An Open Letter of Sorts

MaverickMonotheist

Several months ago, I came to this forum after having lapsed into atheism and agnosticism. During this time I was always angry and combative, I lacked self-discipline and purpose, so naturally my marriage was on shaky ground and I was not being a very good parent. I received kind words and good advice from some of the members here. I am grateful for that, and will not forget it. I thought, ?Perhaps this is where I belong.?

Since that time, I?ve come to see things a little differently. Don?t get me wrong, if this were just another internet forum, I would not say any of these things. But my understanding is that Free Minds has the purpose of moving from internet discussion to engagement with the real world as an organization. If this is truly the case, then I have some observations. Like most of what I say, I?m certain that this will not make me popular, but I feel I need to point out some things because I owe a debt to this community for the sound advice and prayers that were offered when I asked for help.

The difference is that no one here is asking for me help, and so these comments are unsolicited. Nonetheless, I feel like things are stagnant here and I have some thoughts as to why. Why aren?t things growing? Why are ventures not being established in real life? Why are people trickling in and out of the forum? Why are we going round and round over the same issues over and over again with no real resolution?

It seems to me that a lot of this goes back to emphasizing the same things as traditional Islam. Sunnis are, for the most part, pretty homogenous on what they consider to be essentials. They pray the same at the same time. They follow the same scholars who all say pretty much the same things. They follow the same calendar, they fast together, they make pilgrimage to the same place. And they consider this to be a good thing, and they see this as evidence that they are rightly guided. I?m afraid that we are playing the same game. We argue as a forum over what is the right place of hajj and when the sacred months are. We argue over the number of times to pray. We argue over evidence and hermeneutics. We never come to any real resolution over these issues, and so we never unite to do anything. So, either the Qur?an is not fully detailed, or we are arguing over things that the Qur?an is intentionally vague about. We are spending a lot of time on things that are not as important as things that the Qur?an makes more of a fuss about. If we are not going to be able to reach a majority or consensus over most of these issues, we need an approach that allows us to maintain unity through a few basic essentials of Quranic monotheism, and an approach that views a certain level of tolerance as a spiritual act of recognizing man?s inability to answer all of the questions.
The position of Sunni Islam related to the hadiths is not nearly as simple as many of the people here make it out to be. The Sunna is a complex and formidable corpus to wrestle with. After having engaged a few traditional muslims who take this seriously in conversation, it isn?t that simple to refute. BUT what I can say is that dealing with hadith and sunna is not a spiritual task. In the few weeks of dealing with it, I felt confused and uncertain of anything related to God and what is the right path. I assume that this is probably the experience of many converts to traditional Islam. They encounter the Qur?an and are moved by its deep spirituality and truth. Then they convert and become overwhelmed with the complexity of Islam?s oral tradition, and so they give up. Unfortunately, simply rejecting the hadiths does not solve this problem. The same approach can be used with the Qur?an alone, and it can leave people feeling the same way. One only needs to look at the threads related to Ramadan or code 19 to see how the right path can perhaps get lost in the details. The Qur?an has the ability to affect people in their hearts, to move them in a way that they cannot understand. While I am a firm believer in good scholarship and not accepting simple or easy answers, I think we need to make sure that we do not fall into the trap of the scholarship of traditional Islam and make things complex for the sake of complexity or winning arguments. While many of the people here do this, I think the simple spirituality of the Qur?an needs to be greatly emphasized over the rational discussions and arguments.
I think this needs to be clear is this just an internet forum, or is this website intended to serve the purpose of establishing God Alone organizations and gatherings? Lots of things on the website suggest that the aim is establishing something tangible. But most of the discussion and the tendency to have some pretty unpleasant rhetoric towards one another leads me to believe that this will never get beyond a forum.
If the fatwas that declare the rejectors of mutawaatir hadiths to be kaffirun were overturned today, what would be the unifying elements of this community? I don?t know. I think this community is better defined by what it rejects, and not what we hold in common. No viable or spiritually healthy community can be held together solely by what it is against. Once what it is against goes away or is no longer relevant, then the organization splinters. What are the absolute unifying principles of this organization that would hold a diverse body of people together in lasting community? What are we here for? If we aren?t doing it, why aren?t we?

