God's Care
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Ok, Carlee. )
First, I'm going to ask some questions, if that is ok with you. Feel free to answer or not answer any of them.
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Would it be safe to say that you feel logic and reason will not allow you to believe in a just, all-powerful God that either causes and/or allows suffering?
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Do you think it is ever justified to cause or inflict suffering or death as a means of preventing more suffering? Example where I live, deer sometimes become overpopulated because of a large food supply. Hunting becomes encouraged because overpopulation leads to starving and sickly animals that suffer horribly.
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Have you ever squished a bug and not felt remorse for it?
I'd believe such if said suffering went where it belongs, i.e. people who're undoubtedly evil and did evil intentionally; not experienced by those being good and wanting to at least desire living, especially when they've not asked for a life. Heck, I may believe it if said god didn't necessarily give bounty and good to the them. At least make their life bearable enough mentally so they could achieve death via a method other than suicide. Keyword is may, since I don't see it logical they wouldn't be given that, and to give them the kind of mental torture leading to suicide, DESPITE trying so hard seeking God for help so many times before (I'm talking a 20 - 25 year period) makes the notion there's such god/light or whatever described in the Quran become very illogical. As for me, anything I've done wrong in life I've repented/apologized for LONG ago, and anything that I may do now to someone, which if anything would be in the form of words (talk-back) or slight actions, are done in retaliation; I don't just to it for the lulz or due to some kind of sadism, so no, logically there is no god - at least not the type any of the monotheistic religions (including Quran-alone sects) teach exists.
Shooting them and killing them instantly is justified, if it's going to prevent long-felt suffering such as hunger. That's even why most suicidal people want a gun - it ends suffering while not having to make you experience bursts of it before you die, not to mentioned guaranteed unlike many other methods, and when you attempt something that almost kills you but doesn't...well the rest of this should be obvious.
A bug dude. How many nerves, emotions etc. does it have compared to a much larger being like a human not to mention the human mind, plus it's a near instant death when someone (at least a good, and smart person) does it. I'm not gonna crush a leg of an ant, then another, then another before I'd kill one. It's more like a squish it didn't get to know for more than .25 seconds, done so that it doesn't cause months of some grief to a person because of an ant problem, and yes, humans much more important than insects in this sense.
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you know that you have that choice not to follow God's guidance or believe in anything. if you think it is immature to believe what is said about God and is written in the scriptures, then you don't have to. if you think God is crap and so are his scriptures, carlee you do have that choice not to follow.
wondering....are you stuck in your thinking as you are mentally suffering and reaching out for help or are you so resolute convinced in your thinking and just airing out your opinions? help me to understand what is your point, carlee?
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I believe that we don't know much about the "mechanics" of this life and it's purpose. Our minds are very small.
I also believe this life is a test and a school. We are given a chance to grow and improve ourselves to better and better states. The shit and suffering is part of the test... but is also a result of ourselves (as I currently believe)... and a necessity for us... but I don't have all the answers. But since we as human being do not know the secret of life and death and beyond, at least for experience, then we should assume there is MUCH we don't grasp, and should account for that big unknown... realizing we just don't know it all, and cannot determine how things really are, or their purpose.If it doesn't make sense to believe in a omnipotent and all merciful god, then perhaps it is our ideas that are wrong or faulty. We think we know what is just and right. We think we know what is merciful. Looking at humanity in general and how human beings behave with each other, ourselves and nature, it would be more logical to assume that we are retarded as far as justice and mercy is concerned, especially on a universal level. I don't think we as human being are the best judges of stuff like mercy and justice... looking at our track record.. sooo there might be stuff about mercy and justice we just don't comprehend.
I'm also pretty sure that our ideas of God is also quite twisted and retarded. I feel one gets a better idea of God by thinking about what God is NOT. Also scrap the terminology one is used to when thinking about reality, like 'God' for example... there is just too much false mental baggage attached to it... keeping us stuck in the same old useless thinking tracks... trapped and misled in old habitual thoughts and ideas.
