The Challenge Yet To Be Met
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Peace,
Life is like a card game. God is the dealer, he deals everyone a hand, how you play is up to you.
You cannot ask this dealer what he is doing or why or how he is dealing
Have they found gods on earth who can create?
If there were in them (the heavens and the earth) other gods beside GOD, there would have been chaos. Glory be to GOD; the Lord with absolute authority. He is high above their claims.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questionedPeace O0
The key to monotheism can be found in the garden of eden
I just had to write that I appreciate very much your post and the quotation from the Qur'an!
It is amazing how many times we can read the Qur'an and it is always fresh and new, and we always find something to awake our attention previously somehow duly unnoticed.
As someone once said, the Qur'an is always updated, it is we who need constant updatingAnd, you know @hawkninetynine, I like your signature phrase very much!
Best regards.
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Assalamu Alaykum, everyone.
I am not a hater, I am not trying to attack your religion. Only trying to truly understand. One thing has kept me from believing in god all these years. And I bring it to you as a challenge, not to end your faith, but to renew my own. Please help me in this.
According to the Quran. God knows all. The past, present, and future, everything. It is clear. There is no getting out of it.
What does this mean you ask? It means everything is automatically pre-determined, no matter what. We have no real choice.
God made Satan, knowing before he made him, all that he would do, meaning God pre-determined Satan, because God did not have to make him that way, knowing how he would end up.
God made a world of suffering, knowing all that would happen, before Creation, making everything pre-determined. God did not have to make a world full of suffering, he made the choice to. Did he have to? No.
Creation is pointless, when you are an all knowing God, because you know all, no matter what.
To elaborate, take a piece of paper, and put it on your desk. Now you are about to scratch a line onto the paper with a pencil. Wherever you scratch, that is the Creation. Each possible line you could make is a different Creation. You know what each Creation would be, everything that happens in it. God just happened to make a scratch, say, on the rim of the upper right corner, making the Universe as we know it today, everything that happened in the past, that is happening now, and that will happen, God knows of.
That means God made a world full of suffering. God made Hell, knowing beforehand, that if he made that certain scratch, those people that deserve it, were already going to get it. That means before God made Lucifer, he knew that he would rebel, and tempt us. That means Creation is a movie directed by God, a movie that is the same as he knew it would be, full of suffering, and an eternity of Hell for those who would deserve it, but they only deserve it, because God determined it so by making the world as it is. If he had scratched just a little different on that piece of paper, that person instead of choosing to be a believer and a good person, would have been an unbeliever and a bad person, thereby making their destiny Hell, a place where you are burned forever, and your drink is boiling water.
To create evil, knowing what would happen beforehand, makes you evil. Do we not condemn those on Earth to prison for evil deeds, for making the choice of creating those evil situations? Why is not God condemned then, for making Evil?
Can anyone meet this challenge and give me peace of mind, so that I may return to being a Muslim?Peace,
Your challenge is easily met.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questioned.
God does what he wants to do, you don't have to understand, or like or condon what he does
or has done or will do. You can wring you hands, cry foul, get upset, pout, sulk, what we do, think
cannot change what God has decreed, get used to it. Many people question God but are afraid to question
certain humans! This is not your creation! You may not like the rules but so what. Two things we can do is ask God for mercy and guidance.He is the One GOD; there is no other god besides Him. Knower of all secrets and declarations. He is the Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
He is the One GOD; there is no other god besides Him. The King, the Most Sacred, the Peace, the Most Faithful, the Supreme, the Almighty, the Most Powerful, the Most Dignified. GOD be glorified; far above having partners.
He is the One GOD; the Creator, the Initiator, the Designer. To Him belong the most beautiful names. Glorifying Him is everything in the heavens and the earth. He is the Almighty, Most Wise.Peace O0
The secret to monotheism is in the garden of eden
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Peace,
Life is like a card game. God is the dealer, he deals everyone a hand, how you play is up to you.
You cannot ask this dealer what he is doing or why or how he is dealing
Have they found gods on earth who can create?
