither. Learn little bit more about reality so that you can get over your sexist ideas. No woman needs your money, so keep your dowry to yourself.
Peace
You are reading the part you wanted to and ignoring the part you dont want to read... I said
I must inform you that just because she is wealthy, it does not mean that she can not desire to be wealthier. So, a girl from a multimillionaire background may very well seek a man who can provide her more or atleast the same as she herself can.
MAY VERY WELL = IF SHE WISHES TO
I did not say that she MUST, I said that she has the right to chose for herself.
Please do not bring in personal attacks, you dont know enough about my background to state any such thing about me. After repeating over and over that ITS HER CHOICE and ITS ULTIMATELY UP TO THE WOMEN... you are saying that I am sexist ?
------------ Student of Allah
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You are reading the part you wanted to and ignoring the part you dont want to read... I said
MAY VERY WELL = IF SHE WISHES TO
I did not say that she MUST, I said that she has the right to chose for herself.
Please do not bring in personal attacks, you dont know enough about my background to state any such thing about me. After repeating over and over that ITS HER CHOICE and ITS ULTIMATELY UP TO THE WOMEN... you are saying that I am sexist ?
------------ Student of Allah
I clearly misunderstood you. I apologize and take my words about you being a sexist back ).
Peace brother group
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Maha,
I look at it like this. The dowry is there to protect the women. Especially back in those days. Men were the sole provider back then. I have a daughter she is only 8 but still, when she becomes older and decides to marry, I want to know she is going to be taken care of. Even if she is a doctor and can take care of herself, which is great that she can in case something happens. However, it is nice to know.. she is married to a man with good work ethics, who is not gonna sit on his butt and expect her to pay for everything or make her life hard by not contributing.
Once you start giving men money, some take this as a sign that you don't need them. Men LOVE to feel as though they are taking care of their family. Ask any husband or father. A man demanding a dowry to me shows a flaw. He wants me to take care of him? Is he able to provide? What happens if we get stuck? I would feel better not exchanging any money. If when we are married he needs help in supporting our family, well I will be right beside him helping.
Men are the maintainers and supporters of women.
I think what student was saying is something about a lifestyle. Example, if you have a rich women, she might want a man with money because she is used to a certain standard of living. If you eat steak every night you are not going to be big on settling for say ...sloppy joes. But in the case where she is fine with marrying say a poor man, she can lift the burden of money. It is up to her and is her right. How do you know the poor man is not marrying her for the money?
If a man is afraid the women he might marry is using him, then he can add something to the marriage contract. If she agrees, then it is a protection for them both and between the both of them. I know ppl who have a clause to receive money if they are divorced without grounds, it is very well stipulated. The parties agree and then sign. The rest is with Allah, and Allah knows best.
I hope this helps, even though just my opinion
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look at it like this. The dowry is there to protect the women. Especially back in those days
I dont really care about how it was thousands years ago. I live in 2012 and I care about my own time. I dont need any man to provide anything for me, I am not married and I provide for myself and would properly do that rest of my days.
who is not gonna sit on his butt and expect her to pay for everything or make her life hard by not contributing
properly more women sitt on their butt with the one pregnancy after the another and treat their husband like a working slave
Once you start giving men money, some take this as a sign that you don't need them. Men LOVE to feel as though they are taking care of their family
And 'taking care' of means giving money according to you, no? And women should not 'take care' of men according to you ? But perhaps thats the reason behind why so many muslim men deny their daughters and wives to work because they want to 'take care' of them, no? Proberly thats the reason for why so many muslims are engaged in crimes here where I live, simply because their fathers were absent during their childhoods in order to earn money so they could 'take care' of the family in your own words.
Women should try to take responsibility for themselves instead of exploiting men for money. And men should start to learn they have more important responsibilties to their families then just giving them money. Children need both a mother and father to be beside them.
A man demanding a dowry to me shows a flaw. He wants me to take care of him?
so you should not take care of your husband but you expect your husband to take care of you ?
Is he able to provide? What happens if we get stuck? I would feel better not exchanging any money. If when we are married he needs help in supporting our family, well I will be right beside him helping.
well he can think the same thing about you. How many men are willing to marry a poor woman (a financial burden?)
Men are the maintainers and supporters of women.
I dont believe in that crap and no man has ever been a maintainer and supporter of me, and thank God for that. I am myself the maintainer and supporter of myself and I am totally independed and take responsibilty for myself. As I told you, I have never taken any money from a man except from my father AND mother when i was little. Actually my mother who is a woman has always been a bigger supporter of me. As I told you, I dont need a man in my life. I can support my self and maintain myself.
