Friends with Non-muslims? -_- Please help
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Turkey, Saudi Arabia or Gulf States are violating the Qur'an. We take them (the West) as allies while they are massacring millions of Muslims. If that is not clear violation of those verses mentioned earlier, then I don't know what is. The West is at war with Islam.
No they are NOT in a war with Islam. America is not a christian country by their definition nor has it been found on Christianity contrary to popular belief.
America started a War on "Terror" not a War on "Islam". They go after groups such as Al Qaeda, the Taliban, or other horrible dictorial countries such as the recent assistance with the Libyans on overthrowing the horrible Gaddafi.
Thus I wouldn't say they are violating it at all as they aren't coming in as Christians or any religion but rather as a state to state approach regardless of religion. If religion was at play, none of the muslim nations would side with the US considering they would be in danger too over time.
Now the crusades we had in the past were indeed cases of Christians trying to annihilate Islam (or were they simply just trying to take Jerusalam? need clarification here P))
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Peace progressive1993
yes i do like some of the things in Edip's translation. -
Turkey, Saudi Arabia or Gulf States are violating the Qur'an. We take them (the West) as allies while they are massacring millions of Muslims. If that is not clear violation of those verses mentioned earlier, then I don't know what is. The West is at war with Islam.
Turkey??? Really?? Hmm I gotta read up on my family history then... I thought it was all good in that country now... and all I heard was positives after Ataturk's reign |.
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Turkey, Saudi Arabia or Gulf States are violating the Qur'an. We take them (the West) as allies while they are massacring millions of Muslims. If that is not clear violation of those verses mentioned earlier, then I don't know what is. The West is at war with Islam.
This is absolute BS - at least the part referring to Turkey.
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This is absolute BS - at least the part referring to Turkey.
Thank GOD! Thought my pride was wounded for a minute!!! I mean I might have been born here but my dad DEFINITELY would know about ANYTHING like that!!! Turkey is probably one of the countries that is peaceful when it comes to ALL people |...
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So I am pretty depressed at the moment after seeing a couple of verses regarding friendship and I have done searches here and there and on this form too. So here is my problem
I had seen a couple of verses that stated we couldn't be "tawallaw" with Christians, Jews, and other non-muslims which some examples are these
"O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Nazarenes as "awliya", for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from amongst you is one of them. God does not guide the wicked people" (551)
"O you who believe, do not take as "awliya" those who have taken your system as fun and games from among those who have been given the Scripture before you and the rejecters. And be aware of God if you are believers." (557)
"O you who believe, do not "tatawallaw" a people with whom God is angry; for they have given-up regarding the Hereafter, just like the rejecters have given-up on the people who are already in the graves." (6013)
The words that I bolded are all forms of the word "Wali" which can mean "ally", "friend", "guardian" or "advisor".
A lot of Sunni translations have made it to be "friend" which meant we couldn't be friends with non-muslims. Which I found odd as we can marry Christians and Jews yet not befriend them? o
Then there was the wonderful verse of 608-9
"God does not forbid you from those who have not fought you because of your system, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable." (60
"But God does forbid you regarding those who fought you because of your system, and drove you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out. You shall not ally with them. Those who ally with them, then such are the transgressors." (609)
The first verse here states that we are not forbidden from them if they aren't fighting us because of our faith, nor driving us out of our homes and that if they do we should not be there friends anymore as well as not be there "ally".
Here wali is translated to ally as if it was translated to friend it would sound as if you are being told twice to stop being their friend in 609 as the first part of that verse already tells you. Correct me if I'm wrong please )
So here are my main questions
- So I have been thinking that these all translate to ally as in if they are at war with us, we should not ally with them if 608 is to make any sense but I am unsure of this. I've seen that the FM translation uses ally except on 5814
"Have you noted those who befriended people with whom God is angry? They are now neither from you nor from them. And they deliberately swear to lies while they know!" (5814)
This scared me as they decided to translate wali as "friend" here unlike in the other places. Can anyone explain this part to me? Is that a mistake on their part? As I am friends with people who God might possibly be angry at for their sins, for their polytheism (hindus that I know), or atheism (this would include my father which I love so dearly '()
2)And then we also have
"You will not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day love those who oppose God and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with Spirit from Him, and He admits them into paradises with rivers flowing beneath, wherein they will abide. God is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of God. Most assuredly, the party of God are the winners." (5822)
And this last verse is what scares me and is one without the word "Wali" in it. My friends and father aren't hostile to me over my faith. They know my faith and such and don't try to force their own faith down my throat. Sure they may have told me at one point or another why their belief is correct in hopes that I take theirs but they didn't force it on me or anything once I rejected their words. They aren't hostile, they just wanna have a cup of coffee, go to the mall, and talk about worldly issues and stuff.