Again, I?m sure this won?t make me any friends here. I hope this is not viewed as an attack on the community. I am grateful for what I have received from many of the members here in terms of good conversation and sound advice. I respect many of you immensely. So it is because of this respect that I?m writing this in the hopes that a conversation will begin in order to move things forward into whatever God wills for FM. While I believe that each of us will stand before God as individuals, I also believe that God did not intend for us to live in spiritual isolation from one another. Our path is one to be undertaken in community, and among brothers and sisters. This connection should, IMHO, go beyond discussing things on a thread and relating only to those that we agree most with.

Peace,
Joel

Kaiokenred

Several months ago, I came to this forum after having lapsed into atheism and agnosticism. During this time I was always angry and combative, I lacked self-discipline and purpose, so naturally my marriage was on shaky ground and I was not being a very good parent. I received kind words and good advice from some of the members here. I am grateful for that, and will not forget it. I thought, ?Perhaps this is where I belong.?

Since that time, I?ve come to see things a little differently. Don?t get me wrong, if this were just another internet forum, I would not say any of these things. But my understanding is that Free Minds has the purpose of moving from internet discussion to engagement with the real world as an organization. If this is truly the case, then I have some observations. Like most of what I say, I?m certain that this will not make me popular, but I feel I need to point out some things because I owe a debt to this community for the sound advice and prayers that were offered when I asked for help.

The difference is that no one here is asking for me help, and so these comments are unsolicited. Nonetheless, I feel like things are stagnant here and I have some thoughts as to why. Why aren?t things growing? Why are ventures not being established in real life? Why are people trickling in and out of the forum? Why are we going round and round over the same issues over and over again with no real resolution?

It seems to me that a lot of this goes back to emphasizing the same things as traditional Islam. Sunnis are, for the most part, pretty homogenous on what they consider to be essentials. They pray the same at the same time. They follow the same scholars who all say pretty much the same things. They follow the same calendar, they fast together, they make pilgrimage to the same place. And they consider this to be a good thing, and they see this as evidence that they are rightly guided. I?m afraid that we are playing the same game. We argue as a forum over what is the right place of hajj and when the sacred months are. We argue over the number of times to pray. We argue over evidence and hermeneutics. We never come to any real resolution over these issues, and so we never unite to do anything. So, either the Qur?an is not fully detailed, or we are arguing over things that the Qur?an is intentionally vague about. We are spending a lot of time on things that are not as important as things that the Qur?an makes more of a fuss about. If we are not going to be able to reach a majority or consensus over most of these issues, we need an approach that allows us to maintain unity through a few basic essentials of Quranic monotheism, and an approach that views a certain level of tolerance as a spiritual act of recognizing man?s inability to answer all of the questions.
The position of Sunni Islam related to the hadiths is not nearly as simple as many of the people here make it out to be. The Sunna is a complex and formidable corpus to wrestle with. After having engaged a few traditional muslims who take this seriously in conversation, it isn?t that simple to refute. BUT what I can say is that dealing with hadith and sunna is not a spiritual task. In the few weeks of dealing with it, I felt confused and uncertain of anything related to God and what is the right path. I assume that this is probably the experience of many converts to traditional Islam. They encounter the Qur?an and are moved by its deep spirituality and truth. Then they convert and become overwhelmed with the complexity of Islam?s oral tradition, and so they give up. Unfortunately, simply rejecting the hadiths does not solve this problem. The same approach can be used with the Qur?an alone, and it can leave people feeling the same way. One only needs to look at the threads related to Ramadan or code 19 to see how the right path can perhaps get lost in the details. The Qur?an has the ability to affect people in their hearts, to move them in a way that they cannot understand. While I am a firm believer in good scholarship and not accepting simple or easy answers, I think we need to make sure that we do not fall into the trap of the scholarship of traditional Islam and make things complex for the sake of complexity or winning arguments. While many of the people here do this, I think the simple spirituality of the Qur?an needs to be greatly emphasized over the rational discussions and arguments.
I think this needs to be clear is this just an internet forum, or is this website intended to serve the purpose of establishing God Alone organizations and gatherings? Lots of things on the website suggest that the aim is establishing something tangible. But most of the discussion and the tendency to have some pretty unpleasant rhetoric towards one another leads me to believe that this will never get beyond a forum.
If the fatwas that declare the rejectors of mutawaatir hadiths to be kaffirun were overturned today, what would be the unifying elements of this community? I don?t know. I think this community is better defined by what it rejects, and not what we hold in common. No viable or spiritually healthy community can be held together solely by what it is against. Once what it is against goes away or is no longer relevant, then the organization splinters. What are the absolute unifying principles of this organization that would hold a diverse body of people together in lasting community? What are we here for? If we aren?t doing it, why aren?t we?

