I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today
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Hello @donnyw, you seem to be a very good pupil of late Mr. Rashad Khalifa, PhD, to whom goes every possible credit for the modern Quran-alone Hadith-free movement, from which so many feed now. As well as the existence of this Forum, too (it is not to say that Quran-alone movement didn't exists in remote past, even at dawn of Islam)
To me, the only tangible proof that the Quran was from God, was the 19-miracle, until I realized that any outstanding Jewish Kabbalist or Gematria expert could produce it as well, not to mention any contemporary computer nerd. But even that 19-miracle was disproved, or shown as fraud, by many threads in this Forum, from Arab-speaking people. Perhaps they saved me time to check it for myself.
By the way, most of stuff that you write can be read in the Khalifa-inspired sites like
http//www.masjidtucson.org/
https//sites.google.com/site/evidenceofgod/
http//submission.org/#/d/Home.html
http//www.islamrevolution.org/etc, there are many more...
we can't meet Him or see Him physically, remember when David (if i'm not mistaken) wants to see God physically? Mountains was crushed even before God show Himself, he fell unconscious.
And yes, you are mistaken, it was Moshe-Rabinu, Moses, or Musa as he is called Arabic in the Quran.
It all started from there, Moses being the very first one to speak to god and hear his voice and receiving the Law (written & oral as they say). But I am not going to go into that now, it would lead us too far, really. But we all know who is God's chosen people, don't we?I am just wondering how God planned to give a chance for redemption to Japanese people for instance? How would they "remember" that their souls swore witnessing that god is one? Did he intend that they also learn Arabic to read the Quran too?
Or, just by being born outside of our little bunch who is studying the Quran IN THIS MANNER, they are condemned not to be redeemed?One of the things that bothers me too much in this Forum, is that there are so many people who interpret god's will or god's word as if they knew it for sure...
But gentlemen, Jewish Rabies are much, much better at that! -
Peace good logic,
It is for some. What Bigmo and ayman brought up can be seen in the refusal to consider an alternate pov, a different and valid way of taking the verses to disallow a problematic conclusion. Besides, it takes time for someone to fully reject something as untrue if you've believed in it completely before. Which leads to two possibilities imo, either the announcement was rash and the person is still on the fence in which case my advise would be to examine thoroughly and with patience, no need to jump the gun and one doesn't have to believe in anything to do that (or even announce such)...or that it's already rejected no matter what based on whatever conclusions and this exercise right here is just subjective validation etc. There is a third possibility, but I don't think that's accurate for now.
Upon the battle of conscience vs "something which people considered as holy" I always sided with my conscience..
I agree with you. Well said. It carries a slight danger with it of accurately discerning the difference in what could be considered conscience and other stuff but that is dealt with by examining and re-examining what one believes in and why etc.Another summary from this discussion are
- There are people who idolize the Quran
- There are people who think that Quran need to be 'defended'.. and by doing so it will please their deity.. and by pleasing their deity they're expecting a reward (in heaven or on this world) from their deity.
- Paganism culture is still alive and well among us..
Agreed. There could be other possibilities for 2 as well. Could also be their form of validation for example.
peace
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Peace savage-carrot.
No matter which way you look at it , there is only one "truth".
Compromising and pleasing others is not the choice offered in the scripture.
The choice is " GOD" or "others".
If anything conflicts/contradicts with the word of GOD, then it is not the truth, whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant.
Peace.
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Again I have the impression that the main theme of this thread that @Faithful Jinn posed so well in the beginning, is not grasped.
It is whether the Quran is from God, as a manual for men how to live, the best instruction manual with laws, being from God, since God created men and knows exactly what it is all about, or it is not?
And, if it is direct word from God, and a message for all times and all humanity, how do we know it is so?
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Besides, it takes time for someone to fully reject something as untrue if you've believed in it completely before......one doesn't have to believe in anything to do that (or even announce such)...o example.
so true. being a former hadith follower, took years and asking God for guidance to reject. you can have issues with somethings in the koran or God. wasn't it prophet lot (correct me if i am wrong) that turned away. so as bigmo says need to be honest to yourself as to why you turn away or why you reject. don't have to understand everything. we never can. we never will. so accept that fact. we are limited.
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And, if it is direct word from God, and a message for all times and all humanity, how do we know it is so?
either you believe it or you don't. just because you or i don't believe in God doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. just the same doesn't matter if i believe or disbelieve and the reasons if the Koran is the word of God.
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Peace savage-carrot.
No matter which way you look at it , there is only one "truth".
Compromising and pleasing others is not the choice offered in the scripture.
The choice is " GOD" or "others".
If anything conflicts/contradicts with the word of GOD, then it is not the truth, whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant.
Peace.
