I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today

Faithful-Jinn

well since your not sharing which verses make u question its validity, i can only say i pray you come to your senses

I'm not ready to write a long speel tonight about my issues with the Qur'an but I'll attempt to do so tomorrow.

Apparently you lack reading comprehension skills. I said I didn't feel like writing a long post tonight criticizing the verses I take issue with. Furthermore you couldn't respond to any of my doubts that didn't involve a specific verse but logical skepticisms.

Despite your faith in Qur'an it seems I'm not the only one Allah has made senseless.

357

Apparently you lack reading comprehension skills. I said I didn't feel like writing a long post tonight criticizing the verses I take issue with. Furthermore you couldn't respond to any of my doubts that didn't involve a specific verse but logical skepticisms.

Despite your faith in Qur'an it seems I'm not the only one Allah has made senseless.

Books are written by men for improvement advancement-its all for a great cause, and so they are devine. But you just need to look to the human being and other living things -so complicated and advanced, evolved over billions of years by a forces or forces - it is these that we should know of and consider devine.

So much life on earth , something has brought it about , force or forces, what ever they or it , you need to know them for they are constructive , and not destructive.

peace

unknownuser

The only thing I can think of that truly makes me doubt whether I'm right or not is I don't think any man is smart enough or devious enough to create a way to control and influence so many human beings.

Yeah that is my main reason in believing that revelations are just too fancy to be a 'brainwashing utensil' and just that....

I don't know what to say...I can't even get myself to discourage you, just make sure you have read it well before moving on is all I can say.. for the knowledge if nothing else....I plan to read all the holy books...maybe just maybe...God is a collective of all those puzzles out there.....

johan

I'm focusing on the Qur'an as a whole and its own claims to divinity. I'm focusing on the morality it preaches as well as the logic and reason of its view on God and His attributes. It's more than just finding contradiction.

Salam Faithful-Jinn,
I have a feeling that you have tended to look at Allah SWT from the darker side pov..
I wish that you'd concentrate more on his brighter side, cuz His love outweighs anything else..

And I don't think it would take intense study to throw together the myths of the Bible and mix it into the Qur'an. There were Arab Jews/Christians during that time I believe and I also believe that many of the Arabs knew of the stories.

truth has been around since ages ago, but disinfo was also there to stay..
the problem is how was he able to filter so many disinfos without some sort of divine guidance?

I'm not ready to write a long speel tonight about my issues with the Qur'an but I'll attempt to do so tomorrow.

i hope by then your mind rests to the truth that Allah is the Most Merciful

The bottom line is I don't see why an omniscient God would make such a controversial and divisive revelation. Three Abrahamic faiths worship the same God and all of us fighting amongst ourselves and within our own religions. The sunnis claim that you can't even understand the Qur'an without being an Arabic speaker. There is nothing universal about that.

it could have been other than in arabic, but then again the arabs would have complained why hadn't it be in arabic..
the point is language is not the barrier..
it's the mindset, and the mindset in a universal language higher than any human known language..

If people can only believe if God wills them to believe (10.100) why would He then punish people who were destined to disbelieve by His own command? The believers would look at my skepticism and say I have a disease in my heart. If that is true then God put it there.

if only you'd blame more on yourself than God..
i have an analogy, say you're a magnet of 1T and you were given a choice of moving a metal to the N or to S
at some point in time that choice is yours to make alone, but at other times God turns on His own magnet of 10T pulling to S
are you to blame for what God's action effected you?
well..
what if you were only responsible for those times where the choice is yours only to make and was not intervened by Allah?
when would that be?
consider that the eye can only capture images only at a certain fraction of a second say 40 fps, then those moments are your domain of responsibility;
consider that another (not necessarily Divine, say angelic) eye have higher frames per second say 10000000fps so that 9999960 frames other than what you saw was acted upon it in a force other then your force of 10T to N without you noticing it..
you'll probably be surprised by the outcome..

I feel like this faith is an enemy of knowledge, questioning, logic, and critical thinking (5.101). I should be able to question it and become a stronger Muslim for it but right now I'm not finding God in the Qur'an like I used to. It feels like a system meant only to propagate itself, dissuade critical thinking and deviation, and punish those who go against the established norms.

