Prayer Direction
-
Selam ,
Wow! Truly fantastic! Something so SO well explained and agrees with me 100%. However I am slightly cautious. Who wrote this article? Has it been double checked for its correctness? The logic seems to fit very well... but are the translations correct. If someone can verify it, I will have my answer . Wow it's so nice to know my gut feeling is kind of right xD.
Peace Progressive one xD peace
Hi
I'm glad you are understanding the concept
Ayman wrote the article that I mentioned - he's a long-term poster. I dont agree with all of his points or his translations - such as that of al-masjid al-haram, but the article definitely goes in the right direction.Peace!
-
Hi
I'm glad you are understanding the concept )
Ayman wrote the article that I mentioned - he's a long-term poster. I dont agree with all of his points or his translations - such as that of al-masjid al-haram, but the article definitely goes in the right direction.Peace!
His translation of al-masjid-al-haram IS pretty convincing though... xD, I mean he explains it very well bit by bit AND pieces it together with other related verses. It seems on the right lines and definitely agrees with my concept that al-masjid-al-haram is NOT a physical building (or not the one that is named today anyway...). Do you yet have a round-about translation of it in English that you feel it may be? Al-Haram seems to be "the forbidden" but what about al-masjid? )
Peace D
-
His translation of al-masjid-al-haram IS pretty convincing though... xD, I mean he explains it very well bit by bit AND pieces it together with other related verses. It seems on the right lines and definitely agrees with my concept that al-masjid-al-haram is NOT a physical building (or not the one that is named today anyway...). Do you yet have a round-about translation of it in English that you feel it may be? Al-Haram seems to be "the forbidden" but what about al-masjid? )
Peace
Well the whole institution of obeying the forbidden is false because in arabic when you have "al" it does not literally continue with "the" from the first (ie. it is not "institution of of obeying THE forbidden", rather it is something like "the restricted institution of submission". The term "al salat al wusta" is comparable - it's not "the bond the most balanced"; it's "the most balanced bond". His ideas are very good though. I am not quite sure about his argument equating al-masjid al-haram to the straight path and just listing the "restricted/enjoined" ("haram" list of things and linking it to "al masjid al haram". Generally it is a good article that will help many have a fundamental idea of the concept which can be built upon with further individual study.
-
Well the whole institution of obeying the forbidden is false because in arabic when you have "al" it does not literally continue with "the" from the first (ie. it is not "institution of of obeying THE forbidden", rather it is something like "the restricted institution of submission". The term "al salat al wusta" is comparable - it's not "the bond the most balanced"; it's "the most balanced bond". His ideas are very good though. I am not quite sure about his argument equating al-masjid al-haram to the straight path and just listing the "restricted/enjoined" ("haram" list of things and linking it to "al masjid al haram". Generally it is a good article that will help many have a fundamental idea of the concept which can be built upon with further individual study.
Hmm very true. I see your logic. I dunno the first thing when I was reading it struck me as possibly something within ourselves in a certain sense. It's hard to explain. Like a mental thing... within ourselves that we face at all times.. ?
-
Hmm very true. I see your logic. I dunno the first thing when I was reading it struck me as possibly something within ourselves in a certain sense. It's hard to explain. Like a mental thing... within ourselves that we face at all times.. ?
I think it has something to do with God's system and his laws. Remember, it is "the truth from our Lord" and the Jews and Christians also know that it is the "truth from their Lord". This is similar to what is stated in Ayman's article.
-
I think it has something to do with God's system and his laws. Remember, it is "the truth from our Lord" and the Jews and Christians also know that it is the "truth from their Lord". This is similar to what is stated in Ayman's article.
Yeah... God's system and his laws. But it could be a part of God's system to face something wherever we are at all times that will have something to do with an internal process or perhaps a mentality (i think this is what i meant). I keep thinking... the restricted institute of submission. If restricted institute isn't a physical building per se... it must be something within us no? One of God's laws about our mentality or outlook... possibly... or not lol (DOH!!).
-
Peace brother Progressive1993,
It is great to see you on Free-minds. It has been a while for me.
