I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today

GODsubmitter

Well this first question is immaterial to me. Just because Muhammad could rhyme well and he had some palindromes is evidence of nothing. It's likely a mathematical probability in some languages that this happens occasionally in speech especially in a root based language like Arabic. This is no more evidence of divinity than a Dr. Seuss book.

First off the embryology in the Qur'an is speculated to have been plagiarized from greek philosophers like Aristotle and some greek guy named Galen. They had similar if not identical things to say on the Qur'an and they existed before Muhammad. So humans had this knowledge before the Qur'an existed. As for geology, oceanography, and astronomy what exactly does the Qur'an say that you find miraculous?

I believe the Qur'an has such vague claims about the natural universe that it could be re-interpreted in many ways to make sense with modern science but first I'll accept what specific claims you personally believe are miraculous.

I personally don't think that just because a book makes some vague and possibly correct scientific claims that it is from God. You underestimate the intelligence of ancient human civilizations. Even the ancient Egyptians who lived 3000 years before Muhammad were excellent in math and astronomy and humans have been using the stars to navigate since the dawn of civilization. I believe many of the claims in the Qur'an were either known at the time in history or directly plagiarized from another source or so vague that it could be correct.

But like I said which claims do you believe to be so miraculous and why exactly do you think the Qur'an is divine?

Excellent! bravo bravo bravo
Thank you @Faithful Jinn

Tislit_n_Unzar

Well this first question is immaterial to me. Just because Muhammad could rhyme well and he had some palindromes is evidence of nothing. It's likely a mathematical probability in some languages that this happens occasionally in speech especially in a root based language like Arabic. This is no more evidence of divinity than a Dr. Seuss book.

First off the embryology in the Qur'an is speculated to have been plagiarized from greek philosophers like Aristotle and some greek guy named Galen. They had similar if not identical things to say on the Qur'an and they existed before Muhammad. So humans had this knowledge before the Qur'an existed. As for geology, oceanography, and astronomy what exactly does the Qur'an say that you find miraculous?

I believe the Qur'an has such vague claims about the natural universe that it could be re-interpreted in many ways to make sense with modern science but first I'll accept what specific claims you personally believe are miraculous.

I personally don't think that just because a book makes some vague and possibly correct scientific claims that it is from God. You underestimate the intelligence of ancient human civilizations. Even the ancient Egyptians who lived 3000 years before Muhammad were excellent in math and astronomy and humans have been using the stars to navigate since the dawn of civilization. I believe many of the claims in the Qur'an were either known at the time in history or directly plagiarized from another source or so vague that it could be correct.

But like I said which claims do you believe to be so miraculous and why exactly do you think the Qur'an is divine?

I agree with your ideas Jinn.. glad im not the only quranist in this world that believes that about the Quran.. )

good_logic

Peace all.

What can I say?

26;225 Do you not see that their loyalty shifts according to the situation. (They are in!)?

2776 ? This Scripture ( Koran, the last testament) settles many issues for the children of Israel ( and all the other systems/ religions); Issues that they are still disputing.?

I say " believe in it or do not believe in it " I am not your guardian.

Peace.

hawk99

Well this first question is immaterial to me. Just because Muhammad could rhyme well and he had some palindromes is evidence of nothing. It's likely a mathematical probability in some languages that this happens occasionally in speech especially in a root based language like Arabic. This is no more evidence of divinity than a Dr. Seuss book.

First off the embryology in the Qur'an is speculated to have been plagiarized from greek philosophers like Aristotle and some greek guy named Galen. They had similar if not identical things to say on the Qur'an and they existed before Muhammad. So humans had this knowledge before the Qur'an existed. As for geology, oceanography, and astronomy what exactly does the Qur'an say that you find miraculous?

I believe the Qur'an has such vague claims about the natural universe that it could be re-interpreted in many ways to make sense with modern science but first I'll accept what specific claims you personally believe are miraculous.

I personally don't think that just because a book makes some vague and possibly correct scientific claims that it is from God. You underestimate the intelligence of ancient human civilizations. Even the ancient Egyptians who lived 3000 years before Muhammad were excellent in math and astronomy and humans have been using the stars to navigate since the dawn of civilization. I believe many of the claims in the Qur'an were either known at the time in history or directly plagiarized from another source or so vague that it could be correct.

But like I said which claims do you believe to be so miraculous and why exactly do you think the Qur'an is divine?

Spoken like the the devil himself
congradulations Jinn

Peace O0

GODsubmitter

Peace all.

