A forum section called "Consensus"?
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SA.
I'm relatively new to free-minds.
FM has alot of information and alot of differing opinions on many subjects regarding the Qu'ran.
I understand that this is the trademark of FM, which in itself is indeed a very good standpoint, since it removes the dogma of not questioning traditions and translations.However, FM contains so many differing opinions that it can seem an almost impossible task for newcomers to shift through all this information without it seeming to be an almost impossible task due to everyday life etc.
So i was thinking. How maybe, to all those clever minds in here. We could create a subsection in the forum called "Consensus".
In this part will be collected information on hot topics often discussed in regards to the Qu'ran.
Topics such as ramadhan, salaat, hijab etc.The topics would reflect the most acknowledged studies of these topics.
Most importantly is that these threads would be closed and not be debatable on the "Consensus" subforum.
But if a user would be interested in discussing something regarding this subject, they would be more than welcome to in the appropriate forums.This way we would avoid clusters of threads which deal with the same discussions, and also newcommers would not have to read through 100+ pages of discussions in order to gather what the common opinion of what a certain topic is.
Some benefits
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Many newcommers would be able to join in on discussions from the getgo on many topics, and stay up to date on many new understandings of the Qu'ran.
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Members can always refer to a specific thread when people want to learn of something specific.
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The consensus threads will reflect more than one opinion based on studies and discussions.
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This one for me is the most important. Many in here go under the banner of "Qu'ran alone". And even though we are all joining the FM community, we are still split in essence. "Consensus" on major topics would help us unite even further.
I myself am very new to this, i became what some might call a Qu'ran aloner around the end of 2008.
But we are seeing more and more waking up from the shackles of traditions and hearsay, i think it'd be nice to help these people ease in to the idea of an islamic understanding without hadiths etc.This is just an idea, how much help i'd be in this project is very limited, since i myself am one of those many who do not understand arabic.
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Peace Hicham.
Thank you for your idea.
The problem I see with closing a thread is if there are mistakes in it. It will become misleading ie ( another Hadith).
The beauty of keeping the debate ongoing is someone may come up with a better argument/understanding/proof from their study/ guidance especially about the " ambiguous" topics.
There is always room for more knowledge.
Peace.
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Salaam Hicham,
I understand what you're saying, thanks for bringing it up. One way I can think of implementing this is a 'different views' thread stickied (and locked?) in each section where there are different understandings of common subjects. Each view would have it's own post perhaps with a blurb about it and a link to where the discussion thread is. Views can be asked to be added and/or we can add them ourselves? In my opinion it should be locked so that it's more ordered by adding to it according to a required/consistent format and also to avoid certain elements adding views with no evidence (e.g. quran endorses terrorism) or just random stuff. Then again, we can delete/edit later which may be offensive to some. In either case, if the pros outweigh the cons, then sure.
I also have no issue with certain views anywhere else, I just wouldn't want to waste my time reading such when in my opinion it should be quran from the quran etc. The con that I can see are selective views based on a particular methodology (e.g. quran by the quran). One could require no methodology whatsoever and just mention in the blurb what it's using so people can decide whether it's something they want to read? Could work. I still wouldn't want to see clearly unevidenced views on such a thread however. If we can come to an agreement regarding what type of views one would want to read or should be on a thread like this etc, we could do this...unless there is some valid argument against it. The biggest pro to this would be helping newcomers and even oldies to have easy access to different understandings which otherwise are lost in the mix and require considerable effort even if we know what we're looking for.
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Peace Hicham.
Please let me clarify what I mean by " Ambiguous" topics.
GOD does not give a choice on " Submission to HIM" ( upholding HIS authority Alone) ,nor does HE give a choice on commandements.
However, on Serving HIM/ worship, the guidelines leave some choice for the individuals, GOD knows/recognises each individual and how much they can bear. ( like salat, zakat, sawm,...) I call these " Ambiguous topics.
Peace. -
SA.
@ Brother/Sister Savage_Carrot.
You are entirely right, i didn't not explain fully on my first post because i wanted to see the response from others before clarifying further.
(Please remember that this is just a seemingly draft of my idea, and in no way final)What i had personally in mind is that perhaps, the moderators of FM could point out a couple of members they know and trust, who are not biased towards one way of thinking even if they have their own opinions on certain topics.