Well the whole institution of obeying the forbidden is false because in arabic when you have "al" it does not literally continue with "the" from the first (ie. it is not "institution of of obeying THE forbidden", rather it is something like "the restricted institution of submission". The term "al salat al wusta" is comparable - it's not "the bond the most balanced"; it's "the most balanced bond". His ideas are very good though. I am not quite sure about his argument equating al-masjid al-haram to the straight path and just listing the "restricted/enjoined" ("haram" list of things and linking it to "al masjid al haram". Generally it is a good article that will help many have a fundamental idea of the concept which can be built upon with further individual study.
I agree that the accuracy of my translation of al-masjid al-haram can be improved. I have since changed my translation to "the inviolable institution of obedience". This is very close to your understanding of "system" but is more specific. An institution of obdience is not just any system but is a system of authority that results in obedience. So this is essentially the system of authority that we should not violate.
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
-
Peace Sushi,
How exactly is it idolatry by saying peace for a dead person... I'm not seeing the logic. Idolatry is the worship of an idol... a dead person to ME anyway is not an idol... would be ludicrous to think that... could you elaborate??
Where in the great reading does it tell us to say "peace upon him" or to repeat "sala allah alayh wa salam" whenever someone says the word "Muhamed" or "the prophet"?
I would suggest that everyone should read 3356 very carefully and understand what is required and look up the meaning of the word "taslim" mentioned, which is different than "salam".
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Youssef,
I would think a qibla, would be a direction for prayer, as to promote harmony. Instead of people facing all different directions.
Where does it say in the great reading that a "qibla" is a direction for prayer and where does it say that the objective of "qibla" is to promote harmony??
Is "harmony" an objective that can be gathered from 2143? In fact, from 2143 one can gather the opposite of what you are saying. The "qibla" is a test to separate those who are following the messengers from those who are turning the other way.
002.143
YUSUFALI Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind.
SHAKIR And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make that which you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him who follows the Messenger from him who turns back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people.
KHALIFA We thus made you an impartial community, that you may serve as witnesses among the people, and the messenger serves as a witness among you. We changed the direction of your original Qiblah only to distinguish those among you who readily follow the messenger from those who would turn back on their heels. It was a difficult test, but not for those who are guided by GOD. GOD never puts your worship to waste. GOD is Compassionate towards the people, Most Merciful.Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Sushi,
Unfortunately when going into his family tradition, I would not have much of a choice but to do it... I keep getting many negative responses to anything other than praying towards the Black Stone and if I do otherwise it will be not entirely right.
Here is an experiment so that you can be certain who are the foolish people talked about in 2142.
Face any other direction in your prayer and surely the people who make a big deal out of physical direction will ask you something similar to the following
002.142
YUSUFALI The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.
PICKTHAL The foolish of the people will say What hath turned them from the qiblah which they formerly observed? Say Unto Allah belong the East and the West. He guideth whom He will unto a straight path.
SHAKIR The fools among the people will say What has turned them from their qiblah which they had? Say The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path.You will be able to empirically verify who the foolish people are.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Youssef,
Where does it say in the great reading that a "qibla" is a direction for prayer and where does it say that the objective of "qibla" is to promote harmony??
Is "harmony" an objective that can be gathered from 2143? In fact, from 2143 one can gather the opposite of what you are saying. The "qibla" is a test to separate those who are following the messengers from those who are turning the other way.
002.143
YUSUFALI Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind.
SHAKIR And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make that which you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him who follows the Messenger from him who turns back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people.
KHALIFA We thus made you an impartial community, that you may serve as witnesses among the people, and the messenger serves as a witness among you. We changed the direction of your original Qiblah only to distinguish those among you who readily follow the messenger from those who would turn back on their heels. It was a difficult test, but not for those who are guided by GOD. GOD never puts your worship to waste. GOD is Compassionate towards the people, Most Merciful.Peace,
Ayman
But the Koran did say that the people of the Book also have Qibla. And we know that the Jews do pray towards Jerusalem. So Qibla probably is a direction of praying.