When does one need to stop questioning Allah SWT for definitive divine revelations, I think that's a more appropriate and reasonable question?
Most of the times this world is just too complicated for us to fathom..
We need to admit that there are things that we just can't yet understand, and would require more than a lifetime to fathom it's complexity
and if we question Allah SWT seeking for definitive answers from Him by way of divine revelation and not by our own way of exploration we might end up, based on our lack of the wholeness of knowledge, disbelieving..
I think that He would prefer to embed riddles rather than frontal declaration that would put us in a state of disbelief..
this is not the state that God want us to be in..
He doesn't want to put us in a position that we will be in dissonance with the fundamental laws of nature..
the laws that says "the disbelievers will have miserable life here and here after"

IMHO, it's because either you resonate in the same Most High "frequency", or you be distorted, dissolved and shattered by the Most High "frequency"..

The only thing I can think of that truly makes me doubt whether I'm right or not is I don't think any man is smart enough or devious enough to create a way to control and influence so many human beings.

I would definitely agree with you..
And I think that is why Allah SWT is not anything like that of His creation..

wallahua3lam

Aryan_Warrior

Peace,

Sorry to hear you are leaving especially with all great fights that you put up against traditionalists on that OTHER message board (yes i'm someone you may know from that board, don't mention your guess here XD) anyways can ask what is your identity now? Are you a deist now? An atheist? Orsomething else?

Anyways i'm not asking you to list them all but can you list at least one of these "contradiction" as i'm quite curious as are others and maybe we can even provide answers cause as far as i'm aware the Quran is without contradiction

Jafar

Although I disagree with your conclusion but I would like to say

Congratulations to you for following what you think is right...

Billions.. yes billions of people lived a good life without ever reading the Quran...
At the end of the day it's your deed that count (and not your belief)

Salam / Peace

Philosopher

Apparently you lack reading comprehension skills. I said I didn't feel like writing a long post tonight criticizing the verses I take issue with. Furthermore you couldn't respond to any of my doubts that didn't involve a specific verse but logical skepticisms.

Despite your faith in Qur'an it seems I'm not the only one Allah has made senseless.

its your decision if you havent shared what you have a problem with. but perhaps it would have been better if you shared what verse you have a problem with. It would have been much.more useful for everyone.

its like writing i dont accept einsteins work but i.dont feel like explaining what i disagree with maybe some other time. why not create the thread when you are ready to explain what you dont think agree with. please dont be offended by this. i just genuinely hope you change your mind

Faithful-Jinn

First seeming contradiction is the creation of the universe one. Several verses say the universe was made in 6 days or 6 periods or 6 eras or what have you.

But verse 419-12 adds the days up to 8. It took 2 days to create earth, 4 days to fill it up, and another 2 days to create the heavens.

Next is the verses about the Christians and the Jews. We have verses saying that they can go to paradise(262, 569) and then we have verses saying not to take them as friends(551). What sense does this make? Furthermore we have a verse saying to slay them(929).

Next, the Qur'an says that all good is from Allah and all evil is from ourselves right after it just told us that all good that befalls us is by Allah's command (478,79). I argued this with a companion the other day and he didn't believe me until I showed him the verse. When I voiced my concern he simply said to ask someone of knowledge.

The Qur'an says that he creates man from a clot (of blood?) but that goes against science.

The Qur'an says in 541 that the moon was cleft asunder. I guess the way to explain this is that it is a figurative not a literal verse. Quite convenient.

The biggest problem I have is a logical concept. God says in the Qur'an that NOBODY believes except by His will (10100)

He goes on in the Qur'an several times to say that He hardens peoples hearts against belief and guides to Himself whom He wills and misguides others(1693).

Now why would an all-Merciful and all-Powerful God punish someone who He Himself has decreed should not believe in Him? This makes no logical sense.

EDIT What I will now propose are verses that are not contradictory in nature but I take issue with on moral or logical grounds.

First we have verse 434 which allows us to beat our wives. I take moral issue with this. Then We have the NUMEROUS verses about being able to have sexual relations with "those whom our right hands possess". Not only does this condone slavery but it also condones female sex slaves that are gained through war. God condones slavery and having sex with female captives?