If there were in them (the heavens and the earth) other gods beside GOD, there would have been chaos. Glory be to GOD; the Lord with absolute authority. He is high above their claims.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questionedPeace O0
The key to monotheism can be found in the garden of eden
This has very little to do with what we are talking about. Or at least, doesn't answer a thing. Why is God not asked anything but others can be? He is just as visible as the rest.
And right, so we're dealt out a hand, and it's up to us to choose how we play it. Well, God still knows beforehand, before dealing out that hand, exactly how we will play it out anyways. So what's the point, to Him? By the way, dealers who fix games often have their hands broken.
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Peace,
Your challenge is easily met.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questioned.
God does what he wants to do, you don't have to understand, or like or condon what he does
or has done or will do. You can wring you hands, cry foul, get upset, pout, sulk, what we do, think
cannot change what God has decreed, get used to it. Many people question God but are afraid to question
certain humans! This is not your creation! You may not like the rules but so what. Two things we can do is ask God for mercy and guidance.He is the One GOD; there is no other god besides Him. Knower of all secrets and declarations. He is the Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
He is the One GOD; there is no other god besides Him. The King, the Most Sacred, the Peace, the Most Faithful, the Supreme, the Almighty, the Most Powerful, the Most Dignified. GOD be glorified; far above having partners.
He is the One GOD; the Creator, the Initiator, the Designer. To Him belong the most beautiful names. Glorifying Him is everything in the heavens and the earth. He is the Almighty, Most Wise.Peace O0
The secret to monotheism is in the garden of eden
The mercy and guidance that God already knew who, when, and where He would give it, before the moment of creation even began? Even your post just then, was already known to God, before the universe began.
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This has very little to do with what we are talking about. Or at least, doesn't answer a thing. Why is God not asked anything but others can be? He is just as visible as the rest.
And right, so we're dealt out a hand, and it's up to us to choose how we play it. Well, God still knows beforehand, before dealing out that hand, exactly how we will play it out anyways. So what's the point, to Him? By the way, dealers who fix games often have their hands broken.
It's a good question you raise.
The nuance is that when God says 'he shall not be questioned', you can take it in two ways. One way you'd think "This is MY will and you better be quiet about it". But this is erroneous and not at all what is being said in that verse.
Rather, God is simply something that there is no way to question just as water can't be anything other than wet. You can question 1+1 = 2 all you like but it's very nature cannot be changed. So you have to yield to the fact that 1 + 1 = 2. One of God's names is Al-Haqq i.e. the absolute clear truth. God is the irresistible, that is to say that nothing at all can override it or even try to.
Likewise, do you ask why a square is a square and try to change it into a 3 sided square? Rather you accept inherently that squareness entails four corners and you live your life in submission to this truth. The truth has no reason to not be submitted to because it inherently is the only way that reality could ever be.
As for the first interpretation of 'questioning', God states that on judgement day we will be told all the answers in detail (5105). The point is that each and every single one of our questions will have an answer, no matter how in-depth and complex and intricate they are. The human imagination is always encompassed by the knowledge of God. Human knowledge is a subset of God's knowledge always. And also that these answers will be irresistibly true just as '2' is the irresistible answer to '1+1 = ?".
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It's a good question you raise.
The nuance is that when God says 'he shall not be questioned', you can take it in two ways. One way you'd think "This is MY will and you better be quiet about it". But this is erroneous and not at all what is being said in that verse.
Rather, God is simply something that there is no way to question just as water can't be anything other than wet. You can question 1+1 = 2 all you like but it's very nature cannot be changed. So you have to yield to the fact that 1 + 1 = 2. One of God's names is Al-Haqq i.e. the absolute clear truth. God is the irresistible, that is to say that nothing at all can override it or even try to.
Likewise, do you ask why a square is a square and try to change it into a 3 sided square? Rather you accept inherently that squareness entails four corners and you live your life in submission to this truth. The truth has no reason to not be submitted to because it inherently is the only way that reality could ever be.
As for the first interpretation of 'questioning', God states that on judgement day we will be told all the answers in detail (5105). The point is that each and every single one of our questions will have an answer, no matter how in-depth and complex and intricate they are. The human imagination is always encompassed by the knowledge of God. Human knowledge is a subset of God's knowledge always. And also that these answers will be irresistibly true just as '2' is the irresistible answer to '1+1 = ?".
