Suaib times
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We are supposed to take this seriously?
Where is Abdun Nur's proof that the Arabic language was so damaged and so changed as to come to the translation below? What inerrant grammar guide and definitions is he using? Or is he just making things up to suit his own created theology?
Abdun Nur's Sura 1
11 This is the timeless sign conveying the knowledge from the One, who is not a deity for worship and adoration. About the abundant and effortless state of life that mankind cannot conceive by themselves, from your sustainer and maintainer. The greatest mercy from the One.
12 The decree for all width and breadth of land, on account of the One, who is not a deity for worship and adoration. One rearing, fostering, nourishing and accomplishing all created beings, capable of acquiring knowledge.
13 The abundant and effortless state of life, that mankind cannot conceive of by themselves, from your sustainer and maintainer. The greatest mercy from One-
14 which is with you at all times, for you to follow.
15 Be aware, we do not want you to be servants and worshippers; therefore you shall keep yourself clear of this pain in future.
16 You must not break and demolish the path, which is original and most straight, undeviating and unceasing.
17 The original and straight path is pleasant and delightful on which, I make life easy. I have set a banner and a standard for you, to avoid irreparable damage to yourselves. Who become angry and revengeful with this path, will be greatly confounded and perplexed; even unable to see the right course.
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Good.
Why though, as expressed by your other posts on this forum, do you accept some concepts based on the traditional translations ?-
Such as? Are those recent or old posts? I think I joined in 2002 or something.
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Before I read your response on my question 1 above, I can give a general answer
We are all on a journey towards improved understanding, including me. Allah knows where I'm wrong and where I'm ok. Personally I'm continuously developing my understanding as I get more views and understandings to consider. I definitely do not claim that whatever I give shine to uphold is the correct understanding, or even the understanding that I claim as mine. There are maaany things I wonder about and have questions on and just simply cannot take a stand on yet, simply because there are several points, all seeming to make sense, that do not go together. I'm at the beginning of my journey into the arabic language... and I have no choice but to work myself through the translations I come across. I do not advocate the traditional translations, but if I at some point have no alternative, then whet should I do? I have to start somewhere. But I'm keenly interested in all those articles that discuss translations of the various concepts found in the quran. Like SOL says... we have to work ourselves up from state to state. This goes for all of us. You can't skip stages in your development.. you have to go thru it all... that's how you learn and get a strong foundation for your latest understanding.
As for Abdunur's quran translation that Kaioken hinted me at... I find it very hard to follow since he has only given his understanding of the whole ayats... and doesn't show how he has deduced his interpretation in connection to the arabic words. If one cannot follow how he reached his conclusion, then one can not subscribe to it, simply because it would just be a leap of faith... blind. But I would love to know he has come to his conclusions of the meaning of the arabic words. Showing this would be a service to others coz then they can build further on this... and verify it, as commanded by Allah.
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- Before I read your response on my question 1 above, I can give a general answer
We are all on a journey towards improved understanding, including me. Allah knows where I'm wrong and where I'm ok. Personally I'm continuously developing my understanding as I get more views and understandings to consider. I definitely do not claim that whatever I give shine to uphold is the correct understanding, or even the understanding that I claim as mine. There are maaany things I wonder about and have questions on and just simply cannot take a stand on yet, simply because there are several points, all seeming to make sense, that do not go together. I'm at the beginning of my journey into the arabic language... and I have no choice but to work myself through the translations I come across. I do not advocate the traditional translations, but if I at some point have no alternative, then whet should I do? I have to start somewhere. But I'm keenly interested in all those articles that discuss translations of the various concepts found in the quran. Like SOL says... we have to work ourselves up from state to state. This goes for all of us. You can't skip stages in your development.. you have to go thru it all... that's how you learn and get a strong foundation for your latest understanding.
Absolutely great. I agree.
As for Abdunur's quran translation that Kaioken hinted me at... I find it very hard to follow since he has only given his understanding of the whole ayats... and doesn't show how he has deduced his interpretation in connection to the arabic words. If one cannot follow how he reached his conclusion, then one can not subscribe to it, simply because it would just be a leap of faith... blind. But I would love to know he has come to his conclusions of the meaning of the arabic words. Showing this would be a service to others coz then they can build further on this... and verify it, as commanded by Allah.
Actually, it is Dr. Badar that is in charge of the translation. The main difference between his translation and the traditional ones is that he uses the grammar and lexicon books that were, at the time of the prophet Muhammad. You can find the names somewhere in the website.
Salaam!