If there is something which doesn't add up or make sense... perhaps we just cannot see the whole picture, or we don't see clearly, or we miss something. Perhaps it is not the thing which is wrong... but it is our thinking. It's like asking whether almighty God would be able to delete him self from existence since 'he' is almighty. Or, whether God can create a stone that is so heavy that even 'he' cannot lift it. It is the question which is faulty... it is not a proof that an almighty God doesn't exist. The problem lies in our perspective of reality... not in reality itself.
But I understand your questions and thinking... and I don't want to give shine I understand your suffering... I can only feel my own... but whatever I have posted above here now, are things I have been thinking about for a long time... so I thought I'd share it...
Peace!
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By the way if you're replying now, I just finished updating, so now it's up-to-date.
-Edit- Did a second update. Now it's up-to-date (heh this is kind of silly...p).
Lol, ok, let me see if I understand your responses. First, the problem of unjust suffering. Why are there people who go through horrible things, never seem to get any relief, and end up killing themselves? There is no way to reconcile the idea of a just, loving, and merciful God with the fact that this happens. It is illogical. Is this a fair summary of your first point?
If so, then we need to talk about human logic and reason. Do you think we, as humans, have enough logic and reason to determine what is right and wrong? I'm going to guess that you will say yes. So let's think about it a little bit. Socrates believed in a monistic soul. This means that in every person, their emotions, reason, and will all resided as a unified entity that he called the "soul" of a person. And because the will, emotions, and reason were all together in the soul, all a person had to do was figure out what was right and they would do it. In fact, they would be irresistibly compelled to do what they thought was right. Do you think that this is correct? I personally do not think Socrates was right and here's why. Have you ever known what was right to do and you didn't do it for any number of reasons? Have you known anyone else who knew that something was the right thing to do and they did the opposite? Everyone is like this to some degree. We all know that world hunger is bad, we all have the means to end it, and we don't do it. Socrates was wrong. Our will, reason, and emotions are not united in the soul. We are not truly logical or rational beings because most of the time we do not do what we know is right. We are, on occasion, capable of some level of reasoning, but not ewnough to know the truth.
And since we are not rational or logical beings, do we really have the ability to judge whether or not God exists, or even is just and good? If we can't even bring ourselves to do the things that we know are good, who are we to judge God? We cannot know truth through reason, we can only know it through revelation. We can, however, compare things that claim to be revealed from God and see if they fit the world around us.
But anyway, since we lack enough reason and logic to see the truth, we are incapable of seeing the end result of suffering. It sucks, I know. But I think that is the way that it is. But we do not suffer without meaning. I will say some more about that later.
Before I end up writing a novel, I want to hear what you think of what I've said this far.
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If so, then we need to talk about human logic and reason. Do you think we, as humans, have enough logic and reason to determine what is right and wrong? I'm going to guess that you will say yes. So let's think about it a little bit. Socrates believed in a monistic soul. This means that in every person, their emotions, reason, and will all resided as a unified entity that he called the "soul" of a person. And because the will, emotions, and reason were all together in the soul, all a person had to do was figure out what was right and they would do it. In fact, they would be irresistibly compelled to do what they thought was right. Do you think that this is correct? I personally do not think Socrates was right and here's why. Have you ever known what was right to do and you didn't do it for any number of reasons? Have you known anyone else who knew that something was the right thing to do and they did the opposite? Everyone is like this to some degree. We all know that world hunger is bad, we all have the means to end it, and we don't do it. Socrates was wrong. Our will, reason, and emotions are not united in the soul. We are not truly logical or rational beings because most of the time we do not do what we know is right. We are, on occasion, capable of some level of reasoning, but not ewnough to know the truth.
And since we are not rational or logical beings, do we really have the ability to judge whether or not God exists, or even is just and good? If we can't even bring ourselves to do the things that we know are good, who are we to judge God? We cannot know truth through reason, we can only know it through revelation. We can, however, compare things that claim to be revealed from God and see if they fit the world around us.