I mean there are Christian missionaries who go around telling people was Christianity is correct and Islam isn't because that is simply their belief but when with Muslims they understand and won't try to force it down them. Is it really wrong to be friends with them and have a nice cup of coffee especially since they aren't fighting me over my faith nor kicking me out of my home as 608-9 states?
Please help people cause i've been in such a sad sad daze -_-
Its talking about the disbelievers among the Jews and Christians and not the believers among them. As far as the war verses they are concerning the pagans and its based on defensive war. The Koran only recognizes defensive war or war to stop one party of believers attacking another party of believers.
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Thank GOD! Thought my pride was wounded for a minute!!! I mean I might have been born here but my dad DEFINITELY would know about ANYTHING like that!!! Turkey is probably one of the countries that is peaceful when it comes to ALL people |...
Well... that can get debatable but but its not the government as a whole, but rather the "Grey Wolves" who are a political group of Turkish Nationalist who want to absorb Azerbaijan from Iran and the nation of Azerbaijan too.
Otherwise as it stands they are neutral to everyone even if they are in NATO. Course they dislike Israel now due to the whole Flotilla issue a few years back.
PS. Yay a Pokemon fan! ^_^
Its talking about the disbelievers among the Jews and Christians and not the believers among them. As far as the war verses they are concerning the pagans and its based on defensive war. The Koran only recognizes defensive war or war to stop one party of believers attacking another party of believers.
I guess you mean "kaffir" rather then disbeliever here since a kaffir is known as someone who is hostile against believers in religious warfare even if they believe in God like the Jews and Christians.
Which makes me wonder the reason some traditionalists label Christians and Jews as a whole even though they aren't hostile religiously overall probably has its origins in the crusades when Christians had a holy war against muslims.
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It seems our freaks dont like discussing this issue D
"O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Nazarenes as "awliya", for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from amongst you is one of them. God does not guide the wicked people" (551)
If Allah did allow you to do it, could your stomach accept to take those close friends who reject ayats of Allah ?
I'd prefer HIV virus instead of christians and jews. at least it is not the worst creature (read 986)
peace
Peace,
Please recheck your translation.986 is talking about the DISBELIEVERS amongst the People of the book (i.e Atheists that were once from the people of the book). This is not talking about rigteous people from the people of the book
'They are not all the same; among the People of the Book is a community standing , reciting the verses of God during periods of the night and prostrating
They believe in God and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous.
And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And God is conscious of the righteous. (3113-115)again this is talking about awliyaa2= alies (e.g during war 552), not friendship 608, and not marriage 55...
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Afterall God allows us to marry them which is MUCH closer then friendship.
closer than a friend but not necessarily closer than a wali.
moreover notice what allowed in related verse is marriage with women of people of the book not with christian jewish women. all christians and jews are people of the book but all people of the book aren't christians and jews. there are both believers and disbelievers of people of the book. for example you cant marry a trinitarian woman otherwise you would violate the verse prohibiting marriages with mushriks, and from other verses such as 6010 we know Allah doesnt approve marriages between believers and disbelievers.. so the rest depends how one interprets related verses.
You know it "awliya" means "allies"
No, it doesnt, as far as I know. As we turks are muslims for many centuries, there are many arabic words in turkish and wali (veli) is one of them. so
friend= arkadas
wali= veli (pl veliler or evliya)
ally= muttefik (probably another arabic origin word)an allience (ittifak in turkish) is a kind of agreement based on common benefits generally but not on trust, whereas a veli is your helper, protecter, trusted friend, a kind of comrade maybe and is more than a friend/acquaintance.
as for verses 551 601,8,9 557, the verses 551 and 557 give the instruction
551 do not take christians and jews as awliyaa
557 do not take disbelievers of the people of the book as awliyaa(notice the verses does NOT say "do not take people of the book as awliyaa", since there are also believers of the people of the book. )
and the verses 601,8,9 give the explanation why such an instruction is given by Allah.
it is something like
instruction I prohibit you from eating the apples on the table
explanation because I dont want you to eat rotten apples.so apparently the conclusion is not that we are prohibited from eating rotten apples on the table, but we are prohibited from eating the apples on the table since they are ALL rotten.