Again, I?m sure this won?t make me any friends here. I hope this is not viewed as an attack on the community. I am grateful for what I have received from many of the members here in terms of good conversation and sound advice. I respect many of you immensely. So it is because of this respect that I?m writing this in the hopes that a conversation will begin in order to move things forward into whatever God wills for FM. While I believe that each of us will stand before God as individuals, I also believe that God did not intend for us to live in spiritual isolation from one another. Our path is one to be undertaken in community, and among brothers and sisters. This connection should, IMHO, go beyond discussing things on a thread and relating only to those that we agree most with.

Peace,
Joel

The Quran is fully detailed, it's just that the translations are corrupted by hadiths, and christianized.

MaverickMonotheist

The Quran is fully detailed, it's just that the translations are corrupted by hadiths, and christianized.

I think the corruption is no place other than our own hearts. I think it is too easy to blame the hadiths or the Christians or the Jews, or whomever or whatever, but really the disease is in our hearts. The remedy isn't the number of rakats or a proper translation of the Qur'an or doing hajj at the right time or the right place. It is something else. Something that binds all of us together and fashions us into a particular kind of person and a particular kind of community. God knows I don't know what it is, but let's at least talk about whether or not our current way of addressing our hearts is working or not. If not, why not, and what do we do about it?

Peace,
Joel

GODsubmitter

Thank you MaverickMonotheist for the sincere and excellent post!

I agree on almost everything you wrote, and must admit that I feel the same!

After two years after embracing Islam and following this forum for instruction and spiritual guidance, I find myself frustrated and overwhelmed by confusion of interpretations, translations of the Qur'an and divergences of opinions on even the most basic issues such as prayer, hajj or Ramadan fast, not to mention calendar.

I ask myself why would one choose Islam?

"You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"

GODsubmitter

I think the corruption is no place other than our own hearts. I think it is too easy to blame the hadiths or the Christians or the Jews, or whomever or whatever, but really the disease is in our hearts. The remedy isn't the number of rakats or a proper translation of the Qur'an or doing hajj at the right time or the right place. It is something else. Something that binds all of us together and fashions us into a particular kind of person and a particular kind of community. God knows I don't know what it is, but let's at least talk about whether or not our current way of addressing our hearts is working or not. If not, why not, and what do we do about it?

Peace,
Joel

That question was posed in the third chapter of the Bible, and the Patriarchs, Prophets and Jesus tried to give answers and cures already. I wonder if mankind is just simply too stupid to understand, or there is no hope and God doesn't involve Himself in human life at all?
The Qur'an does not offer anything new that was not already in the Bible, Midrash, Talmud and the New Testament!