The next verse I have issue with are verses that seem to serve the interest of Muhammad and don't seem too relevant for the believers. The seemingly self-serving verses where I can see the biases of a 7th century man seeping through. If this is the direct word of God, the universal message from God to ALL humans of ALL time periods, then that means every single letter of this revelation is crucial to mankind's salvation.

So why in the world do I find myself reading rules about when I go to the Prophet's house I should not annoy him and I should leave as soon as I'm finished with my business, I cannot look at his wives unless from behind a veil, nobody can marry his wives after he dies, and he is allowed more wives than other believers (3350-3353). These are the signs of a cult. These "revelations" seem to directly benefit Muhammad and seem somewhat petty for an omniscient God to be revealing to all mankind.

Now finally we have one of the verses of the sword. Verse 929. My issue with how we reconcile these verses is people always tell me I'm reading out of context. That I need the historical context in which Muhammad was at war with the tribes of Bani Israel and so it doesn't apply to me anymore.

if this verse applies to only single point in human history, and the Qur'an is God's revelation for ALL mankind of ALL times then why is it even there?

Why would God give us verses He doesn't want us to follow? Who chooses which verses should still be followed and which ones should be discarded and applied to only the believers of Muhammad's time?

GODsubmitter

The Qur'an is both beautiful, powerful, eloquent, appealing, profound, and seductive. The one word I wish I could use to describe it is "true".

I won't get into a super detailed post but today I came to the conclusion that the Qur'an, the absolute crux of my faith, is not the divine word of God. I converted 3 years ago from a family with no Muslims. I read the Qur'an, fasted, and prayed. I loved everything about Islam and it was the most beautiful thing to happen to me. My life turned around and my way of thinking changed. I've had doubts every once in a while but never substantial ones. Only now have I truly sought to look at the Qur'an objectively and whether or not a perfect God sent this book as a message for all mankind for all time.

It comes after deep study and logical thought. I basically started feeling true doubt about a month ago. I kept going back to the source of my faith which is the Qur'an. I would always laugh derisively of how Christians put so much stock in the Bible when it is clearly full of contradiction and it is illogical so I knew I had to put my own scripture under the magnifying glass.

I don't even know if Christians care if some of the Bible is wrong but the crux of Qur'anic authority and relevance is that the Qur'an is the DIRECT WORD OF GOD. Every single verse is a miracle! Every single letter was uttered by the Divine. That means if even one LETTER of this book disagrees with science, reality, logic, or human reason then I must question the entirety of the revelation.

So I scoured the Qur'an for contradiction, immorality, and anything that would suggest that a being less than perfect created it. I used my own translation of the Qur'an, online testimonies, online videos, and different translations and found several verses which simply don't reconcile with my logic, reason, and rationality as a human being. These verses do NOT come from a perfect God and therefore I must reject the revelation's claim to divinity.

By comparing the ATTRIBUTES of God laid out by the Qur'an and contrasting it with the realities of the actual revelation and its message I can not honestly say that this book is from God. Despite how much I want to believe that the Qur'an and Islam are true, I must be honest with myself.

It truly pains me to say that I must now as a seeker of truth, renounce my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an this day.

Thank you so much for your honest and sincere post!
I share the same feeling, and am quite near to the same conclusion as yours.
I come from Jewish-Christian background, without any Muslim in my broadest family, and I accepted wholeheartedly The Quran and Islam, without any prejudices and foreknowledge, three years ago.
I did five ritual contact prayers as taught by Mr Rashad Khalifa, PhD, without amiss, gave zakats and fasted the Ramadan properly et al...
Read many translations, started learning Arabic etc, etc
Accepted the Quran-Only Community as my benchmark.
Will not bore anybody with my personal experiences, autobiographies are so boring.
When joined this Forum full of hope, the first result was the destruction of any delusional religious stance, which I consider good.
The second result was sheer disgust at how many contradictions, and petty ego-fights in threads, about core issues, brought me to almost full contempt and indifference. I came to similar conclusions as yourself about discrepancies and contradictions in the core "Quranic" messages.
The last result of my pondering the whole Islam business is quite similar to yours, as I am almost convinced that the Quran is not divine, but the Torah, the sage Talmud and intriguing Kabbalah are much more interesting, intelligent and enlightening, in spite of being humanly created, not to mention Christianity as emotionally much more challenging and enriching.
I tend to agree with the great sage Maimonides (who wrote almost all his works in Arabic and knew Quran thru and thru) that God (Jews) created Christianity and Islam to bring low, primitive, illiterate people to the idea of God.
Actually I always wondered why highly intelligent Jewish theologians never had a good opinion of the Quran, and never fully accepted it. They just knew too well what was it all about...
There are so, so many proofs, and documents, witnessing the real origin and making of Islam to be mentioned here. I posted some of them elsewhere on this Forum.
Anyway, I am glad I read your post, and I am also very near to conclude my bizarre escapade to Islam pretty soon.
Thank you for your attention.