Similarly Allah prohibits muslims from taking christians and jews (disbelievers of the people of the book) as awliyaa since they potentially fight muslims because of their religion and evict them from their homes, just because their belief in God.
This is in fact one of the basic messages of AQ and also given in other verses in different ways such as
2120 Neither the Jews, nor the Christians, will accept you, unless you follow their religion. Say, "GOD's guidance is the true guidance." If you acquiesce to their wishes, despite the knowledge you have received, you will find no ally or supporter to help you against GOD.
Now, keeping my words in mind go and read 5822. You will easily understand it.
peace
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Well... that can get debatable but but its not the government as a whole, but rather the "Grey Wolves" who are a political group of Turkish Nationalist who want to absorb Azerbaijan from Iran and the nation of Azerbaijan too.
Otherwise as it stands they are neutral to everyone even if they are in NATO. Course they dislike Israel now due to the whole Flotilla issue a few years back.
PS. Yay a Pokemon fan! ^_^
I guess you mean "kaffir" rather then disbeliever here since a kaffir is known as someone who is hostile against believers in religious warfare even if they believe in God like the Jews and Christians.
Which makes me wonder the reason some traditionalists label Christians and Jews as a whole even though they aren't hostile religiously overall probably has its origins in the crusades when Christians had a holy war against muslims.
Haha probably a fan for too long looking at my age , but yes Turkey is a neutral country and no... don't think they are too keen on Israel at this present point. About us marrying jews and christians. My father (who is a muslim) married my mum (duh lol) who is a catholic but their religion never conflicts with eachother as they are in acceptance with their views in the sense they are not making a fight out of it and love eachother... I don't see this as being a problem. My understanding was from the Qur'an you can marry the believers (just not unbelievers i.e. people who just don't believe in God at all).... (
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closer than a friend but not necessarily closer than a wali.
moreover notice what allowed in related verse is marriage with women of people of the book not with christian jewish women. all christians and jews are people of the book but all people of the book aren't christians and jews. there are both believers and disbelievers of people of the book. for example you cant marry a trinitarian woman otherwise you would violate the verse prohibiting marriages with mushriks, and from other verses such as 6010 we know Allah doesnt approve marriages between believers and disbelievers.. so the rest depends how one interprets related verses.
No, it doesnt, as far as I know. As we turks are muslims for many centuries, there are many arabic words in turkish and wali (veli) is one of them. so
friend= arkadas
wali= veli (pl veliler or evliya)
ally= muttefik (probably another arabic origin word)an allience (ittifak in turkish) is a kind of agreement based on common benefits generally but not on trust, whereas a veli is your helper, protecter, trusted friend, a kind of comrade maybe and is more than a friend/acquaintance.
as for verses 551 601,8,9 557, the verses 551 and 557 give the instruction
551 do not take christians and jews as awliyaa
557 do not take disbelievers of the people of the book as awliyaa(notice the verses does NOT say "do not take people of the book as awliyaa", since there are also believers of the people of the book. )
and the verses 601,8,9 give the explanation why such an instruction is given by Allah.
it is something like
instruction I prohibit you from eating the apples on the table
explanation because I dont want you to eat rotten apples.so apparently the conclusion is not that we are prohibited from eating rotten apples on the table, but we are prohibited from eating the apples on the table since they are ALL rotten.
Similarly Allah prohibits muslims from taking christians and jews (disbelievers of the people of the book) as awliyaa since they potentially fight muslims because of their religion and evict them from their homes, just because their belief in God.
This is in fact one of the basic messages of AQ and also given in other verses in different ways such as
2120 Neither the Jews, nor the Christians, will accept you, unless you follow their religion. Say, "GOD's guidance is the true guidance." If you acquiesce to their wishes, despite the knowledge you have received, you will find no ally or supporter to help you against GOD.