The entire point of this whole thread is to discover the truth. To rationally conclude a reason behind Gods omniscience. And you are wrong, the Quranic ideal of God is not the only way it could ever be, inherently. Have you researched the many other ideas of other Gods? For example, Brahman in Hinduism makes much more sense then the God of the Quran. Brahman is simply the source of everything, reality itself, and we are all a piece of that source, we are God. So it is not inherently the truth, it is simply your perception of the truth, a perception that is not meeting rationality.
Can you answer what the point of creation is to the Quranic God? He knew before creation, all that would take place, who would and would not be worthy of hell. What is the point to God, not to us, to God, for creating what could be, to Him, equated to a movie he has already watched a thousand times, this is just play number one thousand and one.
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There is no difference between 'Brahman' and 'God'. I have been practicing zen for a few years and it is absolutely 100% equivalent to islam at its heart because the path of light is a single path. Keep in mind you are perhaps coming from the perspective of someone who hasn't studied and applied in depth the quran over several years.
Thus you cannot say this "the Quranic ideal of God is not the only way it could ever be, inherently" as you are simply just not informed as to what the quran genuinely says. Your perception at the moment is still too naive of the sheer depth of the book, and don't think I am talking down to you whatsoever either. We all began from this state.
Forget this or that ideal about God and focus. The reality in front of you, is it going to go away? The air in front of you, the floor underneath you, the bricks at your sides. Will shouting, screaming and debating make them go away and dissipate you back into the void from whence you came? It certainly won't. Reality is irresistible. To offer resistance to it is futile, a waste of energy altogether. Accepting that it is this way alone and none else, then look within yourself, meditate, and see what way it actually is.
You might like this link, it is a very good and quick read and it has nothing to do with the quran itisnotreal.com/awareness-of-the-void.html
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Why are you posting in a thread made to discuss the idea of God presented in the Quran if you are not going to discuss it. I know completely what you are saying, but this thread was made with the intention to discuss the rationality behind the Quranic God knowing all, past, present, and future, and what it could mean. You are not putting in anything as far as the idea being discussed.
And zen is not one hundred percent equal to Islam, because there is no self, no actual soul, in Zen, in Buddhism period. It is a stream of conciousness that continues in Buddhism, and the goal is to reach Nirvana, break free from Rebirth, and no longer be reborn. There is no god in Buddhism that is all knowing, that created the universe, knowing all that would happen therein before the actual creation, and then condemning those folks who were created to be such, to eternity in fire.
If you are not going to discuss the issue at hand, then please don't try to change the discussion.
I am in no way resisting reality, it's anyone who refuses to discuss what they believe, to argue for what they believe, that resists reality. This post took me maybe four minutest to finish, and i'm enjoying a TV show, life in general, all the while discussing this. So what reality am I resisting?
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Actually zen is a mindset. Do not confuse the religion around zen with zen itself. Zen is simply just sitting, that's all. No need to read deep storylines into it though they of course will come with the practice.
Likewise the methodology of buddhism is not the same thing as the religion of buddhism. Buddha's teachings did not ask people to construct gold statues of him and bow to it. All of these things such as "no self", "no actual soul", "stream of consciousness", "Nirvana", "rebirth", etc are NOT zen and they will never be. Zen is free of all concepts altogether. A teacher might say to one student, "there is no self" then turn around and say to his next student "there is a self", based on how he feels the student is most likely to reach realisation. These koans are only there to break the mind, to break the questioner so as to see the Clear Light of the void. Once you know the clear light, all other truths are reflected from within yourself.
Regardless, the idea that God knows everything before it happens is false, refer to this verse
And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them for sport.
Had We wished to make a diversion, We would have made it from before Ourselves by no means would We do (it).
Nay! We cast the truth against the falsehood, so that it breaks its head, and lo! it vanishes; and woe to you for what you describe;This process of falsehood vanishing and truth becoming reified is the reason for the universe. As it evolves and increases in entropy, the number of possible configurations of matter naturally increases. All of the things you see in front of you now could not even have possibly existed closer to the Big Bang.