I agree with you that there is truth. Not sure why you brought up compromise or pleasing others etc?
so true. being a former hadith follower, took years and asking God for guidance to reject. you can have issues with somethings in the koran or God. wasn't it prophet lot (correct me if i am wrong) that turned away. so as bigmo says need to be honest to yourself as to why you turn away or why you reject. don't have to understand everything. we never can. we never will. so accept that fact. we are limited.
Think it was Yunus you meant? I agree with you, in fact I think that's one of the reasons why we are told to have patience.
Peace
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Peace all.
I will close with this final reply in this topic. I am not asking anyone to do anything. I believe strongly in " freedom of choice".
I have chosen to accept " Qoran" after solid proof came to me from the Creator. I call to GOD Alone, anyone who wishes to choose "GOD"
http//www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/
7352 Does each one of them want to receive the scripture personally??
762 We created the human from a liquid mixture, from two parents, in order to test him. Thus We made him a hearer and a seer ( and thinker)?
763 We showed him the two paths, then he is either appreciative ( loyal to GOD) or unappreciative ( loyal to ?others?)?
( The choice is yours?)
320 If they argue with you, then say? I have simply submitted myself (and I am loyal) to GOD, I and those who follow me ( in my submission and loyalty to GOD ALONE!)? You shall proclaim to those who received the scripture ( all the religions out there that follow a scripture!) as well as those who did not? Would you submit ( and stay loyal to GOD ALONE!) ? If they submit, then they will be guided, but if they turn away ( stay divided, loyal to their idols) your sole mission is to deliver this message. GOD is seer of all people.?
Peace.
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Peace all!
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I was just wondering... whether FaithfulJinn believes in Allah as an entity that has created the creation? I couldn't make out from all these pages, or perhaps it just escaped me. I feel the original issue is whether the quran is or isn't the direct work of God, as claimed by itself. At the same time I feel a doubt about God being or not being from the OP... but it may be just me.. I might be mistaken in this feeling. So how is it?
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I think that just because one would come to a conclusion that the quran is not from God... it doesn't mean the idea of God is false... those two are not dependent in that way... but many people of other religions or atheists use this kind of logic... i.e. quran has errors, therefore Allah doesn't exist. I also think that one may "leave" the quran during some phase in life, because there are other things that one needs to work on... and then one may perhaps again "find' the quran.. and now in a totally different light... why not?
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Let's all remember that Allah works in mysterious, bizarre, odd, unexpected and amazing ways... so we may for example gain a belief in Allah through something which is false... that we later realize is false, but we remain believing in Allah since this belief is not dependent on the initial trigger, since one's experience and understanding has now developed above and beyond that initial trigger, that turned out to be false. I'm just saying that we cannot grasp Allah even with our logic. We can however have a desire for truth. If we really have a SINCERE desire for truth, we are usually led to the truth in different ways... but this is of course not a journey that has an end... it is continuously ongoing. That's why it is so dangerous to think that one has THE answer to something. It should be enough to just strive towards greater and greater understanding, more and more, deeper and deeper truth and clear vision of it. We should all crave for truth, whatever it may be. And by the way, it comes in stages. One is mistaken if one thinks that one has finally found IT... THE truth.... no, there are many, many layers of understanding of everything... one layer more truthful than the other... so we should keep striving, but not think that we have reached the end.
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A very dangerous, or harmful, or misleading, thing is to get a wrong idea of what God is. This can ruin one's entire outlook on life and the world... just due to some faulty concepts in our own mind. I personally used to prefer to use the word 'God' (and still do depending on with whom I'm speaking), but then I started to dislike it coz this word contained so may ideas and concepts that were limiting the concept of the Creator. Perhaps I didn't believe in these "personified" and "materialistic" ideas or concepts, but they were still attached to the word 'God', so I thought it was best not to use the word 'God'. I now use the word 'Allah', especially in my inner 'talk' and communication... and I can do this without having much baggage attached to the word 'Allah' since I'm not from a so called muslim country, society or family. However, sometimes I feel it is almost better to use no word at all (if possible) coz we should not associate anything with Allah (as per the quran, but also as per common sense (mine)). I think that we can get a more accurate picture of Allah, and get a better understanding, and avoid more associations if we instead of trying to think of what Allah is, we can think of what Allah is NOT. This excludes things, and liberates the idea, instead of boxing and framing it. We cannot grasp Allah, so I think it's better to get closer to the truth by realizing what Allah is NOT.
Cheers ;D
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Hello @donnyw, you seem to be a very good pupil of late Mr. Rashad Khalifa, PhD
Hello Godsubmitter, I dont know Dr Rashad personally and when I read his articles he already passed away, anyhow I dont consider myself his pupil, as true believer we should be only pupil of Allah. Anyhow I admit that his idea bring me to Quran alone, and I believe in 19 miracle and agree with many of his view which I can verify in Quran myself.