- Before I read your response on my question 1 above, I can give a general answer
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On the link Kaio posted to me, I read about the "persian pollution" by this chap Sibby. As far as grammars and lexicons are concerned I was only able to find that he/they/SOL are praising Lane. But even Project Root List is based on Lane, so it's not such a radical difference from what many people on this forum are already using to study the quran. Apart from Lane (and indirectly and unmentioned those that Lane are based on) I have not found any names of grammars or lexicons, apart from those in the discussion of Sibby the Persian. But the SOL translation is still radically different from anything I have seen before, traditional or "koranist" or whatever.
It would just be very interesting to know more about the mechanics and sources of the SOL translation.
peace
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On the link Kaio posted to me, I read about the "persian pollution" by this chap Sibby. As far as grammars and lexicons are concerned I was only able to find that he/they/SOL are praising Lane. But even Project Root List is based on Lane, so it's not such a radical difference from what many people on this forum are already using to study the quran. Apart from Lane (and indirectly and unmentioned those that Lane are based on) I have not found any names of grammars or lexicons, apart from those in the discussion of Sibby the Persian. But the SOL translation is still radically different from anything I have seen before, traditional or "koranist" or whatever.
It would just be very interesting to know more about the mechanics and sources of the SOL translation.
peace
You can send a message to Abdun Nur asking him about that but don't expect a reply anytime soon since he's very busy thus rarely logs in on this forum.
And you said to not follow Abdun Nur's translations without confirming because it would be blind faith,
then what about all other translations? I don't know arabic and doubt I will ever learn it, even if I wouldn't be able to learn the arabic used on Muhammad's time.I read many translations, and agree with what is most reasonable to me.
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You can send a message to Abdun Nur asking him about that but don't expect a reply anytime soon since he's very busy thus rarely logs in on this forum.
And you said to not follow Abdun Nur's translations without confirming because it would be blind faith,
then what about all other translations? I don't know arabic and doubt I will ever learn it, even if I wouldn't be able to learn the arabic used on Muhammad's time.I read many translations, and agree with what is most reasonable to me.
You are right... if we don't know arabic then it would be equally blind faith regardless of what translation one follows.
The only thing I reacted at when reading SOL translation was that it seems the language has been re-invented. It seems they have totally new meanings for the words. I would be amazed if all this agrees with Lane and the grammars. But I'm no expert. I mean, you cannot just invent a new grammar. There has to be some strong and consistent reasons for everything you do. I do know some arabic, although just the basics, but the SOL translations made no sense to me. For example, 'maliki' is generally know as 'king' while SOL renders it 'what is it to you'.... and that's starkly different. Also, if we compare the traditional/sunni rendering of the arabic vs the koranist we see some totally different meanings in the translations... but they all use the same lexicons and grammars.... it is just a choice of words when an arabic word can mean several things. We have to choose what suits the context. Also the grammar has to make sense.
Anyhow, let's see what happens to the SOL translation. We should keep all options open and follow the best.
Peace
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elektro
I still can't get it what is "salat" means -\
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Ask Allah to show you to the truth, and to let you be able to handle the truth.
Also, the best we can do is to read all articles we can find on salat/solaa and do our own research with the help of resources like Project Root List. There are several articles on what Salat is and is not. We need to go thru them all... ask Allah for guidance and be patient.
I think it may be more difficult than we think to approach a topic from scratch. We always have many assumptions and old ideas we have been taught. The topics in the quran are also, it seems to me, connected to each other, so if we are able to break free from one faulty understanding, there might be some other topic becoming an obstacle for us making it difficult to move towards a pure understanding since we are unconsciously stuck in assumptions about that topic.
We should however have the intention in the heart to find the real meanings... to advance.
Peace
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Ask Allah to show you to the truth, and to let you be able to handle the truth.
Also, the best we can do is to read all articles we can find on salat/solaa and do our own research with the help of resources like Project Root List. There are several articles on what Salat is and is not. We need to go thru them all... ask Allah for guidance and be patient.
I think it may be more difficult than we think to approach a topic from scratch. We always have many assumptions and old ideas we have been taught. The topics in the quran are also, it seems to me, connected to each other, so if we are able to break free from one faulty understanding, there might be some other topic becoming an obstacle for us making it difficult to move towards a pure understanding since we are unconsciously stuck in assumptions about that topic.
We should however have the intention in the heart to find the real meanings... to advance.
Peace
I'm gonna try to fast ( There's likely I will fail though ) for 40 days this year's hottest month.
I will ask a question and I hope I get answered ) -
I read many translations, and agree with what is most reasonable to me.
What is "reasonable" to a person is not a Quranic criteria for Judging what to follow. Some people find a trinitarian God reasonable, some people find atheism reasonable, some people find UFO's and ghosts reasonable. They are all nothing more than following personal opinions and personal desire.