-
But the Koran did say that the people of the Book also have Qibla. And we know that the Jews do pray towards Jerusalem. So Qibla probably is a direction of praying.
The Jews are wrong on both issues. What makes you think that they are wrong about Jerusalem but are right about the the purpose? It seems that the purpose is the aspect where one would get lost first.
Peace,
Ayman
-
The Jews are wrong on both issues. What makes you think that they are wrong about Jerusalem but are right about the the purpose? It seems that the purpose is the aspect where one would get lost first.
Peace,
Ayman
I am not saying they were right or wrong. I am saying the Koran when talking about the Qibla mentioned the Jewish Qibla also. We know the Jews had a Qibla concept, at least the Pharisees did. And it was the Pharisees who were around the prophet. So I think Qibla is talking about praying direction. From a Koranic point of view, Qibla is a ritual like the Sabbath. Like all rituals its a means to an end and not an end by itself. We are told in the Koran that Qibla, like the Sabbath, was a test. We are also told that Qibla is not what God looks at. God is everywhere so you can pray whatever direction you want. This is of course very different than how most Muslims understand the Qibla. But I was refering to the Jewish Qibla
In Judaism, mizrah (Hebrew "east" is the direction that most Jews in the diaspora face during prayer, as Jewish law prescribes that Jews face the site of the Temple in Jerusalem during prayer, and most Jews in the diaspora live west of Jerusalem, so they face eastward during prayer. The word "mizrach" also refers to the wall of the synagogue that faces east, where seats are reserved for the rabbi and other dignitaries. In addition, "mizrach" refers to an ornamental wall plaque used to indicate the direction of prayer in Jewish homes.
The Talmud lays down the rule that if one prays in the Diaspora, he shall direct himself toward the Land of Israel; in Israel, toward Jerusalem; in Jerusalem, toward the Temple; and in the Temple, toward the Holy of Holies. The same rule is found in the Mishnah; however, it is prescribed for individual prayers only rather than for congregational prayers at a synagogue. Thus, if a man is east of the Temple, he should turn westward; if in the west, eastward; in the south, northward; and if in the north, southward.
The custom is based on the prayer of Solomon (I Kings 833, 44, 48; II Chron. 634). Another passage supporting this rule is found in the Book of Daniel, which relates that in the upper chamber of the house, where Daniel prayed three times a day, the windows of which were opened toward Jerusalem (Dan. 610).
It is customary in traditional Jewish homes to mark the wall in the direction of mizrah to facilitate proper prayer. For this purpose, people use artistic wall plaques inscribed with the word mizrah and scriptural passages like "From the rising (mi-mizrah) of the sun unto the going down thereof, the Lord's name is to be praised" (Ps. 1133), kabbalistic inscriptions, or pictures of holy places. These plaques are generally placed in rooms in which people pray, such as the living room or bedrooms.
The Jewish custom of fixing the direction of prayer and orienting synagogues accordingly influenced both Christianity and Islam. In early Christianity, it was customary to pray facing toward the Holy Land, see also Jerusalem in Christianity. The orientation of churches toward the east has preserved until nowadays. In Islam, the original direction of prayer (qibla) was toward Jerusalem; however it was subsequently changed to Mecca.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrah
We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.
( , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #144)Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy Qibla; nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qibla. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong.
( , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #145)We also know that some Earlier Christians use to pray towards Jerusalem also. We also have information that the Early Muslims used to pray towards Southern Palestine, possibly Beersheeba. There has been some mosques discovered that had the direction pointing towards southern Palestine. But who knows really?
-
Thanks nurmuhammed,
I got up to page 56 then got busy so when I have time I will definitely read it.
What is your opinion on Al-Masjid-Al-Haram? What do you make of the Kaaba in Mecca and the mosque being NAMED that?
Would be nice to see peoples opinons on this, other than the great opinions I have already got
Peace ) peace
what do you mean by "peoples opinions" ? laugh
Anyway, my opinion is now focused on translations of words in Quran. For ex masajidal-Harami is about a system of life neither any house or cubical stone ....