To me, the only tangible proof that the Quran was from God, was the 19-miracle, until I realized that any outstanding Jewish Kabbalist or Gematria expert could produce it as well, not to mention any contemporary computer nerd. But even that 19-miracle was disproved, or shown as fraud, by many threads in this Forum, from Arab-speaking people. Perhaps they saved me time to check it for myself.
To me, there are lot of tangible proof that Quran from God, so even let say there is no miracle of 19, I still find Quran offer many miracles which now some has been proven by science. But even if no proof that I can witness of, I will still follow Quran and believe it from God, as God said in Quran, for real believer they will know this Quran like his own child, so this give us hint that even without any proof or miracle, any real believer will know that Quran contain the truth from God. Probably that just the instinct.
I'm interested to know if you can give me link to Jewish Kabalist or Gematria expert that can produce something similar like miracle of 19, or any book that has distinct numerical or numbering such Quran who has word of month 12 times and word of days 365 times, something like that if you will. I want to learn more.
...Perhaps they saved me time to check it for myself.
Well, have you forgot the rule of thumb Never believe anything until you check yourself?
I strongly suggest you to check and verify all so called proof and information yourself, as it can be the matter of heaven and hell.
Just my 2cents.Thanks!
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we can argue, debate, discuss, go in circles. no one has died and come back to tell us for sure there is or is not a God, life hereafter and that the Koran is word of God and not innovation of men. fact is no one of know for certain about the 'Truth'. it is what you believe.
if in fact the words of the koran are from God - that is the Truth then Faithful-jinn is wrong. if in fact the words of the Koran are not from God then i am wrong. we will surely all find out for a fact not here or in our life time but after we die. the "Truth" whatever it is stands on its own irrespective of anyone's views/beliefs. so either you believe it to be true or you don't or you are on the fence.
so there are those who will believe in the Koran as from God and then there are those who will not. i believe in the koran and faithful-jinn doesn't. i guess we will just have to wait till the next life to see who is right and who is not. we will all find out what we disagreed on, were at variance with and the Truth.
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we can argue, debate, discuss, go in circles. no one has died and come back to tell us for sure there is or is not a God, life hereafter and that the Koran is word of God and not innovation of men. fact is no one of know for certain about the 'Truth'. it is what you believe.
if in fact the words of the koran are from God - that is the Truth then Faithful-jinn is wrong. if in fact the words of the Koran are not from God then i am wrong. we will surely all find out for a fact not here or in our life time but after we die. the "Truth" whatever it is stands on its own irrespective of anyone's views/beliefs. so either you believe it to be true or you don't or you are on the fence.
so there are those who will believe in the Koran as from God and then there are those who will not. i believe in the koran and faithful-jinn doesn't. i guess we will just have to wait till the next life to see who is right and who is not. we will all find out what we disagreed on, were at variance with and the Truth.
But the Qur'an itself acknowledges that either it is not 100% the Truth or that having 100% Truth is not necessary for salvation. Belief in God and good deeds are enough for paradise and you don't need Qur'an. This is because the Qur'an says Christians, Sabians, and Jews will enter paradise if they believe and do good deeds.
I doubt the divinity of the Qur'an but I'm not against the idea of God. I'm just not sure if the idea of God depicted in the Abrahamic faiths is true.
The reason I now am skeptical of this is that, after an objective view of this, I literally have zero reason to believe that these holy books are true. Some people here are saying that one doesn't need Qur'an or holy books which I would agree with.
What they're ignoring though is the fact that these holy books are the BASIS for the belief system or way of life which people practice. Let's forget about Abraham and the other prophets for a moment and talk about us people today. God has not sent us any prophets and He has not spoken to us directly. We rely on these thousand year old books to tell us everything we now about God. Without these holy books people would have NO REASON to believe in heaven, hell, angels, jinn, sin, judgment, etc.
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Does the Qur'an actually say that it is the direct literal word of God? I recall verses saying it is the inspired word of God but that may have just been those translations.
Certainly i can admit there are verses of the Qur'an which cast doubt, but they can be easily explained, for example, a verse often used for criticism is the one which says the sun wont overtake the moon, which implies the sun and moon orbit the earth, how ever, it doesn't directly say that, plus, considering the Qur'an is aimed at all humans for all time, it makes perfect sense to tell people the sun wont over take the moon, from a perspective on earth. You have to consider that it's designed to be understandable to everyone.