MaverickMonotheist

That question was posed in the third chapter of the Bible, and the Patriarchs, Prophets and Jesus tried to give answers and cures already. I wonder if mankind is just simply too stupid to understand, or there is no hope and God doesn't involve Himself in human life at all?
The Qur'an does not offer anything new that was not already in the Bible, Midrash, Talmud and the New Testament!

You may be right, but this does not make me very hopeful, either.

-Joel

GODsubmitter

Cheer yourself up and see this movie

http//www.imdb.com/title/tt1456472/

or this one

http//www.imdb.com/title/tt0816672/

peace

MaverickMonotheist

Dude! Habemus Papam surprisingly looks like a good movie from the trailer! Nice! ;D

GODsubmitter

Enjoy it , and have a nice healthy laugh

peace

youssef4342

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, i do agree on some points,
I myself am currently working on God willing what would be a pdf file or a publication on this subject.
instead of answering the same questions over and over, it would be time to organize a volume of Q/a, refutations, concepts, commandments etc...

another thing is unity, yes i did bring up the notion of uniting... being scattered might have its benefits as well as its determents. It might be an idea to start forming chapters and even immigrate to common places.
I did bring up this point and even made a Facebook group
Community Buildings Projects for Muslims who want to follow the Quran Alone
https//www.facebook.com/groups/201443636624681/

Another thing would be SPREADING the word. Most of the muslims i talked to were seemingly oblivious about the notion of following the Quran alone.
I just made a page, that people could print out and give out.
Are you a Sunni or a Shia Muslim?
https//www.facebook.com/groups/310518545650653/doc/369903416378832/
(we could also just preach online on other muslim forms, from the free-minds/link)

we would definitely need wide refutations and explanations and arguments to questions, doctrines, commandments and the variants of understanding to, God willing, the incoming of seekers and influx of new believers.
(Following the Quran alone would need devotion and understanding of the Quran, a couple of people could invest their time, and do many others a favor.)

Again i am currently working on God willing what would be a pdf file or a publication on this subject.
May God almighty support us.

MaverickMonotheist

Peace Youssef,

I have admired your idealism and zeal on this thread and others. Maybe I'm starting to get old and jaded. /

those are all good things you mentioned. I personally see two things that need to be done before we, as a community, start verbally scrapping it out with "orthodox" muslims.

A (reasonably) united sense of community. If not in person, then through the internet. Not just "I agree with you" or "I can reasonably tolerate you even though we disagree about some things because this is the interwebs and I don't ever have to look you in the face." But REAL community. "How are you doing? I'm concerned about you, brother/sister. I'm truly happy for you because of _____!" type stuff. I believe the origin of the english word "community" is rooted in the roots for "common" (i.e., shared), and "munition" (weaponry). In other words, community is people banded together for mutual defense of one another. If this is ever going to be something beyond a forum, we need that. Don't ask me how we get it, I really don't know. (
A logical and comprehensive philosophical answer as to WHY resorting to the typical sunni arguments (all the rightly-guided scholars agree on this) and the shi'a arguments (we have the Ahl Al Bayt) fail. Debate over what the text says will only go so far against people who believe in the text, but do not believe in the inherent authority of that text as it is.
A methodology for a radical re-appropriation of the hadith and sunna based on a proper philosophical answer to the questions of tradition, reason, and authority and the place of the prophet's experience in modern times. Throw out the isnads, throw out designations like mutawaatir, give the narrations a more reasonable and justified position as a (distant) secondary source for theological speculation, so long as the Qur'an is neither abrogated nor violated.

But again, I'm getting older and more cynical about these kinds of things. I'm from neither a sunni or shi'a background, I was raised christian.

Just my $0.02.

Peace,
Joel

hope4

Selam all

Some good points raised. Here is my 2 cents

If we argreed on everything, we will not need to study. If we had the answers to everything, then there will be no debate and thus learning. The fact that we do not agree and go study and read and debate somemore and our views change from year to year with new evidence and new twists to the puzzle is what brings me back here. Lets be thankful of our differences and points of views as this is what will bring us closer to the truth and thus together. We are all students of life.

