Philosophy: To take money, from banks
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Democrats, religious.. skip this thread.
As the present system is usurious, and we gain not even the 10% of the fruits of our labor, can the 'taking of money' (to not say 'stealing' because you are only taking what is yours) from banks really be regarded as immoral ?
10% from the fruits of our labor...
Please explain.. what do you mean by this..Taking money from banks.. does the 'money' (in whatever form) belong to you?
If yes.. fine...Salam / Peace
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are you talking about interest?
and yes, do explain what the "10% of the fruits of our labor" -
Democrats, religious.. skip this thread.
As the present system is usurious, and we gain not even the 10% of the fruits of our labor, can the 'taking of money' (to not say 'stealing' because you are only taking what is yours) from banks really be regarded as immoral ?
As for "the present system" permitting usurious practices -- Nobody is required to engage (directly) in usurious transactions. One's doing business with a party who may be on either side of other, usurious transactions does not make one a party to usury.
God assures us in the Quran that the right path (or righteous living) is not to be particularly burdensome, but easy enough for us to follow. Modern life would be difficult indeed with no transactions within the present monetary system.
As for "taking of money" from banks -- If you mean withdrawing one's own (credited) funds, or if you mean (properly) collecting payment(s) through the banking system, why any concern about such being characterized as stealing? Please explain. Please speak plainly.
As for your claim that "we gain not even the 10% of the fruits of our labor" -- You seem to be claiming that your effective income tax rate exceeds ninety percent (?). Here are the present tax rates on taxable income for your indicated location. I hope you will find them helpful with your math.
http//www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html
SOL's first words I am not a baby, I am an infant.
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As for "the present system" permitting usurious practices -- Nobody is required to engage (directly) in usurious transactions. One's doing business with a party who may be on either side of other, usurious transactions does not make one a party to usury.
Are you joking ?
As for your claim that "we gain not even the 10% of the fruits of our labor" -- You seem to be claiming that your effective income tax rate exceeds ninety percent (?). Here are the present tax rates on taxable income for your indicated location. I hope you will find them helpful with your math.
Do you live with your parents ?
Add the cost of electricity, water, the cost of transportation, the cost of phone contracts, the cost of education, the cost of 'rent' or/and the purchase of land etc. things that are to be free, but are merchandised for the direct benefit of the elite, and you will see what I am talking about. Please do some research on self-sustaining homes as well.
My point is that most of our 'money' (which is really not 'money' anyway but mere paper) is being stolen by the leading class, and so to illegally ('illegal' applies to their unlawful and immoral legislation) take from the bank, is really to take back part of what is being stolen from you anyway.
God assures us in the Quran that the right path (or righteous living) is not to be particularly burdensome, but easy enough for us to follow. Modern life would be difficult indeed with no transactions within the present monetary system.
Let us not interpret the Qu'ran and be reasonable. I have only read that living righteously is not hard, but left to know is if the verse alludes to life in a truly islamic society, or to the present one. I opt for the first.
By the second sentence, I can see that you are an egoist, you agree that living and abiding to the rules (for example, to give taxes) of the actual society, would lead you to an easy and happy life, even though your own money is used to (not exclusively, so do not annoy me) finance atrocious crimes.
I hope you will be man enough to stand before your creator, and admit to all of this.
SOL's first words I am not a baby, I am an infant.
I am not sure I understand. I do not get the relation between SOL and this either, please enlighten my lost soul.
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Add the cost of electricity, water, the cost of transportation, the cost of phone contracts, the cost of education, the cost of 'rent' or/and the purchase of land etc. things that are to be free, but are merchandised for the direct benefit of the elite, and you will see what I am talking about. Please do some research on self-sustaining homes as well.
Which is fine.. as long as you also earn 'money' to pay those costs...
I don't see what's the problem here...Kindly explained on the "merchandised for the direct benefit of the elite"..
