A Few Questions for S.O.L. Adherents

Kaiokenred

Where did lordfox's comment replying to Mr.Q go?

Bigmo

Where did lordfox's comment replying to Mr.Q go?

I guess things were getting personal so someone deleted both their post.

Mr_Q

None of my posts have been deleted. Why would they be? I am simply using the Quran to support my view without insults and what not while fox's last post, especially, was just a juvenile rant of petty insults. No harm done to me of course. That stuff doesn't bother me but maybe he calmed down and thought better of himself and deleted it himself or maybe one of the mods removed it for obvious reasons. Either way, it doesn't matter to me.

From the forum rules;

2] Please note that this forum is primarily dedicated to God and the study and understanding of His Scripture (The Quran). Thus, mocking/ridiculing/insulting God and/or the Quran, and/or not being able to back-up claims against the Quran with specifics may result in deletion of such posts and/or removal of topic and/or disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.

3] Respect other users of the forum. Language and/or material of vulgarity, obscenity, harassment, profanity or insulting nature, whether it is direct or suggested, will NOT be tolerated. Any messages containing such language or material will be moved to the trash section or deleted, without notice and may result in disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.

Kaiokenred

If he deleted it himself it would say so here

Zulf

Peace Kaio,

Yeah but shouldn't you look at the original meaning of god?
Also god for worship was first used by the Queen of Babylon.
God is an idol and will stay an idol.

Yes that helps of course... but no-one can impose a meaning into my mind of a word. To the person using the word, it will mean exactly what he/she thinks it means.... the problem arises when you communicate with others. The message must come first, otherwise communication is useless... so as long as the meaning is clear it's ok.

If Mr. A chats with Ms. B about Allah, the creator of all... but no nothing about arabic, but both are still blessed by Allah with a great understanding of things... and they use the word 'God' in lack of any other word, then it will not become an idol. Only what they think when they say 'God' decides if it is an idol or not. No?

Allah literally means who is not god ( deity for worship and adoration )

Assuming this is correct, I mean considering the shaddas and what not, Allah can correctly be a compaction of alladhi la ilah, then that's great. I love this way of seeing it myself. But I cannot verify it's soundness "grammatically"... but I do love the concept!

Kaiokenred

Peace Kaio,

Yes that helps of course... but no-one can impose a meaning into my mind of a word. To the person using the word, it will mean exactly what he/she thinks it means.... the problem arises when you communicate with others. The message must come first, otherwise communication is useless... so as long as the meaning is clear it's ok.

If Mr. A chats with Ms. B about Allah, the creator of all... but no nothing about arabic, but both are still blessed by Allah with a great understanding of things... and they use the word 'God' in lack of any other word, then it will not become an idol. Only what they think when they say 'God' decides if it is an idol or not. No?

Assuming this is correct, I mean considering the shaddas and what not, Allah can correctly be a compaction of alladhi la ilah, then that's great. I love this way of seeing it myself. But I cannot verify it's soundness "grammatically"... but I do love the concept!

Peace Zulf

God means " that which is invoked "
It only makes sense that Allah means " Not God "

No matter what meaning you or another individual give to the word God, it's not official or true.
I used to think like you once though, that Allah was like Abdun Nur described him but could still be called god, but today I read an old post (not that old) from Abdun Nur which he explains why Allah shouldn't be called a god

p.s You call me Kaio, that brings me back... my old runescape friends used to call me so ( Ah the nostalgia

Zulf

Peace lordfox

Most linguists agree that the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European form * hu-t?-m was based on the root * hau(&#601-, which meant either "to call" or "to invoke".

The literal definition of a God is an idol that is worshiped, invoked and called upon. Furthermore, the definition of the Arabic word 'ilah' is "an object of worship".

I understand. What about the case when you have people discussing life, and the only word they have in their vocabulary is 'God', but they don't use it in the sense of an external recipient of worship.... then how would it be? I don't think that only those who have 'Allah' in their vocabulary are the ones able to stay away from idol worship. It wouldn't make sense that it is language determining if we take something as an idol or not... it is rather our inner understanding.... our heart. I think it is more important what we actually mean when using a word.. and not the literal, historical and linguistic definition. Language is a tool of expression and language is many times limited.

It is your choice to say that your creator is an 'ilah' while it calls itself 'Allah' (allathee LA ILAH - who is NOT God), but perhaps you know better than it.

Yea perhaps I do )

Although I don't call Allah by ilah.

You can persist in trying to support your views falsely, I could care less, we will all face the creator one day. Let us not waste any more time and space on the server of free-minds by repeating the same things over and over again.

So can we all.

But rather I'm exploring viewpoints, that's all. I'm not debating and not trying to convince or defend anything. I totally understand your viewpoint about 'God', 'ilah', 'Allah', and do not need further repetition of it, but I would just like discuss topics in an effort to understand things further, like your thoughts on 'invoking'. I think fora are good for exchanging ideas.

By all means, let's not waste more time... but I'd still like your input on the invoke thing I mentioned above.
Basically I'm trying to understand how you think about 'addressing' Allah. Like for example if you wish to gain a better understanding on a certain surah of the quran, or if you would like to gain more patience... then how would you express this to Allah. Would you? Most people would say they would 'pray' to Allah by using words expressing their desire.... but let's not go there, I know what has been said before about 'pray/prayer' etc. I'm wondering if you entertain this idea of "addessing" Allah, or whether you do nothing since Allah already knows all (omniscient D). Would you stop at just realizing your desire and trust Allah to follow up on it. I just want to see your ideas about this.