GODsubmitter

Your last post brother is simply brilliant!

Have not read something so honest and so clear about this issue for a long, long time!

Thank you.

I share all of it fully, and my doubts are as yours completely.

sun

mmkhan

The Qur'an is both beautiful, powerful, eloquent, appealing, profound, and seductive. The one word I wish I could use to describe it is "true".

I won't get into a super detailed post but today I came to the conclusion that the Qur'an, the absolute crux of my faith, is not the divine word of God. I converted 3 years ago from a family with no Muslims. I read the Qur'an, fasted, and prayed. I loved everything about Islam and it was the most beautiful thing to happen to me. My life turned around and my way of thinking changed. I've had doubts every once in a while but never substantial ones. Only now have I truly sought to look at the Qur'an objectively and whether or not a perfect God sent this book as a message for all mankind for all time.

It comes after deep study and logical thought. I basically started feeling true doubt about a month ago. I kept going back to the source of my faith which is the Qur'an. I would always laugh derisively of how Christians put so much stock in the Bible when it is clearly full of contradiction and it is illogical so I knew I had to put my own scripture under the magnifying glass.

I don't even know if Christians care if some of the Bible is wrong but the crux of Qur'anic authority and relevance is that the Qur'an is the DIRECT WORD OF GOD. Every single verse is a miracle! Every single letter was uttered by the Divine. That means if even one LETTER of this book disagrees with science, reality, logic, or human reason then I must question the entirety of the revelation.

So I scoured the Qur'an for contradiction, immorality, and anything that would suggest that a being less than perfect created it. I used my own translation of the Qur'an, online testimonies, online videos, and different translations and found several verses which simply don't reconcile with my logic, reason, and rationality as a human being. These verses do NOT come from a perfect God and therefore I must reject the revelation's claim to divinity.

By comparing the ATTRIBUTES of God laid out by the Qur'an and contrasting it with the realities of the actual revelation and its message I can not honestly say that this book is from God. Despite how much I want to believe that the Qur'an and Islam are true, I must be honest with myself.

It truly pains me to say that I must now as a seeker of truth, renounce my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an this day.

This is the result of your dream bro.

mmkhan

Faithful-Jinn

This is the result of your dream bro.

mmkhan

Excellent argument. Thank you for your solid evidence and well thought out argument.

Edit

Your last post brother is simply brilliant!

Have not read something so honest and so clear about this issue for a long, long time!

Thank you.

I share all of it fully, and my doubts are as yours completely.

sun

Thank you brother. I must admit I am extremely surprised to find that someone here actually agreed with me or felt the same way as me. I expected only skepticism. Good luck on your journey. The thing for me was that I had to accept I arrived at my current state of belief in a search for truth. I must put my search for truth before all things.

If God is truth then I pray that He guides me to Himself. If God is not truth then I must continue my search elsewhere.

I was attracted to Islam initially because I thought it was based on rationale and logic and reasoning and welcomed a monotheistic world view that could stand the test of critical thinking and deep criticism. Only when I had the COURAGE to face my beliefs and question the validity of why I believed what I believed did I overcome the barriers blocking my way to truth.

mmkhan

First seeming contradiction is the creation of the universe one. Several verses say the universe was made in 6 days or 6 periods or 6 eras or what have you.