My point is that most of our 'money' (which is really not 'money' anyway but mere paper) is being stolen by the leading class, and so to illegally ('illegal' applies to their unlawful and immoral legislation) take from the bank, is really to take back part of what is being stolen from you anyway.
Money has many physical forms and paper is just one of them..
Nowadays money is NOT even a paper..
Nowadays the physical construct of money is a magnetic surface on top of a disc based platter.In whatever physical form (Gold, Paper, Electrical Current, Magnetic, Seashell, Feathers, Prepaid Voice Minutes);
Money has no value.. by itself..
It has real value if and only if.. it was being exchanged with something which has a real intrinsic value..
Such as but not limited to Electricity, Education, Land etc..So by 'taking money from the bank' you're planning to 'rob a bank'???
Salam / Peace
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You did not respond to the questions about what you mean by "taking of money" from banks.
Taking money from banks.. does the 'money' (in whatever form) belong to you?
If yes.. fine...
Salam / Peaceare you talking about interest?
As for "taking of money" from banks -- If you mean withdrawing one's own (credited) funds, or if you mean (properly) collecting payment(s) through the banking system, why any concern about such being characterized as stealing? Please explain. Please speak plainly.
Democrats, religious.. skip this thread.
As the present system is usurious, and we gain not even the 10% of the fruits of our labor, can the 'taking of money' (to not say 'stealing' because you are only taking what is yours) from banks really be regarded as immoral ?
As for "the present system" permitting usurious practices -- Nobody is required to engage (directly) in usurious transactions. One's doing business with a party who may be on either side of other, usurious transactions does not make one a party to usury.
God assures us in the Quran that the right path (or righteous living) is not to be particularly burdensome, but easy enough for us to follow. Modern life would be difficult indeed with no transactions within the present monetary system.
As for "taking of money" from banks -- If you mean withdrawing one's own (credited) funds, or if you mean (properly) collecting payment(s) through the banking system, why any concern about such being characterized as stealing? Please explain. Please speak plainly.
As for your claim that "we gain not even the 10% of the fruits of our labor" -- You seem to be claiming that your effective income tax rate exceeds ninety percent (?). Here are the present tax rates on taxable income for your indicated location. I hope you will find them helpful with your math.
http//www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html
SOL's first words I am not a baby, I am an infant.
Are you joking ?
No, grasshopper, I am not. I am not a party to usury for making deposits and collections at a bank that makes loans; I am not a party to usury for buying groceries or other goods at a store operated by a company that uses financing to add more stores; etc. The facts that I make transactions within the monetary system and that others may be lending or borrowing within the monetary system do not make me a usurer.
Do you live with your parents ?
No, grasshopper, I do not. Do you live with your parents?
Add the cost of electricity, water, the cost of transportation, the cost of phone contracts, the cost of education, the cost of 'rent' or/and the purchase of land etc. things that are to be free, but are merchandised for the direct benefit of the elite, and you will see what I am talking about.
Grasshopper, please refer again to those income tax charts to which I provided a link in my prior post. The nontaxable part of income is set to keep people from being taxed out of their basic needs. You enumerate items for consumption that are not essential to living. Free and/or subsidized education is offered by your government. Health care services are provided by your government. A great deal of expense in lifestyle is up to the consumer. People make their own judgments and choices about things such as housing, clothing, foods, and modes of transportation to use. Some live in palaces, some in apartments, some in ordinary houses, and some in tents, as examples; some travel by private aircraft, some by taxi, some by ordinary automobile, some by public transportation, and some by bicycle, as examples.
Add the cost of electricity, water, the cost of transportation, the cost of phone contracts, the cost of education, the cost of 'rent' or/and the purchase of land etc. things that are to be free, but are merchandised for the direct benefit of the elite, and you will see what I am talking about.
Grasshopper, only in SOL's alternate reality are those things supposed to be free. You might notice also that in SOLalaland purchases and sales of real estate and other property (such as the watermelon) are assumed, and that such things as utility services are to be available only for payment of user fees. Reality check -- Why do you suppose SOL is not giving you your living and every comfort you desire? Why are you not giving the other inhabitants of the world their livings and every comfort they desire? Please explain your theory that you are so entitled and not so obligated -- and that you should not even be responsible to provide for your own wants?