Are you financial depended on your husband?
Example, if you have a rich women, she might want a man with money because she is used to a certain standard of living.
And sure thats the same with men. Do you think men want to marry a poor woman who would be a financial burden on him?
But in the case where she is fine with marrying say a poor man, she can lift the burden of money. It is up to her and is her right. How do you know the poor man is not marrying her for the money?
just listen to yourself. First you gave a long lecture of how important it is for women to marry a rich husband but when the opposites happens, and rich lady marry a poor guy you think that the poor man married her only for money! Obviously you dont believe in something called love, no? A poor man cannot love a rich lady in your eyes , no ? or do you look down upon poor men ? If your husband was poor you would never marry him, no?
Example, if you have a rich women, she might want a man with money because she is used to a certain standard of living.
And how do YOU know that she didnt married him for money? Or is it ok for a woman to marry a man for money according to you?
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Sweety, You get way to defensive.
I was giving examples.
I do work, why because I believe in helping my family. But not every one lives by that standard, hence the various examples.
Deep, true love is developed over time. Meeting someone and falling in love right away is called infatuation and it fades when real life kicks in.
So you would marry a man who says "I don't want to work and you need to take care of me, like your my mother. Dress me, feed me, please me and take care of the kids?" No way in hell, I can see you are an independent women and you would want someone to enhance your life not drain it.
Marriage is not about money to me, however this discussion is about DOWRY, which tends to have money involved.
I don't care if you don't believe that Men are to be the maintainers and supports of Women. I did not state that.. GOD DID. You can take that up with him on Judgement day, I was just pointing it out.
I am myself the maintainer and supporter of myself.
There is nothing wrong with that, good for you. I am the same way. Even taking care of 2 young ones as a single mother for a few years. I am just saying if/when you marry I bet your husband will also want to support the family.
As far as me making a comment about what happened a thousand years ago, these people needed that guidance and the revelation was for them too. You don't have to have a dowry or ask for one, it is an option between 2 people to agree on.
If a stay at home mother, which is not an easy "sit on your butt job" has an agreement with their spouse to take care of the kids while he is working, by all means that is between them. I have no right to tell them what to do with their family dynamic.
A women should have the right to work if she chooses. What I am saying is to be taken care of.. as in someone helps or pays the rent, food, bills. I was not discussing the emotion aspect, again because this conversation is about dowry. Of course I agree, some throw money at you and call it the day, well there are many more non-financial needs that need to be taken care of.
The nature of a man is to want to provide, in normal circumstances. Read about the male mentality. They are different from us in certain ways. Now don't take this as meaning I think one is greater than the other.. No way in hell. We just think differently.
There are men willing to marry poor women. Again, the bottom line is it is up to the couple.
I was not trying to upset you and make you feel angry. You stated I need to listen to myself, I suggest you do the same. You are extremely defensive and I am sorry if something I said hurt you, that was NEVER my intent. No one is saying you are wrong for your thoughts, we just all have opinions. Which is great because in this way we learn and grow and defeat our inner demons.
I hope you have peace sis.
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Oh by the way..
Women should try to take responsibility for themselves instead of exploiting men for money. And men should start to learn they have more important responsibilties to their families then just giving them money. Children need both a mother and father to be beside them.
I agree with you 100%
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I do work, why because I believe in helping my family. But not every one lives by that standard, hence the various examples
.Oh thank God. I thought you was sitting home and tried to defend it lol . But yes thats what I mean. Both the male and the female has a responsibility to help the family.
So you would marry a man who says "I don't want to work and you need to take care of me, like your my mother. Dress me, feed me, please me and take care of the kids?" No way in hell, I can see you are an independent women and you would want someone to enhance your life not drain it.
lol I never heard any man saying that, did you rotfl But by the way, I dont think a woman has the right to say that she doesnt want to work as well. She is not his mother, and he is not her father. If we still need our parents, then we should properly move back home, no ? confused
Marriage is not about money to me, however this discussion is about DOWRY, which tends to have money involved.
indeed. Now the problem is, that many times women really dont need that dowry, and in other cases its the man who need the dowry most due to his financial hardship.
I don't care if you don't believe that Men are to be the maintainers and supports of Women. I did not state that.. GOD DID. You can take that up with him on Judgement day, I was just pointing it out.
sister I dont believe the almighty ever said it, and I believe the translation is wrong. In any case, in my country all women are maintaners and supporters of their sons, at least when the sons are young. So it doesnt make sense either.