Do you know a word "Kaaba" which mentioned in Quran ? -
Qibla is a 'place of gathering/rallying point' not the 'direction to orient your head on praying'....
The Israelite (Jews included) place of gathering (Qibla) during Jesus time is IN Jerusalem...
The Israelite (Jews included) place of gathering (Qibla) during Moses time, just before the big migration from Egypt, is IN "Their respective home within Egypt"..In today's world the synonym of "Qibla" is Plaza, Headquarter, Capital etc...
Salam / Peace
-
I am not saying they were right or wrong. I am saying the Koran when talking about the Qibla mentioned the Jewish Qibla also. We know the Jews had a Qibla concept, at least the Pharisees did. And it was the Pharisees who were around the prophet. So I think Qibla is talking about praying direction. From a Koranic point of view, Qibla is a ritual like the Sabbath. Like all rituals its a means to an end and not an end by itself. We are told in the Koran that Qibla, like the Sabbath, was a test. We are also told that Qibla is not what God looks at. God is everywhere so you can pray whatever direction you want. This is of course very different than how most Muslims understand the Qibla. But I was refering to the Jewish Qibla
In Judaism, mizrah (Hebrew "east" is the direction that most Jews in the diaspora face during prayer, as Jewish law prescribes that Jews face the site of the Temple in Jerusalem during prayer, and most Jews in the diaspora live west of Jerusalem, so they face eastward during prayer. The word "mizrach" also refers to the wall of the synagogue that faces east, where seats are reserved for the rabbi and other dignitaries. In addition, "mizrach" refers to an ornamental wall plaque used to indicate the direction of prayer in Jewish homes.
The Talmud lays down the rule that if one prays in the Diaspora, he shall direct himself toward the Land of Israel; in Israel, toward Jerusalem; in Jerusalem, toward the Temple; and in the Temple, toward the Holy of Holies. The same rule is found in the Mishnah; however, it is prescribed for individual prayers only rather than for congregational prayers at a synagogue. Thus, if a man is east of the Temple, he should turn westward; if in the west, eastward; in the south, northward; and if in the north, southward.
The custom is based on the prayer of Solomon (I Kings 833, 44, 48; II Chron. 634). Another passage supporting this rule is found in the Book of Daniel, which relates that in the upper chamber of the house, where Daniel prayed three times a day, the windows of which were opened toward Jerusalem (Dan. 610).
It is customary in traditional Jewish homes to mark the wall in the direction of mizrah to facilitate proper prayer. For this purpose, people use artistic wall plaques inscribed with the word mizrah and scriptural passages like "From the rising (mi-mizrah) of the sun unto the going down thereof, the Lord's name is to be praised" (Ps. 1133), kabbalistic inscriptions, or pictures of holy places. These plaques are generally placed in rooms in which people pray, such as the living room or bedrooms.
The Jewish custom of fixing the direction of prayer and orienting synagogues accordingly influenced both Christianity and Islam. In early Christianity, it was customary to pray facing toward the Holy Land, see also Jerusalem in Christianity. The orientation of churches toward the east has preserved until nowadays. In Islam, the original direction of prayer (qibla) was toward Jerusalem; however it was subsequently changed to Mecca.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrah
We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.
( , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #144)Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy Qibla; nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qibla. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong.
( , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #145)We also know that some Earlier Christians use to pray towards Jerusalem also. We also have information that the Early Muslims used to pray towards Southern Palestine, possibly Beersheeba. There has been some mosques discovered that had the direction pointing towards southern Palestine. But who knows really?
So Bigmo we are in an agreement that facing any direction for prayer is unnecessary, but in the context of chapter 2 verse 144, it was set at a certain position at that time to distinguish the muslims from the unbelievers right? But then... this is kind of going against what other's (myself included) have translated as the "sacred mosque". This will obviously have to apply to us then... no? Or are we now saying that it was only for Muhammed at the time and really, it doesn't matter which direction, as like the verse describing the fools who question why you are not facing the direction of the Qibla... when really God is everywhere.