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But the Qur'an itself acknowledges that either it is not 100% the Truth or that having 100% Truth is not necessary for salvation. Belief in God and good deeds are enough for paradise and you don't need Qur'an. This is because the Qur'an says Christians, Sabians, and Jews will enter paradise if they believe and do good deeds.
ok if you don't believe that the Koran is the truth then you can't really talk about the contents of the koran. so you have rejected the koran which means you have rejected what the quran says about nazreans (not christians who believe jesus is son of God), sabians, jews, or whoever does good deeds will enter paradise. so, this verse is not the truth then.
like i said what lead you to reject the koran is what lead me towards it. men surely would not have said any other community would enter paradise. ask an average mainstream muslim for example, s/he will tell you that if you don't pray, fast, wear a hijab, following hadiths (their system of belief) then you are going to hell. each group will tell you that you have to belong to their group for salvation. if the koran was written by men hundreds of years ago, don't you think it would be more like hadiths claiming that hell will be filled up with women? or that only arabs will go to heaven or muslims or the elite or whatever? well, just think about it for a moment. think about human nature and behavior. given human nature, you really think group of arab men especially would have said... you can be a jew and go to heaven if you do good deeds.
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But the Qur'an itself acknowledges that either it is not 100% the Truth or that having 100% Truth is not necessary for salvation. Belief in God and good deeds are enough for paradise and you don't need Qur'an. This is because the Qur'an says Christians, Sabians, and Jews will enter paradise if they believe and do good deeds.
So why are you so hung up on the book?
You said yourself that you have experienced God. You said that parts of the Koran move you. What does that tell you? It says you would like a god to be there to provide comfort and provide a great afterlife as reward for a life you lived in good faith and adhering to prescribed practises.
Yet you doubt the details. Be practical. Draw the spiritual guidelines you need and consolidate what is left with what you are prepared to accept. I maintain it is more important to be a good person and set a good example for others than following dogmatic rituals to a T.
A merciful god should appreciate that.
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What they're ignoring though is the fact that these holy books are the BASIS for the belief system or way of life which people practice. Let's forget about Abraham and the other prophets for a moment and talk about us people today. God has not sent us any prophets and He has not spoken to us directly. We rely on these thousand year old books to tell us everything we now about God. Without these holy books people would have NO REASON to believe in heaven, hell, angels, jinn, sin, judgment, etc.
adam and eve believed in God. so the concept of God existed well before torah, bible and koran. right? now would i have a reason to believe in God if it were not for these holy books. yes. absolutely i have reasons to believe in God, heaven and hell. heck, i'd be the most disappointed soul if there was no heaven or hell. sometimes i think the only reason why i believe in God and life hereafter is because i want to see justice. hard for me to believe that people can get away with things. oh yes, personally i have a reason to believe in God and the life hereafter.
i have to disagree with you in saying that the koran is the basis of belief system or way of life which people practice. i'd say hadiths and culture/traditions are what people practice.
for me koran written down hundreds of years ago explains things and is a source of guidance/healing in my life. works for me.
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adam and eve believed in God. so the concept of God existed well before torah, bible and koran. right? now would i have a reason to believe in God if it were not for these holy books. yes. absolutely i have reasons to believe in God, heaven and hell. heck, i'd be the most disappointed soul if there was no heaven or hell. sometimes i think the only reason why i believe in God and life hereafter is because i want to see justice. hard for me to believe that people can get away with things. oh yes, personally i have a reason to believe in God and the life hereafter.
i have to disagree with you in saying that the koran is the basis of belief system or way of life which people practice. i'd say hadiths and culture/traditions are what people practice.
for me koran written down hundreds of years ago explains things and is a source of guidance/healing in my life. works for me.
If you were born in a world where nobody practiced religion and religious dogma didn't exist why would you ever believe in heaven, hell, or judgment? What would make you come to that conclusion without some sort of precedent for your beliefs?
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ok if you don't believe that the Koran is the truth then you can't really talk about the contents of the koran.
Yes I can.
so you have rejected the koran which means you have rejected what the quran says about nazreans (not christians who believe jesus is son of God), sabians, jews, or whoever does good deeds will enter paradise. so, this verse is not the truth then.
like i said what lead you to reject the koran is what lead me towards it. men surely would not have said any other community would enter paradise.
Why not? It makes perfect sense for Muhammad to say the Jewish and Christian communities would also enter paradise especially when he had to seek aid from the Medina Jews.
ask an average mainstream muslim for example, s/he will tell you that if you don't pray, fast, wear a hijab, following hadiths (their system of belief) then you are going to hell. each group will tell you that you have to belong to their group for salvation. if the koran was written by men hundreds of years ago, don't you think it would be more like hadiths claiming that hell will be filled up with women? or that only arabs will go to heaven or muslims or the elite or whatever? well, just think about it for a moment. think about human nature and behavior. given human nature, you really think group of arab men especially would have said... you can be a jew and go to heaven if you do good deeds.
Yes. I really do think a group of Arab men would say that. Just because the hadith are stupid doesn't make the Qur'an holy.
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Yes I can.
Why not? It makes perfect sense for Muhammad to say the Jewish and Christian communities would also enter paradise especially when he had to seek aid from the Medina Jews.
Yes. I really do think a group of Arab men would say that. Just because the hadith are stupid doesn't make the Qur'an holy.
bravo