We are taught in the Quran that many people who acknowledged God rejected messengers because the idea of new messengers wasn't reasonable in their personal view. That others rejected the idea of being Resurrected because it wasn't reasonable in their personal view. Still others rejected applying and upholding Quranic teachings on prayer, repentance, fasting, ablution, charity and the nature of God, etc because they don't understand or it's not "reasonable" in their personal view.
God teaches in the Quran to follow The Truth, even when we don't like it or it doesn't seem "reasonable" from our perspective or limited understanding. Conjecture, guesswork and personal opinions are no substitutes for the Truth.
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What is "reasonable" to a person is not a Quranic criteria for Judging what to follow. Some people find a trinitarian God reasonable, some people find atheism reasonable, some people find UFO's and ghosts reasonable. They are all nothing more than following personal opinions and personal desire.
We are taught in the Quran that many people who acknowledged God rejected messengers because the idea of new messengers wasn't reasonable in their personal view. That others rejected the idea of being Resurrected because it wasn't reasonable in their personal view. Still others rejected applying and upholding Quranic teachings on prayer, repentance, fasting, ablution, charity and the nature of God, etc because they don't understand or it's not "reasonable" in their personal view.
God teaches in the Quran to follow The Truth, even when we don't like it or it doesn't seem "reasonable" from our perspective or limited understanding. Conjecture, guesswork and personal opinions are no substitutes for the Truth.
Yeah and that is very subjective, thus totally matters to the person reason what will he/she believe to be the truth
Also, salat and other words being rituals are simply your opinion.
So what people believe to be the Truth can be different from what you think the Truth is.
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The Truth is what God says it is and He explains it and gives all the examples necessary for salvation in the Quran. We only need to follow what He says in it, the examples given in it and what He describes to us in it.
What proof have you got that God exists?
Again, that is only your belief. It doesn't make it truth.
I believe Allah is the creator, but that's just my belief, it's not obvious, most things aren't.
Also there are many interpretations of the Quran, who are you too chose which one is correct? -
What is "reasonable" to a person is not a Quranic criteria for Judging what to follow. Some people find a trinitarian God reasonable, some people find atheism reasonable, some people find UFO's and ghosts reasonable. They are all nothing more than following personal opinions and personal desire.
We are taught in the Quran that many people who acknowledged God rejected messengers because the idea of new messengers wasn't reasonable in their personal view. That others rejected the idea of being Resurrected because it wasn't reasonable in their personal view. Still others rejected applying and upholding Quranic teachings on prayer, repentance, fasting, ablution, charity and the nature of God, etc because they don't understand or it's not "reasonable" in their personal view.
God teaches in the Quran to follow The Truth, even when we don't like it or it doesn't seem "reasonable" from our perspective or limited understanding. Conjecture, guesswork and personal opinions are no substitutes for the Truth.
yeah
Dear Mr.Q,
= Sad-Lam-Waw = prayer, supplication, petition, oration, eulogy, benediction, commendation, blessing, honour, magnifiy, bring forth, follow closely, walk/follow behind closely, to remain attached.
I want to ask you a question, which one of this translation you choose and why?
Best Regards.
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What proof have you got that God exists?
Again, that is only your belief. It doesn't make it truth.
I believe Allah is the creator, but that's just my belief, it's not obvious, most things aren't.
Also there are many interpretations of the Quran, who are you too chose which one is correct?First, lets get the semantics and word games out of the way. Allah=God=Most Gracious=Almighty=Most Wise etc. They are all Names of Him.
You "believe" God is the Creator? Based on what? Don't you condemn "blind faith"? You follow and promote SOL as truth while proclaiming no knowledge of Arabic, proclaiming ALL translations are wildly wrong and proclaiming Abdun Nur's incompleted "translation" as true and accurate. How is all this simply not blind faith, not based on evidence, but on person opinion?
I don't believe in God on just faith. (very briefly) I believe in Him because of rational and logical deductions based on evidence shown in all of creation. The universe, earth, plants, animals, humans, physics, chemistry, biology, micobiology, the structure of cells and DNA all clearly show indisputable evidence of Intelligent Design, Purpose and Planning. Random, purposeless chance cannot account for it, nor produce it, thus Intelligent Design denotes and necessitates an Intelligent Designer capable of doing such things. That would be God.
As for translations, you can either learn Arabic yourself or use Quranic principles of mutual consultation, asking questions, verification, consistency, no contradictions and asking the experts and using reason and logic. I personally comparatively study/have access to 7 different translations, with many more available if needed and have access to sites like this if I have any doubt or questions. I also have access to people who can read Arabic if I need them.
Most translations are very similar with some "disputed" understandings or applications. In those limited cases, use more Quranic principles, read all the views, verify and critically examine their positions and evidence, let the Quran explain itself consistantly, choose the best and put your trust in God but remain open to new understandings/views. God is the Teacher of the Quran and people can only come to understand certain things when/if He wills it.