There is nothing wrong with that, good for you. I am the same way. Even taking care of 2 young ones as a single mother for a few years. I am just saying if/when you marry I bet your husband will also want to support the family
My future husband and me will both support our family. And if I loose my job, I hope he would provide for me till I get a new job, and if he looses his job I would definately provide for him as well.
As far as me making a comment about what happened a thousand years ago, these people needed that guidance and the revelation was for them too. You don't have to have a dowry or ask for one, it is an option between 2 people to agree on.
Its not so black and white, sister. There were ancient societies where women were financial independend and could make their own money. In any case, I really dont care. And I believe Quran is timeless hence not more usefull in old times then now.
If a stay at home mother, which is not an easy "sit on your butt job" has an agreement with their spouse to take care of the kids while he is working, by all means that is between them. I have no right to tell them what to do with their family dynamic.
One of my old classmate is an australien male. But he recently told me, that he is tired of being treated as a working slave by his egyptian wife. She got pregnant each year, and was just sitting on her butt in home and demanded him to buy a lot of things for her. He is very sure, that the the reason for why she got pregnant all the time was that she just wanted to sitt home. That was a good excuse for not working. ''I am not her father'' As he said.
That was properly from his story that I gave an example. But I agree with you, that every couple got a right to choose for themselves. However, I am against home mothers sitting on walfare.What I am saying is to be taken care of
ad a man should not be taken care of?
The nature of a man is to want to provide, in normal circumstances
and a woman doesnt want to provide according to you?
Read about the male mentality. They are different from us in certain ways
You are stereotyping males. There is nothing called 'male mentality'. Each male is different from the other. And women and men are not more different from each other then what males are from other males and as how different some females are from other females.
We just think differently
no we dont. you are again stereotyping. Was you a sunni before?
I was not trying to upset you and make you feel angry. You stated I need to listen to myself, I suggest you do the same. You are extremely defensive and I am sorry if something I said hurt you, that was NEVER my intent. No one is saying you are wrong for your thoughts, we just all have opinions. Which is great because in this way we learn and grow and defeat our inner demons
No sister, I think we agree more then we disagree.
But I felt that you was looking down on poor males and I have lived some years in India with a large population of poor people. I dont think its fair you look down on the Indian males. Would you still marry your husband if he was poor?
And if you dont have a problem with a rich female taking dowry from a poor guy why do you then have a problem with a poor guy taking dowry from a rich lady ?
Personally, as I told you, I am financially independent. I dont think about marriage now and would problerly not do it till I find the one I love. I would marry the man I love, I dont care about whether he is rich or poor since I have my own money anyway. But I would rather marry a man, who hasnt food or shelter but has a lot of love to me in his heart, then a rich arrogant pig who thinks he can buy me with money. Just my thoughts.
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Shalom Aleikhem,
Let me see if I can gather some scientific data on the subject. Men and Women are not identical in their abilities. Ofcourse you can find a women that can knock out another man with a one single punch , but hey...lets not generalize that. If I get time, I will try to gather data from scientific studies.
There is a reason why we are Females and Males. We would not be FEMALES and MALES if there were no differences that mattered.
By the way... did you guys discuss about the issue of pregnancy ? men are free from the disadvantages it may cause to a general women. Please share your views regarding it. )
Peace
--------------- Student of Allah -
Salaam Maha,
It is to be noted that while the women have the right to demand a dowry, they are not obligated to ask for one. The Qur?aan does not make it an obligation for women to ask for a dowry no matter what. It actually says that women may let go of the dowry if they so wish. If you don?t want to ask for a dowry when you are to marry, then don?t. The Qur?aan is not forcing you, as a woman, to ask for it. Simple.
If a woman loves a man, in your example that will be a wealthy woman being proposed by a poor man, then she will not ask for a dowry that will put a burden upon the man. She can simply say, I accept your proposal without a dowry.
If she insists on asking for outrageous amount of money as a dowry, then the man has the option of stepping down (no one is forcing him to marry such a woman, after all). Really, if the two love each other enough, then they?ll find a way to make it work.
By the way, it is quite judgemental of you to say the women just sit around at home.? Do you realise how difficult it is for a housewife to manage house chores? How painful it is to undergo childbirth? How emotionally and physically draining it is to raise kids? I have many relatives who don?t work professionally and chose to be housewives ? and let me tell you something, they have A LOT to do. They never stop. They?ll clean, they?ll cook, all while the kids are running around and screaming. You don?t realise that ?work? and ?contribution to the relationship? are not only measured by money/wealth, but also the time and efforts each takes to make the relationship work.