But verse 419-12 adds the days up to 8. It took 2 days to create earth, 4 days to fill it up, and another 2 days to create the heavens.

I will try to answer your post by my TheCreator's permission, inshaAllah.

Problem with you brother is you are solely based on translation. 419-10 talks about "earth" only, making of it is 2 days , then keeping mountains in it and other things, all in 4 days . Then 4112 says 2 days for making of heavens and other thing in it .

Hence only 6 days in all. If you imagine there are not even small contradictions, how come such a big contradiction is left out? You may understand it if you take a close look.

Next is the verses about the Christians and the Jews. We have verses saying that they can go to paradise(262, 569) and then we have verses saying not to take them as friends(551). What sense does this make? Furthermore we have a verse saying to slay them(929).

Again problem with your understanding. You don't see the words used in AlQuraan, you took it as general understanding. 262 and 569 never said that Christians and Jews go to paradise. And also you missed all three conditions, 1) have to believe in Allah, 2) believe in hereafter 3) do corrected deeds, then their reward will be with their Lord and they will not fear nor they grieve. Where is paradise came in between?

929 asked you to slay Christians and Jews? Very well translated bro. Check again.

Next, the Qur'an says that all good is from Allah and all evil is from ourselves right after it just told us that all good that befalls us is by Allah's command (478,79). I argued this with a companion the other day and he didn't believe me until I showed him the verse. When I voiced my concern he simply said to ask someone of knowledge.

Again! You did not look at AlQuraan or its words used properly. Please look at Arabic words because "you" is used for singular as well as plural in English, this is a problem of English language not a problem of AlQuraan.

478 says whatever evil comes to THEM is from their hands, and everything good is from Allah.

479 says whatever good comes to YOU is from Allah and whatever evil comes to you is from your own hands .

The Qur'an says that he creates man from a clot (of blood?) but that goes against science.

Aayat needed!

Anyways, please check 225 and compare it so called science.

The Qur'an says in 541 that the moon was cleft asunder. I guess the way to explain this is that it is a figurative not a literal verse. Quite convenient.

Again translation problem. Please check 1334, 1990 , 594.

The biggest problem I have is a logical concept. God says in the Qur'an that NOBODY believes except by His will (10100)

He goes on in the Qur'an several times to say that He hardens peoples hearts against belief and guides to Himself whom He wills and misguides others(1693).

True, FINALLY God is the One who guides or misguides whom He wills. This is a big but concept you have to understand. God is the final channel for everything. Every deed has to get approval from God, either be it good or bad. If a person decides to get away from the path of Allah, until and unless Allah approves it, he is no way can get away from His path and vice versa.

Hence Allah is the one who guides or misguides whom He will, if He don't approve, the case gets back to normal. And He always try to protect and try to keep His servants on track. But people chose their way by force.

Hope you understand what I am saying.

Now why would an all-Merciful and all-Powerful God punish someone who He Himself has decreed should not believe in Him? This makes no logical sense.

This is also a big concept. I agree, this makes no logical sense, but it is not Allah who punishes you but it is you who put yourself in punishments.

We are in a huge program, designed by Allah, based on formulas. Everything is on your finger tips, clearly saying if you press this button, it will delete your files, if you press this button, it will format your hard disk, if you press this button, virus spread over all your contacts, etc.

Same way for goods, if you press this button, your system gets cleaned from viruses, if you press this button, all unnecessary files will be deleted from your hard disk, etc. etc.

Now its your choice to click what buttons you like, if you click wrong buttons knowingly, and if it effects your system, how can you blame Allah?

For example A Calculator based of formulas. If you click willingly 2 + 2 and love to get 5, you are not gonna get it, how much you try. This is how Allah system works. Everyone has the program on their finger tips and all are given free will to click what they want. So, please don't blame my and your TheCreator.

Your rest of the post also having problem with translations or your understanding. Please check or discuss in detail.

May Allah protect us and increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Imanajib

I must comment here, for I too have doubts about the Quran. However, I ABSOLUTELY do beleive it was sent down by God, as well as the Torah and the Gospel. But..... MAN got a hold of it, altered it, added, and subtracted to fit their liking.
I think the Quran is the less altered holy book because it was verbaly being passed.
I don't have the verse with me now, I beleive it's under "Mohamad", but when I was reading it, I felt it was added. And some other contradicting verses about killing and befriending jews and christians in one part says don't befriend them, another says it's ok.