My point is that most of our 'money' (which is really not 'money' anyway but mere paper) is being stolen by the leading class, and so to illegally ('illegal' applies to their unlawful and immoral legislation) take from the bank, is really to take back part of what is being stolen from you anyway.
Grasshopper, money is whatever the law says it is. When and where the law says that money is some paper representing debt, or that it is some electronic indications in banking system computers, then that is what money/currency is, and that is the customary mode of payment for goods, services, etc.
The tax (or other) money we pay to the taxing (or any other) entity ceases being ours when it is paid.
Most everyone disagrees with at least some policy of their government. Citizenship and its obligations do not make the citizenry responsible for all governmental policies and actions. Most everyone in First World countries enjoys many benefits from government policy and government spending.
Deposits and some other transactions done with banks enable bank lending, but do not necessarily result in bank loan arrangements. If nobody were to take their loan bait, there would be no such lending. If governments were not to take their loan bait, there would be no theft by inflation. The only control or influence we have as to government spending and government borrowing is in voting in elections.
Did God make you and/or SOL manager of the Universe outside SOL's alternate reality? Apparently the rest of this Universe missed the memo on that. Did God tell you that committing theft and/or any other lawlessness would be excusable for the reason that somewhere someone might be doing something not to your liking?
Let us not interpret the Qu'ran and be reasonable. I have only read that living righteously is not hard, but left to know is if the verse alludes to life in a truly islamic society, or to the present one. I opt for the first.
Let us be reasonable and interpret the Quran. Clearly, it assumes private property, not to be stolen, and uneven distribution of wealth. Its guidance covers such things as participation in ordinary commerce; honoring contractual commitments; forgiveness of indebtedness in some cases; fair dealing with others, as in using honest measurements in the trading (sales/purchases) of goods; spending; sharing with others not so blessed materially; and supporting one's (properly dependent) dependents. No particular currency is defined and prescribed for us, but that is not necessary to understanding what is meant and that using and participating in some monetary system(s) would necessarily be involved. Currency varies from time to time and place to place; anything recognized as money functions for those purposes.
Let us not interpret the Qu'ran and be reasonable. I have only read that living righteously is not hard, but left to know is if the verse alludes to life in a truly islamic society, or to the present one. I opt for the first.
Perhaps you would have more appreciation for your present situation and the practical challenges presented with different societal conditions if you were to take a nice long vacation in Somalia. Or Cuba.
http//www.zimbio.com/watch/SPDnyA1yLuN/Message+American+People/Saturday+Night+Live
God assures us in the Quran that the right path (or righteous living) is not to be particularly burdensome, but easy enough for us to follow. Modern life would be difficult indeed with no transactions within the present monetary system.
By the second sentence, I can see that you are an egoist, you agree that living and abiding to the rules (for example, to give taxes) of the actual society, would lead you to an easy and happy life, even though your own money is used to (not exclusively, so do not annoy me) finance atrocious crimes.
I hope you will be man enough to stand before your creator, and admit to all of this.
your own money is used to (not exclusively, so do not annoy me) finance atrocious crimes.
No, grasshopper, what God wills to make my money is mine, and mine for only whatever time it is mine; others' money is subject to others' uses. It is both a blessing and a test.
you agree that living and abiding to the rules (for example, to give taxes) of the actual society, would lead you to an easy and happy life
No, grasshopper, nothing is assured any of us except for God's assurances.