Peace to you all.

farida

While I believe that each of us will stand before God as individuals, I also believe that God did not intend for us to live in spiritual isolation from one another. Our path is one to be undertaken in community, and among brothers and sisters. This connection should, IMHO, go beyond discussing things on a thread and relating only to those that we agree most with.

Peace,
Joel

Salaam Joel
Before I joined this forum I used to find myself a loner, unable to accept those particular hadiths that made no sense and were not at all in conformity with the Qur'an, or even with common sense, but being a woman I was not accepted as an authority to talk about Islam. One day while discussing hadith I came accross this forum and I was so excited to finally meet like minded people. My bubble soon burst though as I felt that members here have no desire to get outside the box and quite a few spent their time discussing mainsteam Muslims rather then to bring harmony among the followers of the Qur'an. No steps have been taken to form any group outside this forum, I have seen many members getting frustrated and leaving this forum.

There is lot of emphasis in the Quran on the community/Ummah of believers, and the fact we are to pray in Jammat once a week is is one way of informing us the importance of interaction. Getting together to pray to God is very essential; so much so that we are to leave our work and business to get together for Jummah prayers. So community can only be formed when we see each other, face to face on a regular basiss; otherwise Allah would have not made this a requirement as we can all pray in our homes, on our own.

A methodology for a radical re-appropriation of the hadith and sunna based on a proper philosophical answer to the questions of tradition, reason, and authority and the place of the prophet's experience in modern times. Throw out the isnads, throw out designations like mutawaatir, give the narrations a more reasonable and justified position as a (distant) secondary source for theological speculation, so long as the Qur'an is neither abrogated nor violated.
Peace,
Joel

I agree; there are lots of hadiths, which makes so much sense and can lift us up so much. As the Prophet Mohammad lived while the Quran was being revealed he must have lived his life according to the teachings of the Quran and that is perhaps why some hadith reflect the teachings of the Quran in laymen's terms and can be easily applied to daily life.
I see on this forum so many members, who try to influece our understanding of the Qur'an, but when it comes to the Prophet they want to shut him out of our life as much as they can, so lets work on giving right authority to the rightful person who implemented this deen for us
Salaam/Peace

MaverickMonotheist

Selam all

Some good points raised. Here is my 2 cents

If we argreed on everything, we will not need to study. If we had the answers to everything, then there will be no debate and thus learning. The fact that we do not agree and go study and read and debate somemore and our views change from year to year with new evidence and new twists to the puzzle is what brings me back here. Lets be thankful of our differences and points of views as this is what will bring us closer to the truth and thus together. We are all students of life.

Peace to you all.

Peace hope4,

I agree. We need discussion, we even need debate. We need to ask questions of one another. But sometimes we do not appreciate our differences very well. Sometimes yes, but also sometimes no.

My bubble soon burst though as I felt that members here have no desire to get outside the box and quite a few spent their time discussing mainsteam Muslims rather then to bring harmony among the followers of the Qur'an. No steps have been taken to form any group outside this forum, I have seen many members getting frustrated and leaving this forum.

Yes. This has been part of my difficulty, part of which is my own fault in not stepping up to do my part. the first time I prayed in a long time after the good advice of some of the members, I made a deal with God. If God would save my marriage and make provisions for my family, I would follow him. I can honestly say that I have not been 100% committed to my vow, but I go back to it and recommit as often as I remember. God is the Most Gracious, Most Merciful. I have been tempted to choose another path for the sake of community. I've considered going back to church and try to find a non-trinitarian church. I have considered becoming a sunni. I have considered converting to reform judaism. But I dismiss these options fairly quickly and come back to the primacy of the Qur'an (despite having had a few rows here related to prior scripture ;D). the lack of community is what makes this hard, though I guess it ultimately comes down to my own resolve either to do without for the time being or start a community on my own.