Where is the thousands of Likes button!!!!!! I like that post so very much. That is what I meant when I said when I observed how humans operate (especially my self), I felt the Qur'an's truth, because I realized my standards of righteousness are so flawed, I don't even do the things I think are good myself!, and God spoke things about this nature I didn't even want to subconsciously admit even though at first I resented what God is saying it made feel he i saying I am full of it, but I realized I so am! lol.
You worded it so well! I hope you will carry on.
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No, the Quran claims there's a god who's "capable of all things", unless you're trying to say your god is then not omnipotent.
It also claims he "knows everything". I'm also pretty sure it says somewhere there're no limits to his mercy. Even mainstream Islam teaches this, and it gives a much more sinister impression of "God" than any Quran-alone sect.
Isn't He capable of all things?
Allah's capable of manifesting anything, the world is the proof
But we have a choice to ask what Allah should manifest
If that choice coincides with His plans, it will manifest
If it doesn't Allah will make a way for you to be part of the planSahih International
And when he directed himself toward Madyan, he said, "Perhaps my Lord will guide me to the sound way."But if it contradicts with His plans, then you're in tough luck..
First of all, wtf is barkah? You mean baraka? If so, speak English, as this is an English forum.
blessings/goodness/wellness, i'm introducing you to the terminologies used by the Quran as it better depicts the idea..
you don't seem to want to see from the other pov.. that is your problem..Not to mention the Arabic text's too small to read and one of the "keywords" are not even in the verse.
you are such a cry baby, this is the default font don't blame me for that..
and you want to be fed with every details..
you don't have the inquisitive mind necessary, that's why you will fail..
i gave you the keywords to search for the verses that has the concepts.."i believe that what we believe in is what will manifest in our reality.."
Awesome; that's you. Everything following that is based on this belief of yours, not to mention this is basically more of the claim it's possible for anyone to make their life bearable (mentally, if one or more people haven't figured yet is what's meant) to them. Again, another irrational/immature way to think.
Well many people would argue that we do live in a world not so different from that of Alice in Wonderland..
or haven't you noticed that yet?
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Due4fbAdSSU
http//www.ted.com/talks/aaron_o_connell_making_sense_of_a_visible_quantum_object.html
wallahua3lam
peace -
If that choice coincides with His plans, it will manifest.
Will not respond to the rest as it's a sad attempt to get back at me for pointing out the obvious.
This quote's all that's needed to prove there's no merciful god. Read the rest of this post if you wish, though do me a favor and don't respond, unless you have something worthwhile to say.
you know that you have that choice not to follow God's guidance or believe in anything. if you think it is immature to believe what is said about God and is written in the scriptures, then you don't have to. if you think God is crap and so are his scriptures, carlee you do have that choice not to follow.
wondering....are you stuck in your thinking as you are mentally suffering and reaching out for help or are you so resolute convinced in your thinking and just airing out your opinions? help me to understand what is your point, carlee?
I'd say part of my coming here is to enlighten people there's in fact no god the Quran describes exists, with logic and reasoning. I'm not here to simply say I don't believe in it. I've proved there's nothing that has boundless power and mercy, or even boundless power and is just. You and some others simply find it hard to accept.
I believe that we don't know much about the "mechanics" of this life and it's purpose. Our minds are very small.
I also believe this life is a test and a school. We are given a chance to grow and improve ourselves to better and better states. The shit and suffering is part of the test... but is also a result of ourselves (as I currently believe)... and a necessity for us... but I don't have all the answers. But since we as human being do not know the secret of life and death and beyond, at least for experience, then we should assume there is MUCH we don't grasp, and should account for that big unknown... realizing we just don't know it all, and cannot determine how things really are, or their purpose.If it doesn't make sense to believe in a omnipotent and all merciful god, then perhaps it is our ideas that are wrong or faulty. We think we know what is just and right. We think we know what is merciful. Looking at humanity in general and how human beings behave with each other, ourselves and nature, it would be more logical to assume that we are retarded as far as justice and mercy is concerned, especially on a universal level. I don't think we as human being are the best judges of stuff like mercy and justice... looking at our track record.. sooo there might be stuff about mercy and justice we just don't comprehend.