What can I say?

26;225 Do you not see that their loyalty shifts according to the situation. (They are in!)?

2776 ? This Scripture ( Koran, the last testament) settles many issues for the children of Israel ( and all the other systems/ religions); Issues that they are still disputing.?

I say " believe in it or do not believe in it " I am not your guardian.

Peace.

(red underlined by me)
Hey @good logic,
And how the Qur'an is going to settle so many issues and disputes among the children of Islam and issues that they are disputing, ha? ???
Or Quran didn't even predict that there are going to be so many Islamic sects and different opinions, let alone different translations of the Quran?...
Even on this Forum people seem not to be able to agree even on the most important issues!

GODsubmitter

Spoken like the the devil himself
congradulations Jinn

Peace O0

himself?... speaking?...

Devil was invented by Xtians to boost their cult...
See "The Origin of Satan How Christians Demonized Jews, Pagans, and Heretics" by Elaine Pagels.
http//www.amazon.com/The-Origin-Satan-Christians-Demonized/dp/0679731180

And in Judaism, HaShatan is not even a noun! There is a concept of an "evil inclination" though, in everybody's (human) "heart".

So, what is your post expressing here, and how is it contributing to the thread, ha?

good_logic

Peace Godsubmitter.

Remember GOD Alone teaches/explains... HIS scripture.

Study it , submit to your creator,and find out for yourself.

Best of luck.
Peace.

Gnosis

Well this first question is immaterial to me. Just because Muhammad could rhyme well and he had some palindromes is evidence of nothing. It's likely a mathematical probability in some languages that this happens occasionally in speech especially in a root based language like Arabic. This is no more evidence of divinity than a Dr. Seuss book.

As-Salaam Alaikum,

It's not so much that Muhammad (pbuh) could rhyme well and had many palindromes that makes the Qur'an fascinating, it's the fact that this occured while still giving a message that makes sense and fits a mathmatical formula (19), all this while it wasn't written down but recited. Do you understand how hard something like that is? Try it in English, a language you can understand and see how hard it is, then imagine doing it in Arabic which would be harder since certain Arabic words have multiple meanings, etc. The Qur'an is for sure not a product of the human mind, but was channeled to the Prophet's (pbuh) spirit. Do you know about channeling? If so, then you can imagine how the Qur'an was revealed, atleast this is what I personally know from the things I've studied.

First off the embryology in the Qur'an is speculated to have been plagiarized from greek philosophers like Aristotle and some greek guy named Galen. They had similar if not identical things to say on the Qur'an and they existed before Muhammad. So humans had this knowledge before the Qur'an existed. As for geology, oceanography, and astronomy what exactly does the Qur'an say that you find miraculous?

I believe the Qur'an has such vague claims about the natural universe that it could be re-interpreted in many ways to make sense with modern science but first I'll accept what specific claims you personally believe are miraculous.

I personally don't think that just because a book makes some vague and possibly correct scientific claims that it is from God. You underestimate the intelligence of ancient human civilizations. Even the ancient Egyptians who lived 3000 years before Muhammad were excellent in math and astronomy and humans have been using the stars to navigate since the dawn of civilization. I believe many of the claims in the Qur'an were either known at the time in history or directly plagiarized from another source or so vague that it could be correct.

But like I said which claims do you believe to be so miraculous and why exactly do you think the Qur'an is divine?

I would just like to point out that Plato and Aristotle learned all their knowledge from the Ancient Africans (Egyptians) in their spiritual mystery schools which both of these men were initates in, so I agree with you that the knowledge did exist, but it was only known by the initates, not the general populace. So if you want to throw words around like "plagerized", you would have to say the greeks plagerized from the Africans...but plagerizism really isn't the case, it's just knowledge and tradition that was passed down from one initate to the next. Muhammad (pbuh) himself was an initate, that is why the Qur'an contains this information. No other scripture during his time was talking about this knowledge, only the occult centers of learning had this knowledge.

If everybody is left alone to form his opinions based on self-knowledge, and mankind is alone on this planet to create opinions about soul, spirit and invisible things, then there is no god who gave any scripture?