So community can only be formed when we see each other, face to face on a regular basiss; otherwise Allah would have not made this a requirement as we can all pray in our homes, on our own.

Exactly.

I agree; there are lots of hadiths, which makes so much sense and can lift us up so much. As the Prophet Mohammad lived while the Quran was being revealed he must have lived his life according to the teachings of the Quran and that is perhaps why some hadith reflect the teachings of the Quran in laymen's terms and can be easily applied to daily life.

I don't buy the sunni/shi'a argument that the best interpreter of the Qur'an is the prophet, and so that is why we have to follow the sunna of the prophet and his companions. But I do believe that the sunna can be a non-binding starting point for learning how to pray, etc, for someone who does know better. Kind of like how some Christians are taught to learn to pray by being taught the Psalter and/or the Lord's Prayer, then eventually they learn to pray for themselves. And the hadith ccan best be understood as a reflection of the culture of the time. It makes for a good starting point for discussion.

I see on this forum so many members, who try to influece our understanding of the Qur'an, but when it comes to the Prophet they want to shut him out of our life as much as they can, so lets work on giving right authority to the rightful person who implemented this deen for us.

Or at least an understanding of his character. Why do some hadiths show the prophet allowing some people to pray like a sunni, and other hadith show the prophet allowing people to pray like a shi'a? Either the hadith are made up as polemics against others, or the prophet knew that some things simply don't matter as much as others. It makes for a good example of tolerance.

Peace,
Joel

Someone

Peace Joel, all

I can feel your concerns about forming a community, and I understand that it would give some people a sense of comfort and brotherhood. But on the other hand, I am somewhat reluctant to it for many reasons

1- All of the messengers in Al-quran were sent with a message to their own people, not to other people miles away. So from my point of view, we are more useful within our own respective communities where certainly there are many people in need of our help, advice and support.

2- I am worried that if a community is formed in the real world (outside the virtual world), it will face the same constraints as any political or religious group, regarding the leadership, the financial aspects, the internal fights for power? so much that this community will lose its focus on the main (righteous) goals and will end up as any of the many sects.

3- A community of doctors is useless if they stay together most of the time. They are more helpful to their respective communities when they are living within and sharing their troubles, problems and also their joys and successes, even if not everybody in the community understands biology and medicines.

4- Hero worship this is the easiest way out from internal torments for the majority of people; they easily prefer to follow a HERO that will solve (presumably) all of their problems at the condition of them following (mindlessly) his recommendations. Most are lazy to think by themselves even within this free-minds forum? following their preferred Super Hero.

5- With recent technologies, this world is more and more like a small village, where we can connect with anyone anywhere instantaneously. So we don?t need to travel thousands of miles away from home, to reach our ?temple? or ?community center? to ?worship? or to meet likeminded people. We are better to stay where we are needed the most within our families, neighbors, relatives?

?Think globally ? Act locally?

There are some other points that I would develop later, unless if the god wills. Meanwhile, I would like to give this reminder

1723-39
And your Lord decreed that you shall not serve except He, and do good to your parents. When one of them or both of them reach old age, do not say to them a word of disrespect nor shout at them, but say to them a kind saying.
And lower for them the wing of humility through mercy, and say "My Lord, have mercy upon them as they have raised me when I was young."
Your Lord is fully aware of what is in your souls. If you are good, then He is to the obedient a Forgiver.
And give the relative his due, and the poor, and the wayfarer; and do not waste excessively.
Those who waste excessively are brothers to the devils, and the devil was to his Lord a rejecter.
And if you turn away from them to seek a mercy from your Lord which you desire, then say to them a gentle saying.
And do not make your hand stingy by holding it to your neck, nor shall you lay it fully open so you become in despair and regret.
Your Lord lays out openly the provision for whom He wishes, and He is able to do so. He is Expert and Seer over His servants.
And do not kill your children out of concern of poverty; We shall provide for you and them. The killing of them was a big mistake.
And do not come near adultery, for it is lewdness and an evil path.
And do not take a life, for God has made this forbidden, except in the course of justice. And whoever is killed innocently, then We have given his heir authority, so let him not transgress in the taking of a life, for He will be given victory.
And do not come near the money of the orphan, except for that which is best, until he reaches his independence. And fulfill the pledge, for the pledge brings great responsibility.
And give full measure when you deal, and weigh with a balance that is straight. That is good and better in the end.
And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for.
And do not walk in the land arrogantly, for you will not penetrate the earth, nor will you reach the mountains in height.
All of this is bad, and disliked by your Lord.
That is from what your Lord has inspired to you of the wisdom. And do not make with God another god, or you will be cast into Hell, blameworthy and regretting.