Grasshopper, while you are bashing your fellow humans as (imagined) criminal, juvenile, elitist, egoistic, etc., persons for disagreeing with you or asking you to make your statements clear, it seems to escape your notice who seems to be showing those very traits -- presuming to banish others from participating in discussions on this site; pouting out loud that the rest of the Universe is not conforming to your imagined entitlements of a free living in your desired lifestyle and at others' expense; expressing your sense of entitlement to be above/beyond the laws of civilized society for your presumed excuse that somewhere someone might be doing something of which you would not approve; appointing yourself a judge of others' worthiness as Muslims; taking SOL's incoherent alternate reality misguidance over the Quran's sufficient guidance sent by God; etc.
SOL's first words I am not a baby, I am an infant.
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Dear, http//images.wikia.com/cartooncharacters/images/d/d4/Jafar.gif
Forget it.
Nice cartoon.....
By the way, your statement of "(which is really not 'money' anyway but mere paper)" shows your lack of understanding of the whole conception of "money" a.k.a token for exchange..
I don't blame you because majority of the people doesn't..
Even... this dude in the video below, who supposed to be the head of a "Central Bank"..
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NJnL10vZ1YThe case of the Bernanke's stupidity lack of understanding is the opposite of what's common being discussed here or in the whole middle east in general. Upon being asked by a straightforward question "Do You Think Gold Is Money?", he answered "No Gold is not money"...
Nonetheless how the central bank operate in US is 'different' with what central banks operate in other countries.. (e.g. China where Paper Money originated). As thus "US Federal Government" operating model cannot act as reference / best practices on how "Central Bank" generally should operate.
Salam / Peace
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Let us tone it down, little friend.
You did not respond to the questions about what you mean by "taking of money" from banks.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Grasshopper, only in SOL's alternate reality are those things supposed to be free. You might notice also that in SOLalaland purchases and sales of real estate and other property (such as the watermelon) are assumed, and that such things as utility services are to be available only for payment of user fees. Reality check -- Why do you suppose SOL is not giving you your living and every comfort you desire? Why are you not giving the other inhabitants of the world their livings and every comfort they desire? Please explain your theory that you are so entitled and not so obligated -- and that you should not even be responsible to provide for your own wants?
I have been called evil, polytheist, disbeliever, but you've topped it! Grasshopper, this is getting dirty! Such a harsh character, we would not think by seeing your avatar.
I do not understand why you affiliate me with SOL, though I was an anarchist before I have ever found the website. I see you have not taken my previous advice seriously, and have not investigated the concept of self-sustaining homes. Maybe if you had, you would not have shamed yourself by stating such.
The tax (or other) money we pay to the taxing (or any other) entity ceases being ours when it is paid.
In other words;
Lordfox makes a delicious chocolate cake.
Morninglight steals a piece of the cake.
The time, tears, sweat and blood of the poor lordfox are to be ignored, because the piece of the cake is now morninglight's.Most everyone disagrees with at least some policy of their government. Citizenship and its obligations do not make the citizenry responsible for all governmental policies and actions.
If I give money to John, knowing that John is an evil scientist who will make a special machine that will enable him to enslave all people, am I not one of the direct causes of his success (if he does)? Are we not part of the problem if we are not part of the solution?
Deposits and some other transactions done with banks enable bank lending, but do not necessarily result in bank loan arrangements. If nobody were to take their loan bait, there would be no such lending. If governments were not to take their loan bait, there would be no theft by inflation. The only control or influence we have as to government spending and government borrowing is in voting in elections.
Did God make you and/or SOL manager of the Universe outside SOL's alternate reality? Apparently the rest of this Universe missed the memo on that.
I am surprised that you think we are the only ones in the universe that share the same political ideas.
Did God tell you that committing theft and/or any other lawlessness would be excusable for the reason that somewhere someone might be doing something not to your liking?
Instead of blabbering, prove to me that what I have proposed is morally wrong and I will accept it.
Perhaps you would have more appreciation for your present situation and the practical challenges presented with different societal conditions if you were to take a nice long vacation in Somalia. Or Cuba.
If Sarah lives in Iran or in any other sharia-based society. Should Sarah simply accept the life she is living, simply because there is worse out there?
http//www.zimbio.com/watch/SPDnyA1yLuN/Message+American+People/Saturday+Night+Live
The video does not work.