I'm also pretty sure that our ideas of God is also quite twisted and retarded. I feel one gets a better idea of God by thinking about what God is NOT. Also scrap the terminology one is used to when thinking about reality, like 'God' for example... there is just too much false mental baggage attached to it... keeping us stuck in the same old useless thinking tracks... trapped and misled in old habitual thoughts and ideas.
If there is something which doesn't add up or make sense... perhaps we just cannot see the whole picture, or we don't see clearly, or we miss something. Perhaps it is not the thing which is wrong... but it is our thinking. It's like asking whether almighty God would be able to delete him self from existence since 'he' is almighty. Or, whether God can create a stone that is so heavy that even 'he' cannot lift it. It is the question which is faulty... it is not a proof that an almighty God doesn't exist. The problem lies in our perspective of reality... not in reality itself.
But I understand your questions and thinking... and I don't want to give shine I understand your suffering... I can only feel my own... but whatever I have posted above here now, are things I have been thinking about for a long time... so I thought I'd share it...
Peace!
Thanks, and ha, you are funny. )
By the way, it's not like I'm saying something should've happened somewhere to make me fine. An almighty god can at least make me strong enough to take life, but I've always been sensitive emotionally. Some things normal people find trivial and forgettable may make me depressed to the point I'd shoot myself with no second thought. I never thought I'd say this here, but what pushed me to make this topic was the grief I get from my mentally ill brother. My most recent experience deals with a girl on a social networking site. It's been with girls when I've experienced the most devastating emotional events. The second-to-last almost ended in suicide, and after 2 days ago, I was fubar'd.
Although I'm sad, I can still think/be rational just the same, so I advise no one to use this against me in their argument.
I'm expecting otherwise to happen from some, especially those who've shown they don't read what's posted here.
Lol, ok, let me see if I understand your responses. First, the problem of unjust suffering. Why are there people who go through horrible things, never seem to get any relief, and end up killing themselves? There is no way to reconcile the idea of a just, loving, and merciful God with the fact that this happens. It is illogical. Is this a fair summary of your first point?
If so, then we need to talk about human logic and reason. Do you think we, as humans, have enough logic and reason to determine what is right and wrong? I'm going to guess that you will say yes. So let's think about it a little bit. Socrates believed in a monistic soul. This means that in every person, their emotions, reason, and will all resided as a unified entity that he called the "soul" of a person. And because the will, emotions, and reason were all together in the soul, all a person had to do was figure out what was right and they would do it. In fact, they would be irresistibly compelled to do what they thought was right. Do you think that this is correct? I personally do not think Socrates was right and here's why. Have you ever known what was right to do and you didn't do it for any number of reasons? Have you known anyone else who knew that something was the right thing to do and they did the opposite? Everyone is like this to some degree. We all know that world hunger is bad, we all have the means to end it, and we don't do it. Socrates was wrong. Our will, reason, and emotions are not united in the soul. We are not truly logical or rational beings because most of the time we do not do what we know is right. We are, on occasion, capable of some level of reasoning, but not ewnough to know the truth.
And since we are not rational or logical beings, do we really have the ability to judge whether or not God exists, or even is just and good? If we can't even bring ourselves to do the things that we know are good, who are we to judge God? We cannot know truth through reason, we can only know it through revelation. We can, however, compare things that claim to be revealed from God and see if they fit the world around us.
But anyway, since we lack enough reason and logic to see the truth, we are incapable of seeing the end result of suffering. It sucks, I know. But I think that is the way that it is. But we do not suffer without meaning. I will say some more about that later.
Before I end up writing a novel, I want to hear what you think of what I've said this far.
We may be irrational to a degree, though some things are downright obvious. Mental suffering high as causing someone to have no will to continue, eat, drink, or to do anything besides lie on the ground to rot (if he couldn't kill himself beforehand) is never justified. What I find to be sick and ignorant of human beings, especially in countries like the United States is they will try to keep people alive no matter what. They don't believe in euthanasia, since they believe there can be hope for everyone to change. That's not possible with me, since change has been attempted many times, and each and every time, I'm back to desiring death like a cool water fountain in the Sahara.