I think that the real work have to be done locally for each one of us, within our own respective communities. Certainly, being in contact with other likeminded people is of great support and provides some fresh air for all of us. peace

SarahY

Just a little blabber..

How do you define unity? Or Problems?

There are numerous problems in all communities, being an online community or even a community that is very much stagnant not many followers or supporters. It?s kinda difficult to have cohesion.

Youssef There are resources out there that openly support quran alone, there are also resources which support and challenge common arguments. Material exists. But good on you for being proactive, it?ll be interesting to see what approach and methods you use.

Joel

A methodology for a radical re-appropriation of the hadith and sunna based on a proper philosophical answer to the questions of tradition, reason, and authority and the place of the prophet's experience in modern times. Throw out the isnads, throw out designations like mutawaatir, give the narrations a more reasonable and justified position as a (distant) secondary source for theological speculation, so long as the Qur'an is neither abrogated nor violated.

your idea about that. well many sunni (scholars) have considered re-analysis of hadith. Isnad places a purpose in knowing the time and place of the hadith revelation. It lets you know how different factions influenced the spread o fa particular hadith, whether through falsehood, oral tales, or a particular regional practise, etc. Like you said earlier, hadith isn?t a simple corpus.

From what i have understood from you i think your right that part of peoples problems is their rejection for what they don?t know.

Another thought

There is a hadith collection from a sahifa known as the medina constitution. This community you might say is peculiar. It was united by muslim leadership with various faiths. How is it that a community of multi faith was united yet, people of quran-alone ideologies don?t unite.

There?s lots of ignorance in the community and many ?free-thinkers? it makes you wonder, would you be comfortable with all those people in your community association?

How can a community be controlled by people who do things in solitude? Or own free thought?

To be fair, not all people are purely or simply going by free thought, others follow a verifiable system but not many people take studies seriously or with much rationality

peace

farida

This has been part of my difficulty, part of which is my own fault in not stepping up to do my part. .....the lack of community is what makes this hard, though I guess it ultimately comes down to my own resolve either to do without for the time being or start a community on my own.

Peace,
Joel

Salaam Joel and everyone

Reading the Qur?an we can clearly see that there was never a united community around any Prophet. Take for instance Prophet Musa, who returns from receiving the tablets only to find his people busy worshipping the golden calf. The Qur?an repeatedly reminds prophet Mohammad of the presence of Munafiq among his Ummah. These Munafiqeen were not the same as the ordinary hypocrites in any society. These Munafiqeen were in fact involved in a conspiracy against the prophet pretending to be followers of Allah and Hs messenger.

They learned the Quran very well to impress the people with their eloquence. It appears they even built a mosque, with the aim to sow discord among the people. We have been warned in the Quran not to be deluded by such actions but to learn to recognize the true believers, namely those who do not make excuses to exempt themselves from fighting in the cause of Allah.
Seeing that there were Munafaqeen who managed to mingle easily even with the campanions of the Prophet what is to stop them from doing the same in this day and age of internet, where they needn?t even reveal their real names or faces ???

I don't buy the sunni/shi'a argument that the best interpreter of the Qur'an is the prophet, and so that is why we have to follow the sunna of the prophet and his companions. But I do believe that the sunna can be a non-binding starting point for learning how to pray, etc, for someone who does know better. ...