Peace bro )
-
what do you mean by "peoples opinions" ? laugh
Anyway, my opinion is now focused on translations of words in Quran. For ex masajidal-Harami is about a system of life neither any house or cubical stone ....
Do you know a word "Kaaba" which mentioned in Quran ?Sorry, not 'opinions'... lazy typing... I mean to say people's different interpretations of it all . And no... unless there is a dodgy translation I didn't see anything about the word Kaaba. The only reason I've heard of this is because apparently thats the building that the Prophet had faced.... (??)
Peace
-
Peace Sushi,
Here is an experiment so that you can be certain who are the foolish people talked about in 2142.
Face any other direction in your prayer and surely the people who make a big deal out of physical direction will ask you something similar to the following
002.142
YUSUFALI The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.
PICKTHAL The foolish of the people will say What hath turned them from the qiblah which they formerly observed? Say Unto Allah belong the East and the West. He guideth whom He will unto a straight path.
SHAKIR The fools among the people will say What has turned them from their qiblah which they had? Say The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path.You will be able to empirically verify who the foolish people are.
Peace,
Ayman
Ayman I am agreeing with you here... I do not see what else it could mean apart from actually praying to the Qibla, though praying is not specified here but obviously a Qibla was used to pray no? So we know that this is regarding praying yes?
Peace
-
Qibla is a 'place of gathering/rallying point' not the 'direction to orient your head on praying'....
The Israelite (Jews included) place of gathering (Qibla) during Jesus time is IN Jerusalem...
The Israelite (Jews included) place of gathering (Qibla) during Moses time, just before the big migration from Egypt, is IN "Their respective home within Egypt"..In today's world the synonym of "Qibla" is Plaza, Headquarter, Capital etc...
Salam / Peace
Hmm ok Jafar, so your interpretation is "gathering point/rally point" and Ayman's interpretation of this (as far as I know, correct me if I am wrong Ayman) is that it means "target"... so what can we draw from this then. That the Qibla is a gathering point which is used as a target? And if so then when questioned why we turn away from the set 'target' or 'gathering point' we say to God is the east and the west.
Peace peace
-
Hmm ok Jafar, so your interpretation is "gathering point/rally point" and Ayman's interpretation of this (as far as I know, correct me if I am wrong Ayman) is that it means "target"... so what can we draw from this then. That the Qibla is a gathering point which is used as a target? And if so then when questioned why we turn away from the set 'target' or 'gathering point' we say to God is the east and the west.
Peace peace
And We inspired to Moses and his brother, "Settle your people in Egypt in houses and MAKE THE HOUSES QIBLATAN and uphold the commandment/commitment (Salata) and give good tidings to the believers.
(1087)This has been discussed here before..
This is the key verse which explain what "QIBLAT" really means...So let's imagine we're among "Moses people" as told in that verse..
We're told to stay put in our houses and make our own houses (as) QIBLAT.Well.. if Qiblat is a kind of direction to orient our faces to, and given we're told to be in the house which are told as the Qiblat .. then any direction IS the Qiblat.. which makes the statement / sentence useless and meaningless..
The similitude is the same as this statement
"Go inside your own car and when you're there, remember to always direct your face toward your own car which you're into..."Let's take another variance..
"Go to Shenzhen China, rent an office space there, and make the office as QIBLAT".
It make sense, it means...
"Go to Shenzhen China, rent an office space there, and make the office as Headquarter/Gathering Point".Let's get back now to the verse
"Settle your people in Egypt in houses and MAKE THE HOUSES QIBLATAN"
it means..
"Settle your people in Egypt in houses and MAKE THE HOUSES AS THE GATHERING POINT/HEADQUARTER "For easier logistic distribution, coordination and management as shortly after this we shall leave Egypt altogether... which will be very hard to do if we're spread all over Egypt....
Again this is the same as another example in daily life..
"Before we leave to Bahamas for vacation, let's make the Airport as our Qiblat, we meet up / gather around there and then we all go to Bahamas altogether"...Salam / Peace