Now, keeping my words in mind go and read 5822. You will easily understand it.
peace
Don't mix your turkish into this book of Arabic. I am Persian and we got arabic words mixed in too which the meanings change over time. For example Zalim in Persian just means a very cruel person, while in Arabic "Zalimoon" means someone who is either a kaffir, polytheist, or a sinner. Thus the Persian had taken out the religion out of that word.
Wali DOES mean ally more than friend. In the Quran the word for friend was khallan and the word for companion was ibuhu. The very fact that its talking about war in all those shows that its talking directly about alliances and who we can and cannot trust to be allies with. Everyday in town friendship has nothing to do with this stuff as long as they aren't being hostile to you for your religion and evicting you out of your home as 608-609 state.
Please look at the actual arabic language and not rely on loan words that might have their meaning changed over the centuries as it has in my language of Persian.
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Don't mix your turkish into this book of Arabic. I am Persian and we got arabic words mixed in too which the meanings change over time. For example Zalim in Persian just means a very cruel person, while in Arabic "Zalimoon" means someone who is either a kaffir, polytheist, or a sinner. Thus the Persian had taken out the religion out of that word.
Wali DOES mean ally more than friend. In the Quran the word for friend was khallan and the word for companion was ibuhu. The very fact that its talking about war in all those shows that its talking directly about alliances and who we can and cannot trust to be allies with. Everyday in town friendship has nothing to do with this stuff as long as they aren't being hostile to you for your religion and evicting you out of your home as 608-609 state.
Please look at the actual arabic language and not rely on loan words that might have their meaning changed over the centuries as it has in my language of Persian.
Agree. I have always known Wali to mean Ally and the context is definitely about war. As long as noone is hostile to your religion and are not forcing you out of your home because of this then I see no problem, as Aryan Warrior rightly quoted the verses.
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Salam Aryan
I wonder how you interpret 5822 where the word wali isnt used (if Im wrong pls correct)
5822 You will not find people who believe in GOD and the Last Day befriending those who oppose GOD and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with inspiration from Him, and admits them into gardens with flowing streams wherein they abide forever. GOD is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of GOD. Most assuredly, GOD's party are the winners.
peace
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Salam Aryan
I wonder how you interpret 5822 where the word wali isnt used (if Im wrong pls correct)
5822 You will not find people who believe in GOD and the Last Day befriending those who oppose GOD and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with inspiration from Him, and admits them into gardens with flowing streams wherein they abide forever. GOD is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of GOD. Most assuredly, GOD's party are the winners.
peace
Question "What is Judaism and what do Jews believe?"
Answer What is Judaism, and who or what is a Jew? Is Judaism simply a religion? Is it a cultural identity or just an ethnic group? Are Jews a clan of people or are they a nation? What do Jews believe, and do they all believe the same things?
Dictionary definitions of a ?Jew? include ?a member of the tribe of Judah,? ?an Israelite,? ?a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the 6th century B.C. to the 1st century A.D.,? ?a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people,? and ?one whose religion is Judaism.?
According to rabbinical Judaism, a Jew is one who has a Jewish mother or one who has formally converted to Judaism. Leviticus 2410 is often cited to give this belief credibility, although the Torah makes no specific claim in support of this tradition. Some rabbis say that it has nothing to do with what the individual actually believes. These rabbis tell us that a Jew does not need to be a follower of Jewish laws and customs to be considered Jewish. In fact, a Jew can have no belief in God at all and still be Jewish based on the above rabbinical interpretation.
http//www.gotquestions.org/Judaism.html
There is no concept of faith in Judaism. This has been a fact about Judaism since ethnicity is what determines a Jewish identity and not faith. So when the Koran talks about religious communities it seperates between believers and non believers.
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Salam Aryan
I wonder how you interpret 5822 where the word wali isnt used (if Im wrong pls correct)
5822 You will not find people who believe in GOD and the Last Day befriending those who oppose GOD and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with inspiration from Him, and admits them into gardens with flowing streams wherein they abide forever. GOD is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of GOD. Most assuredly, GOD's party are the winners.
peace
Actually that word is NOT "befriending" but rather "loving" and it says "oppose". Horrible translation there dude. Opposition refers to hostility I believe here and also agreed upon within tafsirs.
And again remember 608-9 which states if they aren't hostile, we can be good to one another.