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By the way, it is quite judgemental of you to say the women just sit around at home.? Do you realise how difficult it is for a housewife to manage house chores? How painful it is to undergo childbirth? How emotionally and physically draining it is to raise kids? I have many relatives who don?t work professionally and chose to be housewives ? and let me tell you something, they have A LOT to do. They never stop. They?ll clean, they?ll cook, all while the kids are running around and screaming. You don?t realise that ?work? and ?contribution to the relationship? are not only measured by money/wealth, but also the time and efforts each takes to make the relationship work.
Shalom Aleikhem,
Nice and wise words there. There is more to this relationship then earning money.
Peace
-------------- Student of Allah -
Salaam Maha,
It is to be noted that while the women have the right to demand a dowry, they are not obligated to ask for one. The Qur?aan does not make it an obligation for women to ask for a dowry no matter what. It actually says that women may let go of the dowry if they so wish. If you don?t want to ask for a dowry when you are to marry, then don?t. The Qur?aan is not forcing you, as a woman, to ask for it. Simple.
If a woman loves a man, in your example that will be a wealthy woman being proposed by a poor man, then she will not ask for a dowry that will put a burden upon the man. She can simply say, I accept your proposal without a dowry.
If she insists on asking for outrageous amount of money as a dowry, then the man has the option of stepping down (no one is forcing him to marry such a woman, after all). Really, if the two love each other enough, then they?ll find a way to make it work.
By the way, it is quite judgemental of you to say the women just sit around at home.? Do you realise how difficult it is for a housewife to manage house chores? How painful it is to undergo childbirth? How emotionally and physically draining it is to raise kids? I have many relatives who don?t work professionally and chose to be housewives ? and let me tell you something, they have A LOT to do. They never stop. They?ll clean, they?ll cook, all while the kids are running around and screaming. You don?t realise that ?work? and ?contribution to the relationship? are not only measured by money/wealth, but also the time and efforts each takes to make the relationship work.
This is very true, My mother and her mother work much harder than most men.
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And I have a question that doesn't sound too bad but it's all up to the translations I guess
Could the verse mean the wife has the right to ask for goods from his husbands ( not limited to the day they're getting married ) ?
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It is to be noted that while the women have the right to demand a dowry, they are not obligated to ask for one. The Qur?aan does not make it an obligation for women to ask for a dowry no matter what. It actually says that women may let go of the dowry if they so wish. If you don?t want to ask for a dowry when you are to marry, then don?t. The Qur?aan is not forcing you, as a woman, to ask for it. Simple.
If a woman loves a man, in your example that will be a wealthy woman being proposed by a poor man, then she will not ask for a dowry that will put a burden upon the man. She can simply say, I accept your proposal without a dowry.
If she insists on asking for outrageous amount of money as a dowry, then the man has the option of stepping down (no one is forcing him to marry such a woman, after all). Really, if the two love each other enough, then they?ll find a way to make it work.
indeed. Actually from where I come from, its not in our culture that any woman ask for dowry anyway. I think a man would find it quite weird if his wife demanded a dowry from him. Maybe he would suspect her of exploiting him. But people think different and have different lifestyles in different cultures. And dowry is only an option, not a obligation as you said. In every case, I would suggest that women dont force or put any kind of pressure on the men to give them dowry.
By the way, it is quite judgemental of you to say the women just sit around at home.? Do you realise how difficult it is for a housewife to manage house chores? How painful it is to undergo childbirth? How emotionally and physically draining it is to raise kids? I have many relatives who don?t work professionally and chose to be housewives ? and let me tell you something, they have A LOT to do. They never stop. They?ll clean, they?ll cook, all while the kids are running around and screaming. You don?t realise that ?work? and ?contribution to the relationship? are not only measured by money/wealth, but also the time and efforts each takes to make the relationship work.
I personally never known any house wife. Both my parents worked throughout my childhood and took care of us kids on turn. I feel myself very furtunate because I felt the love and attention of both parents in contradiction to one of my muslim classmates whos father was always absent because he waas the only one who was working in home hence was forced to work many hours each day in order to provide for his family. So her father was always absent, hence she never got that close attachment to her father as a child should have.
But I can imagine that sitting in the home as a house wife is also difficult. But she has herself choosed to be a housewife and give birth to so many children, so I cannot see any reason for feeling pity for her.Peace
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Posted by Student of Allah
? on Yesterday at 063246 PM ?Insert QuoteShalom Aleikhem,
Let me see if I can gather some scientific data on the subject. Men and Women are not identical in their abilities. Ofcourse you can find a women that can knock out another man with a one single punch , but hey...lets not generalize that. If I get time, I will try to gather data from scientific studies.
peace brother. I am looking forward to see your scientific datas.