Remember, this is just a friendly exchange of ideas. If you do not wish to elaborate on this, or you think it has already been answered somewhere else at some other point in time... then I'll not bother you anymore.

The reason is that there are a lot of cheerleaders, who, without thinking, reject a view because it is alien to them, and they are too attached to their culture, religion and ego to put it to the test for a second. These same babblers annoy and say nothing intelligent, and so I prefer to discuss calmly with one.

Fair enough

Zulf

Peace Kaio

God means " that which is invoked "
It only makes sense that Allah means " Not God "

Alright.

You can also check my recent post to lordfox on this. If you like you can respond as well. Like I have mentioned to you, him and others... I'm interested in expanding my views and understanding, not to promote or defend any current view of mine.

No matter what meaning you or another individual give to the word God, it's not official or true.

Sure, it might not be official.... but officiality has nothing to do with truth.

The true meaning is the meaning given by the user, regardless of how wrong it is linguistically. This works as long as the user doesn't talk to others who have a different understanding of the word.

I used to think like you once though, that Allah was like Abdun Nur described him but could still be called god, but today I read an old post (not that old) from Abdun Nur which he explains why Allah shouldn't be called a god

I see your point. I too feel Allah is better to use than God, but there can be many different reasons for that buried in my psychology that I don't see. It could have to do with historical associations and experiences with those two words.

Basically I was thinking of how people who do not have the word Allah in their vocab would denote Allah in spoken or written language.

Could you pm me that post, or send a link?

p.s You call me Kaio, that brings me back... my old runescape friends used to call me so Ah the nostalgia

sun

Mr_Q

God means " that which is invoked "
It only makes sense that Allah means " Not God "

No matter what meaning you or another individual give to the word God, it's not official or true.
I used to think like you once though, that Allah was like Abdun Nur described him but could still be called god, but today I read an old post (not that old) from Abdun Nur which he explains why Allah shouldn't be called a god

Where did you get the bolded definitions above?

Lets assume your first definition is accurate, then that which is "invoked", "implored" and "called upon" is a "god". (Those 3 terms are synonymous) Also then, are you saying you do not call on Allah for anything? You do not ask Him for help? Forgiveness? Guidance? Would you doing so make Him a god according to your definition?

And your Lord said "Call on Me and I will respond to you." Surely, those who are too arrogant to serve Me, they will enter Hell, forcibly. (4060)

It was then that Zachariah called on his Lord, he said "My Lord, grant me from You a good progeny, You are hearer of the prayers." (33

"No, it is Him alone you will call on; and He will remove that which you called Him for, if He wills; and you will forget what you set-up."
And We have sent others to nations before you. We then took them with adversity and hardship, perhaps they would implore. If only they had implored when Our punishment came to them; but their hearts hardened, and the devil adorned for them what they used to do.
(641,42,43)

Say "Shall we call upon other than God what cannot benefit us or harm us, and we turn back on our heels after God Has guided us?" This is like the one whom the devils have managed to mislead on earth, he is confused, having friends who call him to the guidance "Come to us!" Say "The guidance is God's guidance, and we have been ordered to surrender to the Lord of the worlds." (671)

You called on help from your Lord and He answered you "I will provide you with one thousand Angels as defenders." (89)

And if any adversity inflicts mankind, then he calls upon Us on his side or sitting or standing. But when We remove his adversity from him, he goes on as if he never called upon Us to an adversity which touched him! It is such that what the carefree do was made to appear good to them. (1012)

And Noah called on his Lord, and he said "My Lord, my son is from my family, and your promise is the truth, and you are the Wisest of all Judges." (1145)

He said "My Lord, my bones have gone frail, and my hair has turned white, and I have never been mischievous in calling to You my Lord." (194)

And Job when he called his Lord "I have been inflicted with harm, and you are the Most Merciful!" (2183)

And Zachariah when he called out to his Lord "My Lord, do not leave me without an heir, and You are the best inheritor." So We responded to him, and We granted him John, and We cured his wife. They used to hasten to do good, and they would call to Us in joy and in fear. And to Us they were reverent. (2189,90)

He said "He has wronged you by asking to combine your sheep with his. And most who combine their properties take advantage of one another, except those who believe and do good works, and these are so few." And David guessed that We had tested him, so he implored his Lord for forgiveness, and fell down kneeling, and repented. (3824)

And when the human being is afflicted with adversity, he implores his Lord, sincerely devoted to Him. But then, when He grants him a blessing from Him, he forgets his previous imploring, and sets up equals with God, in order to mislead others from His path. Say "Enjoy your disbelief for a while; for you are of the dwellers of the Fire." (398 )

So when the human is touched by adversity, he implores Us, then when We bestow a blessing upon him, he says "I attained this because of knowledge I had!" Indeed, it is a test, but most of them do not know. (3949)

"We used to implore Him; He is the Most Kind, Most Merciful." (522

There are so many other examples given in the Quran of people verbally calling on God, imploring Him, invoking His blessings and protections so what's wrong with doing that?

We have cited for the people every kind of example in this Quran, that they may take heed. (3927)

Allah calls Himself a god in the Quran.

And He is the One who is a god in the heaven and a god on earth. And He is the Wise, the Knowledgeable. (4384)
Your god is Allah; whom there is no god but He. His knowledge encompasses all things. (209
And Allah said "Do not take-up two gods, there is only One god, so it is Me that you shall reverence." (1651)

Kaiokenred