As-Salaam Alaikum,

Sorry for the confusion, the way I worded my post may have caused misunderstanding of what I was saying. Yes, Allah does exist, but I was simply pointing out it's not in the way mainstream thought thinks. Allah is not a diety, but is rather a creative force that penitrates within and throughout creation (573) for sake of discussion I'll liken him to the Force from Star Wars except that unlike the Force in Star Wars, this Force is also concious of itself and it's creation. Also, this Force manifests it's Will through man who was created as it's image and caliph (230). This is why the angels were told to prostrate to Adam (pbuh), because Allah was within Adam (pbuh) (234, 5016). So the proper understanding of Allah is that Allah is the Force that created and sustains existance and Allah's will is seated within the hearts of men.

With this understanding, you should be able to see that revelation of the Qur'an came as a result of deep meditation within the Prophet (pbuh) and not just a product of the Prophet's (pbuh) or another humans mind. The Gnostics called this sort of revelation "gnosis", hence the Qur'an itself is a book of gnosis. It came from the divine within, the Self. This is what I mean by Self Knowledge, Self Knowledge is knowledge of God and creation, because the Self is Allah. Don't confuse this with the false self (the Ego), but the true Self, which is divine and contains the Ruh of Allah. There's a saying that the Prophet (pbuh) himself said "He who knows his Self knows his Lord", and this is what is meant by that saying. Self Knowledge is the teachings of the Mystery Schools and it's initates, hence why in Ancient KMT (Egypt) outside the Temple of Luxor it is written "Man know thyself".

I highly recommend everyone to study the spiritual system of Ancient KMT's mystery schools along with Gnosticism in order to fully understand the reality of Allah and the truth of Islam, for I know for a fact that Islam based on the QUR'AN ALONE and not the Jesuit authored hadith is simply the Ancient traditions and knowledge of the initiates passed down. When you study these mystery systems and then reread the Qur'an, it will open up an entire universe of new understanding of the scriptures.

6619

Salaam Faithful jinn,

I am deeply sorry to see that you have renounced your faith.
All I am asking you is a favor
On Tuesday, August 14, it will be the night of Decree in the USA where I live, the night the Quran was revealed. I will publish on my website (http//www.islamrevolution.org/), God willing, an article that will provide what I believe are final, incontrovertible proofs that the Quran is the word of God.
How many times have you heard something that looks too good to be true or in my case looks like a ridiculous claim, and that really happens to be true? It almost never happens. But this times, I insist, I proclaim that it will happen, If God allows me to post the article (actually there will be several, but one in particular will be overwhelming).
So this is the favor I am asking you, as well as all the people who have a doubt that the Quran is divinely coded mathematically.

God bless you all.

Pierre

Indelwyn

Faithful Jinn,

Sorry it took me so long. I was speaking of the barriers salt vs. fresh water, the expansion of the universe, the seven different atmospheres. folding which formed the mountain ranges, how stars work, things not discovered until later.

I understand the stance on embryology. I just don't think it is a comparison, yes they had the assumptions, and many mistaken ideas. It was not until the microscope that things really were seen. Eggs and fertilization. I was not aware Muhammad has access to greek philosophies, it was not like the you could google it. Learning from others in those days was more in depth than today.

Perhaps I do underestimate the ancient civilizations. I understand they were smart in math and sciences, but they were still primitive compared to now.

I also still think the language and the syntax and palindromes is not an easy thing with languages. It is very hard to do, especially on the fly. Can you give me a sentence off the top of your hear without writing it down that means the same forwards and backwards and ties in to other sentences before and after? It is more than the Palindrome racecar.

But again thanks for the reply. As stated before, I respect your decision. Take care

Faithful-Jinn

Faithful Jinn,

Sorry it took me so long. I was speaking of the barriers salt vs. fresh water, the expansion of the universe, the seven different atmospheres. folding which formed the mountain ranges, how stars work, things not discovered until later.

I understand the stance on embryology. I just don't think it is a comparison, yes they had the assumptions, and many mistaken ideas. It was not until the microscope that things really were seen. Eggs and fertilization. I was not aware Muhammad has access to greek philosophies, it was not like the you could google it. Learning from others in those days was more in depth than today.

Perhaps I do underestimate the ancient civilizations. I understand they were smart in math and sciences, but they were still primitive compared to now.

I also still think the language and the syntax and palindromes is not an easy thing with languages. It is very hard to do, especially on the fly. Can you give me a sentence off the top of your hear without writing it down that means the same forwards and backwards and ties in to other sentences before and after? It is more than the Palindrome racecar.

But again thanks for the reply. As stated before, I respect your decision. Take care

I cannot do it on the fly and I doubt Muhammad did it on the fly either. The Qur'an took 22 years to reveal and compile and it wasn't like he was freestyle rapping the verses whenever someone asked him.