Grasshopper, while you are bashing your fellow humans as (imagined) criminal, juvenile, elitist, egoistic, etc., persons for disagreeing with you or asking you to make your statements clear, it seems to escape your notice who seems to be showing those very traits -- presuming to banish others from participating in discussions on this site; pouting out loud that the rest of the Universe is not conforming to your imagined entitlements of a free living in your desired lifestyle and at others' expense; expressing your sense of entitlement to be above/beyond the laws of civilized society for your presumed excuse that somewhere someone might be doing something of which you would not approve; appointing yourself a judge of others' worthiness as Muslims; taking SOL's incoherent alternate reality misguidance over the Quran's sufficient guidance sent by God; etc.
I do not bash people for disagreeing with me, for I have no problem with that, else I would not take the time to create a thread and ask the opinions of others. I have never stated that I possess the ultimate truth, I only have a problem when some purposely misunderstand, or misinterpret my ideas, because of their preconceived notions. As for the rest of your allegations, I have responded to them and not only once, on this same forum. Surely we shall settle this by having a sword duel ?
Finally, O grand morninglight, with all the respect that I am to have for you, will you one day, from the top of your ivory tower, deign to show what we valueless mortals call the second degree. Maybe one day, I have hope, will I, dimwitted youth, be no longer the object of your distinguished and distant disdain. A thousand blessings on you Great Sage, and peace be with you.
Nice cartoon.....
Do you know who it is ?
By the way, your statement of "(which is really not 'money' anyway but mere paper)" shows your lack of understanding of the whole conception of "money" a.k.a token for exchange..
Yes, I have not put that much time into studying it carefully, but it is irrelevant in the present case.
If you would like to educate me, I would like it.Salam / Peace
Peace to you too.
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Salams, peace loving friends
Wow, morninglight... did you just compare Cuba to Somalia??? Were you aware that Cuba's biggest industry is probably TOURISM? Many freedom loving people go there intentionally to take vacations every year. Actually, I am most pleased to say that I personally have intentionally taken three long vacations in Cuba in my life, and I hope I can get there again some day. It was a great experience. and I made some great friends there, whom I still keep in touch with. Beautiful country. Your lumping those two states together was a pretty broad stroke, no? Let's be reasonable.
As for the actual argument here... thanks people! )
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Peace, Adel. I know that Cuba is a lovely place and that tourism has long been its leading industry. No, I do not think it is anything like Somalia. I just had an impulse to try to inject some humor there, so I added the suggestion of Cuba and that link to a (comedy show) video clip -- a bad idea, clearly, and I regret any confusion I caused by adding reference to Cuba. -[ I have lived in Latin America, where I missed so much about North American life, so much convenience and much in the way of consumer goods availability.
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AOA
As the present system is usurious, and we gain not even the 10% of the fruits of our labor, can the 'taking of money' (to not say 'stealing' because you are only taking what is yours) from banks really be regarded as immoral ?
Bit deep for simple folks like me. Perhaps you could explain what you mean and it might lead to an interesting discussion
Regards -
Quote from morninglight on May 21, 2012, 121352 PM
The tax (or other) money we pay to the taxing (or any other) entity ceases being ours when it is paid.In other words;
Lordfox makes a delicious chocolate cake.
Morninglight steals a piece of the cake.
The time, tears, sweat and blood of the poor lordfox are to be ignored, because the piece of the cake is now morninglight's.No, child, what you argue for is like this Lordfox goes to a restaurant where he purchases and enjoys a delicious roast beef sandwich with spicy brown mustard and kosher dill pickle chips. Before lordfox leaves the restaurant, he overhears a party of other patrons stating their intention that following their meal there, they will go home and have some beer. Lordfox goes across the street to rob a bank. Lordfox rationalizes that he is only taking back his "own" money that the restaurant "stole" from him to support or enable substance abuse.
Peace and blessings to you too, child.