I'm not going to get into that, but my point is, IT IS GODS WORD! Unfortunately, I believe it's altered and one day I wil post my findings and see what everyone else has to say.

Salam

GODsubmitter

Thank you brother. I must admit I am extremely surprised to find that someone here actually agreed with me or felt the same way as me. I expected only skepticism. Good luck on your journey. The thing for me was that I had to accept I arrived at my current state of belief in a search for truth. I must put my search for truth before all things.

If God is truth then I pray that He guides me to Himself. If God is not truth then I must continue my search elsewhere.

I was attracted to Islam initially because I thought it was based on rationale and logic and reasoning and welcomed a monotheistic world view that could stand the test of critical thinking and deep criticism. Only when I had the COURAGE to face my beliefs and question the validity of why I believed what I believed did I overcome the barriers blocking my way to truth.

Thank you brother!
I do agree with you and I do feel the same way as you do!
I admire your honesty for voicing clearly your sincere doubts which are mine, too.
I support you in your faithful search for Truth.
I was also attracted to Islam for the same reasons, and now I feel almost sad, as robbed, and even as someone fooled.
All that root-grammar-traslation slosh cannot deserve any serious respect.
I was even told that Quran has traps purposefully

But I just wanted to make it clear that God has no difficulty in expressing Himself, but these hurdles has been kept in AlQuraan to score your points. Who crossed more hurdles successively, he scores the most. That's simple it is.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604075.msg301410#msg301410

strange... hurdles... games... scores... ???

How bizarre for a god...

lordfox

Yet another that leaves Quranism, I should start counting now.

But of course, I too reject what you mistakenly denote as the Qu'ran, as the translations were proven to be corrupt, and the methodology wrong. Like Jafar pointed out, you do not need the Quran, or any other book to live as an honest man, for morality is universal, and the books, only reminders. I have found that most people who have studied the "Qu'ran" have come to the same conclusions as you, but fear veils their reason, and so they continue living in a lie.

Anyway, I applaud your honest and courage. Good luck for the rest!

GODsubmitter

Yet another one that leaves Quranism, I should start counting now.

But of course, I too reject what you mistakenly denote as the Qu'ran, as the translations were proven to be corrupt, and the methodology wrong. Like Jafar pointed out, you do not need the Quran, or any other book to live as an honest man, for morality is universal, and books, only reminders.

Good luck for the rest!

So god wrote the Quran for illiterate backward and primitive Arabs only?
Or for Arab aristocracy and elite? Translations not planned?
So it is not a universal message to all humanity and for all times, or is it?

And to which rest do you wish good luck? And what about the rest of the other rest? Or the ones who are not the rest? You do not wish them luck? ???

Bigmo

Conflicts with reason and logic or conflict with the realities of life? I always believed that doubts come from the experinces of life and not the verses of the Quran. The Quran may state that God is merciful, but if you are expriencing trauma and pain its hard to comprehend that. It might state that God is fully aware of what we do and He supports the rigteous.Tthat is hard to believe when you are down and oppressed.Iit may say the disbelievers will never prosper but that is hard to understand when your boss is one like that and has the upper hand over you. It may state etc, etc, etc.

lordfox

So god wrote the Quran for illiterate backward and primitive Arabs only?
Or for Arab aristocracy and elite? Translations not planned?
So it is not a universal message to all humanity and for all times, or is it?

And to which rest do you wish good luck? And what about the rest of the other rest? Or the ones who are not the rest? You do not wish them luck? ???

Why are you seeking defiance ? I meant good luck for the rest of his spiritual journey and life in general, I really cannot see how you misunderstood this. As for your question, it is interesting, the same could be argued for the previous revelations as well and sincerely, I do not know. How can a message be clear, when it cannot be understood universally, and can easily be intentionally obscured ? I am still unsure as to if, the Qu'ran claims itself to be for all times, and if it does, how and why, so I will abstain from commenting on that issue.

Bender