These members would run this certain subsection of the forums, call it whatever.This subsection will hold threads of most topics, and within these threads, opionions can be added only by these appointed members.
A thread, say it was on the topic of Salaat
Would include, what i know from memory of what i have read here and there.- An understanding of what salaat is
- Arguemented discussions of it being twice a day, 3 times a day etc.
A link referring to each discussions or other articles relating to the discussions on salaat.
Thread closed!
Then, lets say someone posts an article on salaat which gives an entirely different point of view on this matter.
And it cannot be entirely argued against, members of the forum can then opt for this new view to be added to the closed thread on Salaat. The appointed members will then take it into consideration(or however we agree to make it work) to add to the closed consensus thread or not.In this way we keep discussions alive and easy to find, and we also help to create a database of important issues that capture the mental time of many.
@ Brother/sister Good Logic.
I understand what you mean, which is why i was thinking there should be certain criterias to adding to such a thread.
F. example that the Qu'ran is indeed the book of Allah and "GOD does not give a choice on " Submission to HIM" ( upholding HIS authority Alone) ,nor does HE give a choice on commandements." as you said.
Therefore, any discussions regarding doubting the Qu'ran in itself or anything else that questions belief would not make it to the consensus thread and will remain a discussion amongst members.
In this way, in my opinion, we uphold the general idea of free discussion without comprimizing the word of Allah.
Remember, that it is still an idea, and in no way perfected.
We could help each other to make it work.
I really think it would benefit many with such a place to learn more about the Qu'ran. -
w/salaam Hicham, all,
I think this is a good idea in principle. I tried something similar for the salat section, and even though it was rarely referred to, it does seem to have a lot of views, so I assume it is working somewhat.
I just called it Compilation of discussions on aspects of salat
Rather than a new section however, I think within each section, e.g. "hajj", a summary/compilation thread can be made sticky, similar to the above thread on salat.
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SA.
@ Brother/Sister Savage_Carrot.
You are entirely right, i didn't not explain fully on my first post because i wanted to see the response from others before clarifying further.
(Please remember that this is just a seemingly draft of my idea, and in no way final)What i had personally in mind is that perhaps, the moderators of FM could point out a couple of members they know and trust, who are not biased towards one way of thinking even if they have their own opinions on certain topics.
These members would run this certain subsection of the forums, call it whatever.This subsection will hold threads of most topics, and within these threads, opionions can be added only by these appointed members.
A thread, say it was on the topic of Salaat
Would include, what i know from memory of what i have read here and there.- An understanding of what salaat is
- Arguemented discussions of it being twice a day, 3 times a day etc.
A link referring to each discussions or other articles relating to the discussions on salaat.
Thread closed!
Then, lets say someone posts an article on salaat which gives an entirely different point of view on this matter.
And it cannot be entirely argued against, members of the forum can then opt for this new view to be added to the closed thread on Salaat. The appointed members will then take it into consideration(or however we agree to make it work) to add to the closed consensus thread or not.In this way we keep discussions alive and easy to find, and we also help to create a database of important issues that capture the mental time of many.
I suggested a stickied and/or locked thread because it would serve a similar purpose as having a separate category and additionally, would not limit us to only certain members doing it. The admin could give any view added or that they add themselves a once over seeing if it is meeting a basic criteria of being understood from the quran etc even if it's something they may not agree with.
Something like this
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0
One could have a consistent format for the way it's added with a blurb and then the link to the discussion. Many members have their own threads about their understandings in the first post and then go on to discuss them etc. I think that's more dynamic and up to date rather than adding a static understanding and then having it disproved, changing their minds, asking for edits and deletions etc. They can do that all on their discussion thread and we'd have to read those threads obviously even if they are a 100 pages. If you're asking for a more article based format, then we have those as well but along with it are things like understanding a verse differently but not a whole article on the ramifications etc so on. So are we asking for article based/complete understandings? Or more like different views even if it's just a verse? Or both?
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w/salaam Hicham, all,
I think this is a good idea in principle. I tried something similar for the salat section, and even though it was rarely referred to, it does seem to have a lot of views, so I assume it is working somewhat.
I just called it Compilation of discussions on aspects of salat
Rather than a new section however, I think within each section, e.g. "hajj", a summary/compilation thread can be made sticky, similar to the above thread on salat.