I repeat something like syntax and palindromes is is no way proof of God nor is any apparent "beauty". What would be amazing is if God had the Qur'an retain all its linguistic features in every single language known to man. Surely a minor feat for an omnipotent being. But even then I'd still be skeptical as that is not my only issue so the language of the Qur'an is besides the point.

As for your points about the scientific claims and human knowledge that lead people to believe that the Qur'an is divine, I say that this too is false for 2 reasons.

The verses of the Qur'an are so vague and ambiguous in many places that I'm sure they can be interpreted and reinterpreted to conform to a lot of scientific ideas. I'm sure if we found out that the sun went around the earth today and that humans descended from birds, that some clever Muslims would find new interpretations of the Qur'an to support the ideas and use it as dawah.
The mere possibility that other humans had this knowledge prior to Muhammad's lifetime sort of takes away the impact of it. Muslims make the claim that NO HUMAN BEING could possibly have known anything the Qur'an claims but I've given the greek example of embryology and I believe if I really dig into it, I can make an argument for other claims. Even the Hindu Rig Veda which precedes the Qur'an by at least a millennium has a creation cosmology that can be interpreted to conform to the Big Bang theory.

When I look at a lot of these claims now from a non-religious perspective I can see how this stuff could easily have come from mankind. The religious perspective however forces people into confirmation bias however, in which every single insignificant thing somehow points to God because subconsciously they are looking only to confirm their current beliefs.

But like I said there are many many issues I have not just science or linguistics.

johan

"O Allah! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell, and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise. But if I worship You for Your Own sake, grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty."

Salam Faithful Jinn,
I am sure Allah is that God who would answer this quote instead, wouldn't you think so?
"O Allah! If I worship You for fear of Hell, spare me from Your Hell, and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, include me in Your Paradise. And if I worship You for Your Own sake, grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty."

Edit

The religious perspective however forces people into confirmation bias however, in which every single insignificant thing somehow points to God because subconsciously they are looking only to confirm their current beliefs.

O, how beutiful a religion that would be to be inclusive of many kinds of religion wouldn't there be peace on earth on that basis alone.. they would put aside their differences in order to achieve one goal, peace on earth under His Guidance..

357

"O Allah! Surely you don't need me, but i have tried to serve your creation for fear of Hell, spare me from Your Hell, and have tried to serve your creation in the hope of Paradise, include me in Your Paradise. And if i have served You for Your Own sake.......

group

Zulf

No-one should be sad that FJ has renounced his faith. Perhaps it was a faith based on taking stories, rituals and peoples' opinions for granted, and not fueled by an inner conviction. If so, then it is good to renounce one's faith. Why? Well, it could be a step towards truth.

But I say 'could be', because it will only be as good as how sincere FJ's desire for truth is. And that no-one else can or should judge about. It might even be likely that FJ doesn't know himself that well, like so many others of us. But self knowledge is a journey. One has to make a choice to move towards truth, and first of all truth about one self. All other truths come after this. If one is not truthful, or clear sighted, or realistic, about oneself, then one will not come far in finding truth about the external realities either.

So, if we presume that FJ is very very sincere in his desire for truth, foremost about himself, and then all other things, whatever it might be, whatever it may point towards, just for the sake of truth being the truth... then renouncing his faith is a cleansing step on the way, and should not be seen as a sad thing... coz it is not like someone's leaving the club... it is just a step on his journey. Having a honest and sincere desire for truth will lead to exactly this.

Regarding the quran, I hope it is not also about whether Allah exists or not... coz that's a different story. Sincere, sincere , sincere desire for truth, whatever it may be, will solve this. Mind acrobatics and efforts in logic will only lead so far... and won't be able to produce much at all. Intelligence, IQ and the power of logic is absolutely no guarantee for seeing the more subtle realities of life. First "know thyself", then the rest will come along.

Peace!
sun

Faithful-Jinn

Salam Faithful Jinn,
I am sure Allah is that God who would answer this quote instead, wouldn't you think so?
"O Allah! If I worship You for fear of Hell, spare me from Your Hell, and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, include me in Your Paradise. And if I worship You for Your Own sake, grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty."

EditO, how beutiful a religion that would be to be inclusive of many kinds of religion wouldn't there be peace on earth on that basis alone.. they would put aside their differences in order to achieve one goal, peace on earth under His Guidance..

On the contrary my friend. One of Allah's names is Al-Haqq meaning the Truth.