Whilst Hadith say that the Prophet was the best interpretator of the Qur?an, but Qur'an says to us to pay heed and use our faculties to understand it, and some hadith claim that the Prophet asked people to give their understanding of the Quran and accepted each ones point of view as valid ways of interpreting the Qur?an.

Why do some hadiths show the prophet allowing some people to pray like a sunni, and other hadith show the prophet allowing people to pray like a shi'a? Either the hadith are made up as polemics against others, or the prophet knew that some things simply don't matter as much as others. It makes for a good example of tolerance.

However I feel that there are some core things which were implemented during the time of the prophet, which included how to do prayers in congregation (which you won?t find in hadith) where all stood together, bowed and did sujud simultaneously. The rest was left up to individuals and that is why you would often notice people displaying different ways of hodling their hands etc in congregation and between Shia and Sunni. Despite these differences all apply the same basic pattern of standing together, bowing and doing sujud.

Then there were the four Imams who did their own research and had their own followers who relied on that research for their practices instead of doing their own studies. Then, probably in order to unite the divided followers of these four imams, hadith was introduced, but by that time it was already too late. Yet it happened that way, as it was the plan of Allah not to make hadith/Sunnah as a second source of our Deen, but as food for thought for us to interpret using the faculties of our minds.

I believe we must keep on discussing on this forum, engaging each other with an open mind. If we apply the guidance from the Quran we would be able to separate between those who are verily in search of the truth and others who are munafiqeen. Let us always remember that the Quran is a tool for filtering out the arogant, from the believers, those who approach it with humility, truly seeking God?s guidance. The latter will be guided to the right path, whereas the arrogant will only be misguided by God?s words.

This much for the online community, but for our real life community we need to call those in our areas to come together for Jummah prayers to ensure that we meet face to face, at least once a week, and insh?Allah, from there we could proceed further.
Peace

youssef4342

Peace back to you guys
and thank you Joel for replying back.
May i point out that we would need a group consensus on topics, We are to unit and not differentiate (3103)...
Yes we have our differences, but we would need to unit under the banner of wanting to follow the Quran alone.

A house/kingdom/city divided against itself will not last ~ Matthew 1225

Also, i would again stress on spreading the message, many muslims don't even know about the notion of following the Quran alone.

Yes there are lots of materials out there about Quran Alone, we would need to organize that into one volume etc.
I am kind of working on that, there are lots of lots of topics, refutations, Contradictions between Hadith vs Quran, sunni vs shia doctrines, previous scripture perspective.
I wish i had the finances, the time, and the stability. I don't have a job, but i'm looking for one, and Even if i get a job, my time would be consumed. I've been seemingly working in hostile places, not knowing what would come for tomorrow. I'm kind of tired.
May God Almighty support us and grant us success.

Student_of_Allah

Shalom Aleikhem,

I learn from The Book, I discuss with other fellow muslims. Sometimes, my ideas need changing in the light of new evidence. Sometimes I change someone elses ideas. Sometime, we do not agree at all. Regardless of all that, I do not feel disconnected. Why do you feel that way ?

I mean, I agree that Qur'an aloners are not like other organized religion's followers. We do not have like the 2 major school of thoughts or anything like that. My question is, why should we have that ? Why do you want all of us to come to consensus for the sake of coming to consensus ? What necessitates that ?

Probably, we both understand unity differently. For me, unity does not require consensus of "what is true". Specially, when life is a test for all of us. I think of all of us in the community as scientists investigating to seek the truth, we are united, but we do not necessarily agree with each other on every detail. You are in your lab approaching the problem by the best of your ability, and me in my lab doing the same.

Peace
------------ Student of Allah

youssef4342

Peace be upon you as well,

being united would be better than divided.
This would be a reason why we should unit as a group.
Yes we would have our differences, but we could unit under the banner of wanting to follow the Quran alone.
May God Almighty support & unity us.