There is a reason why we are Females and Males. We would not be FEMALES and MALES if there were no differences that mattered.
there is a reason why some are short, some tall, some italian, some spanish, some american as well. Each human is unique. Judging people by their gender is absurd.
By the way... did you guys discuss about the issue of pregnancy ? men are free from the disadvantages it may cause to a general women. Please share your views regarding
come on brother. Is pregnancy really your best argument ? You know what, not all women get pregnant. I am a woman and I never got pregnant, and would maybe never be as I am not sure whether I want children at all. So in that sense I am pretty much like men. But yes males and females have each their own way in reproducing children which - when combined together - makes a compleate new human being. Males and females are supplement to each other in terms of reproducing.
May peace be upon you.
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Household chores are not feminine, even if most women do it unpaid, it is not a feminine job. Men can do them too and in fact historically men have been household servant as much as women and paid for cleaning and servin in the homes, and are now so in restaurants and hotels etc. Household chores are not a feminine question and certainly to do it unpaid should be out of the question, unless those who do acquire fair rights to the wealth of those who benefit from their work.
On the other hand, pregnancy, delivery, suckling and and care and upkeep of the body which is required for that are feminine work. Those nobody can do instead of a woman and most women's lives are conditioned to whatever extent precisely by those expectations, the expectation that a woman will be mother. If she doesn0t become a mother, she has been all the same subject to those expectations, and may be subject to them to the end of her fertile period in life, and be involved in treatments and work to become mother, by her own desire or by that of the would be father or other.
So there are burdens which fall without failure on women and not on men, precisely those of reproduction. There is a completely unequal distribution of work in that sense. Women should be compensated duly for that. The ujur are justified. Whether it is at the level of husband to wife or at the social level of the whole of society to women, that is another question, but to ignore the burden of women and make their work in reproduction, whether fruitful or not, doen't matter, is pure and plain exploitation.
To on top of that take for granted that they do any household chore at all, that is pure and plain cheek.Salaam
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Actually from where I come from, its not in our culture that any woman ask for dowry anyway. I think a man would find it quite weird if his wife demanded a dowry from him.
FYI, in some countries, it is actually the woman's family who is under pressure to give dowry to the man's family. Therefore it is not just the women who get to milk the cash from their (prospective) husbands. Anyway, that is a cultural practice, of course, and I am not an advocate for such a practice.
In every case, I would suggest that women dont force or put any kind of pressure on the men to give them dowry.
I doubt any woman will -force- any man to give her a dowry. I mean, if the woman is that materialistic, she'll dump him if he can't give all the dollar figures (or the man can step down, because a materialistic woman isn't worth it).
But I can imagine that sitting in the home as a house wife is also difficult. But she has herself choosed to be a housewife and give birth to so many children, so I cannot see any reason for feeling pity for her.
I don't ask you to feel PITY for housewives, just basically understanding that they don't have it as easy as you would like to think. I just want you to consider this (or any matter, really) in different perspectives, and not just confine it to your sphere of experience.
I was outlining why the dowry may be justified if both parties agree that the woman should be a housewife instead of being engaged in a workforce. The woman does not receive an income because assumes household responsibilities that the man may not be keen to undertake. Please note that I refer this as a mutual agreement, and not just based on what the woman's decision.
Not all women chose themselves to be housewives, most discuss it with their husbands before the marriage. Believe it or not, many men will actually prefer that the women stay at home instead. So it's not purely what the women want. Also, not all women chose to give birth to 'so many children', their husbands actually have a say on this too. Again, you are assuming that the relationship is a one-way where women have all the decisions, and you don't acknowledge that it may actually be opposite or a combination of both, in different parts of the world.
Both my parents worked throughout my childhood and took care of us kids on turn. I feel myself very furtunate because I felt the love and attention of both parents in contradiction to one of my muslim classmates whos father was always absent because he waas the only one who was working in home hence was forced to work many hours each day in order to provide for his family.
I also want to add that not everyone is able to obtain a part-time job. In many countries, it is difficult to get a full-time job, let alone a part-time one (due to the unstable economy and high competition). Hence, having the woman and the man both work full-time (when they have kids) is often not an option. Hence one has to assume the role of a breadwinner. If you and your partner can both work while not neglecting your kids for a single second(if you decide to have one or two), then do it. But do not think negatively upon others who choose different paths from you, because they may have already weighed out their options and opt for one that is deemed to be the best from them.