The Truth is what I seek. The Truth is greater than the Bible, the Qur'an, Jesus, and Allah. The Truth is that which exists whether you believe in it or not.

The Truth should not be limited in ANY way. All religions limit God by their presuppositions about Him. Even now I'm limiting God by referring to God as "Him" which has a certain connotation.

The definition, history, laws, and attributes of God presented by the Abrahamic faiths do not ring truthful to me. Using my own human intellect I can no longer rationalize in my mind the existence of the Abrahamic God as truth nor can I accept the alleged revelations of the Bible and the Qur'an as truth. I am doing my best right now to study the actual historicity of the faiths in addition to the written word recorded in the Bible and Qur'an.

The more I study the historicity and the questionable verses of the scripture the more my doubt increases. If the Qur'an is truly the word of God not a single verse should crumble under the magnifying lense of human reason. Now at this idea you people may argue that the Qur'an is perfect it is only human beings that are fallible. You may tell me to throw away my own reason and accept the Qur'an as truth. You may tell me any fault I find within it is actually a personal fault of my own. I say then that you are slaves and you are sheep. Any belief system which tells me not to think for myself is a self-propagating cult.

If you have not looked at every aspect of the Qur'an and Islam as a whole, questionable or otherwise, then I accuse you of being as deaf, dumb, and blind as the Qur'an calls the disbelievers.

So far in my new found objective perspective of looking at religions and scriptures I have found nothing uniquely divine in any of them.

Be honest and analyze your OWN faith with the same critical thinking you apply to OTHER faiths. Only then can you find truth and distinguish falsehood.

GODsubmitter

The more I study the historicity and the questionable verses of the scripture the more my doubt increases. If the Qur'an is truly the word of God not a single verse should crumble under the magnifying lense of human reason. Now at this idea you people may argue that the Qur'an is perfect it is only human beings that are fallible. You may tell me to throw away my own reason and accept the Qur'an as truth. You may tell me any fault I find within it is actually a personal fault of my own. I say then that you are slaves and you are sheep. Any belief system which tells me not to think for myself is a self-propagating cult.

Very wise words @Faithful Jinn.

That is why in the Torah it is written that God doesn't want us to believe in Him, but to KNOW Him!
And more then 2000-3000 years, the discussions of the sages in Talmud, Mishna & Gemara, are the record of the wisest men on Earth searching for God's Truth, and rising up to that level.

But I say, you cannot always explain it, the only way is to taste It. Like the juicy apple..., who can describe the real taste? No-one... Same with the taste of Truth, when one finally finds it. One cannot describe it. Only know it himself... The rest is just shallow human stipulation and bubbling...

Shirin

On the contrary my friend. One of Allah's names is Al-Haqq meaning the Truth.

The Truth is what I seek. The Truth is greater than the Bible, the Qur'an, Jesus, and Allah. The Truth is that which exists whether you believe in it or not.

There is nothing grater than Allah swt. As you said, one of His names is Al-Haqq, therefore He is the great truth you are talking about.

Faithful-Jinn

There is nothing grater than Allah swt. As you said, one of His names is Al-Haqq, therefore He is the great truth you are talking about.

Truth is greater than any God. Allah is just one god of many believed by many peoples throughout history.

The truth I'm looking for is not a deity but reality itself. The truth I'm looking for probably can't be found in a thousand year old book.

I have no reason to believe the Qur'an has any more truth than the New Testament.

Just because the Qur'an says something doesn't make it true.

By saying Truth is greater than God I mean I care more about what is actually the truth than what makes me feel good or what the Qur'an says. I'm willing to question the validity of my beliefs and distinguish what truth really is. When I say the Truth is greater than God I mean that the Truth is what is real. God could be a false belief but the Truth by very definition is real. The Truth isn't necessarily a deity or a god.

When you say that Allah is the greatest you've already closed your mind to truth. You think you have Truth in a 7th century book that has propagated itself into a world religion. Truth is immaterial to you because you already think you have attained it.

You're already satisfied with your understanding of the world and reality so why would you seek anything else and why would you question it? You're already right in your own mind.

This is the trap that religion sets. A Christian will almost NEVER accept Islam because they already have accepted Jesus and his resurrection as payment for their sins as truth. You cannot show a Christian the Qur'an and expect them to think about anything because in their own mind, they already know the truth and everything else is falsehood.

Much in the same way, you as a Muslim cannot accept any possibilities outside of your own beliefs as possibly containing truth.

johan