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Will not respond to the rest as it's a sad attempt to get back at me for pointing out the obvious.
This quote's all that's needed to prove there's no merciful god. Read the rest of this post if you wish, though do me a favor and don't respond, unless you have something worthwhile to say.
Well I suppose you're the Most Merciful..
giveup
peace -
We may be irrational to a degree, though some things are downright obvious. Mental suffering high as causing someone to have no will to continue, eat, drink, or to do anything besides lie on the ground to rot (if he couldn't kill himself beforehand) is never justified. What I find to be sick and ignorant of human beings, especially in countries like the United States is they will try to keep people alive no matter what. They don't believe in euthanasia, since they believe there can be hope for everyone to change. That's not possible with me, since change has been attempted many times, and each and every time, I'm back to desiring death like a cool water fountain in the Sahara.
How do you know that such a degree of mental suffering is not a symptom of our inability to reason? DH Lawrence's poem says it best
I never saw a wild thing
sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.We, of all the creatures on the planet, experience so much anguish over our existence. Other creatures do not. They are born with all they need because they are not given perception of eternity. We worry about eternal concepts like justice, fairness, tolerance, truth, etc. It is because we are created to be completed by our connection to God. It is through this connection through whta God has revealed that we discover truth. The Qur'an speaks to the human condition truthfully we are hasty, we are conflicted, we are troubled. it is our natural condition because we are not mere natural creatures. Otherwise, why would we care about justice? Why would we care about truth? No other creature in nature does. It is this irrationality, this angst, this recognition of something lacking that is intended to drive us to God.
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I'd say part of my coming here is to enlighten people there's in fact no god the Quran describes exists, with logic and reasoning. I'm not here to simply say I don't believe in it. I've proved there's nothing that has boundless power and mercy, or even boundless power and is just. You and some others simply find it hard to accept.
per your opinion, people like me are not enlightened, are immature and not logical but carlee, unlike you we are not the ones mentally suffering wanting to end our lives. what you have proved is that you are deeply suffering and in need of help.
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Peace Carlee.
I have nothing worthwhile to say to you.
Your Creator has. Keep searching for your answer/s. Hope you will find what you are looking for.
You are in control of your choice and decision.
Peace. -
No, the Quran claims there's a god who's "capable of all things", unless you're trying to say your god is then not omnipotent.
Yes there's a Power/Force that drives all things..
It also claims he "knows everything". I'm also pretty sure it says somewhere there're no limits to his mercy. Even mainstream Islam teaches this, and it gives a much more sinister impression of "God" than any Quran-alone sect.
So?
Again I see the tendency of 'viewing God as a human'.. approach.. which is common in the west...
And since It is not It but a He.. you start to put judgement to Him...Why don't you blame the volcano for erupting? Earth crust to be moving? (and cause an earthquake which killed millions of species) or Meteorites to be falling? (And killed millions of species including Dinosaurs) or Star exploding?? (And killed not only millions of creatures but many planets as well)
And let's say next year is the end of this universe... and all planets, stars and galaxies plus any living things inside of it shall be destroyed...
What would you do with that fact? Blaming It/Him as well?
You can't put the blame on It who destroyed everything because It created all of it in the first place...He/It doesn't need you and/or your 'acceptance' that He/It exists...
As He/It continues to exist and exerted all of His/It power... even when you say It/He doesn't exist..
Who do you think you are? You're just a very little tiny specks among zillions of It's creation...
It's the other way around... you need Him/It... or to put it in a street slang.. 'your sorry arse depends on Him/It'..Salam / Peace
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Yes there's a Power/Force that drives all things..
So?Again I see the tendency of 'viewing God as a human'.. approach.. which is common in the west...