Exactly so.
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SA!
The post as made by Wakas was very much what i had in mind.
Maybe with an added summary of sorts to the topic at hand + a short summary of different opinions(very short ones).As for its placement. I merely suggested a gathering of all posts such as that one under one subsection so as to create a database of sorts.
However, if it is easier and more convienient to do each topic under their respective forums, then that is how it should be.EDIT Naturally the biggest criteria would be to keep the post updated to reflect current discussions if there ever was any.
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Sounds good. If you have a compilation for different categories let us know. We can all work on it. I'd very much, like you, want it to have a consistent format with a short summary/blurb rather than just links too.
peace
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Greetings and Peace, all group
I'm not sure if "Consensus" is possible...maybe a section dedicated to subjects that is further divided into support for and against each individual subject. Double points for links to supporting threads!
An example follows
Big topic is Fasting.
Suptopic is Fasting is for ten days.
The subtopic could be partitioned into Yes, No, Yes (however...), and No (however...).
It is more honest to look at both sides of an argument, but those prone to actually argue have an area to voice their views without impeding the flow of information. If one supported the topic, they would post in "Yes" or "Yes, however..." and not post in "No." Anyone not supporting the topic would post in "No" or "No, however..." and not in "Yes." There are plenty of forums for anyone intending to "mix it up."
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Just an opinion.
ALLAH knows best!
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
I'm not sure if "Consensus" is possible...maybe a section dedicated to subjects that is further divided into support for and against each individual subject. Double points for links to supporting threads! )
An example follows
Big topic is Fasting.
Suptopic is Fasting is for ten days.
The subtopic could be partitioned into Yes, No, Yes (however...), and No (however...).
It is more honest to look at both sides of an argument, but those prone to actually argue have an area to voice their views without impeding the flow of information. If one supported the topic, they would post in "Yes" or "Yes, however..." and not post in "No." Anyone not supporting the topic would post in "No" or "No, however..." and not in "Yes." There are plenty of forums for anyone intending to "mix it up."
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Just an opinion.
ALLAH knows best!
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
SA.
I am unsure of exactly what you mean Brother Abdul-Hadi.
You would create 3 different threads for the same topic? a "Yes", "Maybe" and "No"?
Could you clarify, as it seems rather tedious.
@Savage_Carrot
At the moment, i do not have a compilation of different topics at all.
But a thread could be created in which we gather links for all sorts of hot topics and start working on creating the threads that are to be stickied, in the same manner as the one made by Brother Wakas. -
Peace,
Abdul-Hadi, not sure if I understand the concept correctly? At the moment what we want to do is a stickied thread in different categories with compilations of links to different discussions about common topics e.g. salat, hajj, dress issues etc
Hicham, I'll create a sticky thread in this section and we can start adding links under different headers and we can work out the format along with it if wanted. Once we have a decent amount, I'll create the stickies under the different categories and paste.
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604158.0
The temp thread for now.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
SA.
I am unsure of exactly what you mean Brother Abdul-Hadi.
You would create 3 different threads for the same topic? a "Yes", "Maybe" and "No"?
Could you clarify, as it seems rather tedious.
@Savage_Carrot
At the moment, i do not have a compilation of different topics at all.
But a thread could be created in which we gather links for all sorts of hot topics and start working on creating the threads that are to be stickied, in the same manner as the one made by Brother Wakas.-[ Technically the suggestion was for four forks at the termination point of each subtopic (yes/yes;however/no/no;however). One would follow a topic to subtopic to the point of interest. Supporting and opposing viewpoints are offered, BUT in separate areas for clarity. It would be possible to go with just yes (support)/no (don't support)--however valuable input may be lost/obfuscated thereby.
I was suggesting starting a pyramid-style form of organization rather than stickies because understandings are so diverse that sometimes things get bogged down. (How many threads are there that go on for dozens or even hundreds of pages?) hmm
If the organization is put into place, the members of FM will populate the "sticks" of each branch with leaves; each according to their understanding, while at the same time not disturbing the efforts of others. This also helps make sure that no single understanding dominates. Mods and Admins can do what they do best, without getting tied up or becoming insta-scholars. )
There might be better plans; the post was an attempt to contribute.
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