That's really it. We are accountable for what we choose to follow and for our efforts in learning His message.
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yeah
Dear Mr.Q,
= Sad-Lam-Waw = prayer, supplication, petition, oration, eulogy, benediction, commendation, blessing, honour, magnifiy, bring forth, follow closely, walk/follow behind closely, to remain attached.
I want to ask you a question, which one of this translation you choose and why?
Best Regards.
Trick question? You would choose the best use the same way as everything else; context, use in the Quran, examples from Quran and consistency of meaning preventing contradictions.
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First, lets get the semantics and word games out of the way. Allah=God=Most Gracious=Almighty=Most Wise etc. They are all Names of Him.
You "believe" God is the Creator? Based on what? Don't you condemn "blind faith"? You follow and promote SOL as truth while proclaiming no knowledge of Arabic, proclaiming ALL translations are wildly wrong and proclaiming Abdun Nur's incompleted "translation" as true and accurate. How is all this simply not blind faith, not based on evidence, but on person opinion?
I don't believe in God on just faith. (very briefly) I believe in Him because of rational and logical deductions based on evidence shown in all of creation. The universe, earth, plants, animals, humans, physics, chemistry, biology, micobiology, the structure of cells and DNA all clearly show indisputable evidence of Intelligent Design, Purpose and Planning. Random, purposeless chance cannot account for it, nor produce it, thus Intelligent Design denotes and necessitates an Intelligent Designer capable of doing such things. That would be God.
As for translations, you can either learn Arabic yourself or use Quranic principles of mutual consultation, asking questions, verification, consistency, no contradictions and asking the experts and using reason and logic. I personally comparatively study/have access to 7 different translations, with many more available if needed and have access to sites like this if I have any doubt or questions. I also have access to people who can read Arabic if I need them.
Most translations are very similar with some "disputed" understandings or applications. In those limited cases, use more Quranic principles, read all the views, verify and critically examine their positions and evidence, let the Quran explain itself consistantly, choose the best and put your trust in God but remain open to new understandings/views. God is the Teacher of the Quran and people can only come to understand certain things when/if He wills it.
That's really it. We are accountable for what we choose to follow and for our efforts in learning His message.
Belief is not faith
What makes people experts?
In my opinion Abdun Nur and Badar Kanwar are the best experts alive.You believe in translations that are so obviously heavily affected by hadiths even if done unintentionally by Quran alone muslims, how is that also not your person opinion?
I always read translations from Sahih International, Shakir, Dr. Ghali, Muhsin Khan, Free minds, Rashad Khalifa, Yusuf Ali etc... If possible, I read Badar Kanwar's translations and if also possible Aidid Safar's
"I don't believe in God on just faith. (very briefly) I believe in Him because of rational and logical deductions based on evidence shown in all of creation."
That's what I do to, with other evidence too, but rational and logical thought is also subjective. It doesn't make your belief da bast beeleef evah just because YOU can agree with it
About the bold, that's exactly what I do ( just replace God with Allah ) . Didn't I always imply this?
Even I have a friend (lordfox) who knows arabic, and did ask other people before I knew him, among the others things you mentioned -
What makes people experts?
In my opinion Abdun Nur and Badar Kanwar are the best experts alive.You believe in translations that are so obviously heavily affected by hadiths even if done unintentionally by Quran alone muslims, how is that also not your person opinion?
Evidence for such claims? Please present.
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Evidence for such claims? Please present.
For the first one? Didn't I say that was my opinion? It means it make sense to me. It looks reasonable to me. It's subjective isn't it? Just like how you believe other people to be experts.
About the second one, have you ever heard about common sense?
Do you know how ridiculous it is to suggest that translations aren't heavily affected by hadiths?
What are you gonna say next, evidence for the sky being blue?
Please never reply to me again, never, unless you stop with this nonsense.Oh so it says he is posting here again, I guess I'll just add him to my ignore list, he annoyed me enough. Waste of my time tsch
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About the second one, have you ever heard about common sense?
Do you know how ridiculous it is to suggest that translations aren't heavily affected by hadiths?
What are you gonna say next, evidence for the sky being blue?
Please never reply to me again, never, unless you stop with this nonsense.It is you making the claim that all translations except for Abdun Nur's are corrupt and wrong. If you are making the hadithic corruption claim, to the vast extent of discarding all translations, save for SOL's, then you need to provide the evidence for such a claim.
The other problem is you are claiming all translations are completely corrupt and wrong but the very Quranic principles I said I use, and you said you do too, all come from those same corrupt and wrong translations. How do you pick and choose what you follow from translations based on your own criteria for choosing?