And since It is not It but a He.. you start to put judgement to Him...Why don't you blame the volcano for erupting? Earth crust to be moving? (and cause an earthquake which killed millions of species) or Meteorites to be falling? (And killed millions of species including Dinosaurs) or Star exploding?? (And killed not only millions of creatures but many planets as well)
And let's say next year is the end of this universe... and all planets, stars and galaxies plus any living things inside of it shall be destroyed...
What would you do with that fact? Blaming It/Him as well?
You can't put the blame on It who destroyed everything because It created all of it in the first place...He/It doesn't need you and/or your 'acceptance' that He/It exists...
As He/It continues to exist and exerted all of His/It power... even when you say It/He doesn't exist..
Who do you think you are? You're just a very little tiny specks among zillions of It's creation...
It's the other way around... you need Him/It... or to put it in a street slang.. 'your sorry arse depends on Him/It'..Salam / Peace
Salaam,
bravo bravo bravo
Very well said bro. May my and your TheCreator bless you.
mmKhan
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I'm not respecting other members, though all the insulting posts aimed at yours truly (like ones saying I'm "deaf, blind, and dumb" is not a sign of disrespect. I wouldn't be surprised if after making you look this bad, you would agree to said hateful insults.
It's sad people are too lazy to read through a topic they decide to give bans in, or were you upset after the fact there's no deity of boundless power and mercy was made clear to you?
Replies to the last responses to me in order since I don't find them quote-worthy
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"Mental suffering is a symptom of our inability to reason" is your argument. Alright, and a merciful all-powerful god out there is ok with this suffering happening. Never mind how it, in the first place lets it be that a person is "unable" to reason. Right.
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Another person who doesn't read. I knew someone was going to use that against me. It's what happens when you no longer have a valid argument to make, not that you ever had one.
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"My creator" half the time doesn't even make sense. Reading the Quran is like reading Yoda talk, and it cares about you so much that it spends the first 200 or so verses talking about a story so irrelevant to you and your spiritual health about a 3000 year old dude who for all we know didn't even exist.
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This is also pretty irrelevant. You're arguing there's still a god with all this power that created everything and blah blah blah. It still does not address my posts in any relevant manner, not even much the opening post.
-EDIT- & the Quran gives a "Western" description of the god, once again attributing traits like "all-powerful", "just", and "merciful" (and not just simply "the driving force of everything" as you claim), things that are outright and ridiculously wrong with what goes on in this world. It even claims to have emotions, what with it being "angry" and "satisfied" from our doings, and even attributes body parts ("the hand of...", "in the eyes of..." to itself. Human-like and Western? I think so.
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-EDIT- & the Quran gives a "Western" description of the god, once again attributing traits like "all-powerful", "just", and "merciful" (and not just simply "the driving force of everything" as you claim), things that are outright and ridiculously wrong with what goes on in this world. It even claims to have emotions, what with it being "angry" and "satisfied" from our doings, and even attributes body parts ("the hand of...", "in the eyes of..." to itself. Human-like and Western? I think so.
It is... as Quran main target audience are middle-easterners with centuries old habits of 'personifying thus deitifying everything'. (God of the Sky, God of the desert, God of the mountain, God of the ocean, God of the Penis, God of Vagina etc..)
Salam / Peace
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Ok, so what are you implying? That we concede the Quran is wrong with what it says and that the truth is uglier than what it suggests, i.e. the world is the way it is. It may have a "driving force", though no god with the attributes it (the Quran) claims that god has. Perhaps the wording is so off with the Quran I'm hardly seeing the purpose of reading it any longer.
If this is the consensus we can reach in this "all support for the belief in God" forum, then I'm down with that.
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Peace Carlee.
Whether _ that is it- depends on you. If you are expecting this forum or any other man made system to help you reach " the belief in GOD", I am afraid you are wasting your time.
Only your Creator Alone can do that. He knows you deep down, every thought you are thinking or will think, and if there is no sincerity there, you will fail..It is as simple as that.
Peace. -
Alright. I think I'm done here and that pretty much everything has been said, and in the future I'll make another topic about something, with the assumption the Quran is right for the sake of that topic (or if there's already a relevant topic, I'll add to it).
Take care all.