So we can see that over time, new and more complex things arise out of simpler ones infinitely dense energy becomes photons and hydrogen, then hydrogen fuses into complex elements, etc. The point is that creation happens in real time. It's as if God is using a brute force algorithm to answer the question posed in 2118. If God had the knowledge of the entire universe from beginning to end after it had happened; but before it even created the universe, then the creation would be pointless, a distraction or a play. And this is precisely what these verses reject.
It is incorrect to say God is not omniscient but it is not correct whatsoever to say things are predestined either, and as you say, this would totally void the purpose of a trial.
Peace
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God is doing everything!
We have cited in this Quran every kind of example, but the human being is the most argumentative creature.
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Actually zen is a mindset. Do not confuse the religion around zen with zen itself. Zen is simply just sitting, that's all. No need to read deep storylines into it though they of course will come with the practice.
Likewise the methodology of buddhism is not the same thing as the religion of buddhism. Buddha's teachings did not ask people to construct gold statues of him and bow to it. All of these things such as "no self", "no actual soul", "stream of consciousness", "Nirvana", "rebirth", etc are NOT zen and they will never be. Zen is free of all concepts altogether. A teacher might say to one student, "there is no self" then turn around and say to his next student "there is a self", based on how he feels the student is most likely to reach realisation. These koans are only there to break the mind, to break the questioner so as to see the Clear Light of the void. Once you know the clear light, all other truths are reflected from within yourself.
Regardless, the idea that God knows everything before it happens is false, refer to this verse
And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them for sport.
Had We wished to make a diversion, We would have made it from before Ourselves by no means would We do (it).
Nay! We cast the truth against the falsehood, so that it breaks its head, and lo! it vanishes; and woe to you for what you describe;This process of falsehood vanishing and truth becoming reified is the reason for the universe. As it evolves and increases in entropy, the number of possible configurations of matter naturally increases. All of the things you see in front of you now could not even have possibly existed closer to the Big Bang.
So we can see that over time, new and more complex things arise out of simpler ones infinitely dense energy becomes photons and hydrogen, then hydrogen fuses into complex elements, etc. The point is that creation happens in real time. It's as if God is using a brute force algorithm to answer the question posed in 2118. If God had the knowledge of the entire universe from beginning to end after it had happened; but before it even created the universe, then the creation would be pointless, a distraction or a play. And this is precisely what these verses reject.
It is incorrect to say God is not omniscient but it is not correct whatsoever to say things are predestined either, and as you say, this would totally void the purpose of a trial.
Peace
The context in which you used "Zen" implied the religion, that you have practiced the religion for a few years. Zazen is just sitting, sitting meditation.
And thank you for those verses, they give me even more respect for the Quran. But it still doesn't explain God knowing all, including the future, and everything therein. The only way this would make sense, is if God did not know the future, and everything therein. Because if He did, then yes, it would "void the purpose of a trial".
Could it be that the Quran never truly says that God knows everything that will come to pass? Because if it doesn't, then the Quran would make much more sense, not that it didn't. It's the knowing all of the future bit that destroys itself.
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Peace Bodhisvasti,
Can you answer what the point of creation is to the Quranic God? He knew before creation, all that would take place, who would and would not be worthy of hell. What is the point to God, not to us, to God, for creating what could be, to Him, equated to a movie he has already watched a thousand times, this is just play number one thousand and one. unquote
You want God to answer you, explain himself to you, and if he doesn't?
Maybe your real problem is that you are arrogant, lack humility.
Maybe that is the challenge yet to be met.
May your journey be a fruitful oneHe is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questioned.
GOD there is no other god besides Him, the Living, the Eternal. Never a moment of unawareness or slumber overtakes Him. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. Who could intercede with Him, except in accordance with His will? He knows their past, and their future. No one attains any knowledge, except as He wills. His dominion encompasses the heavens and the earth, and ruling them never burdens Him. He is the Most High, the Great.
He knows their past and their future, while none encompasses His knowledge.
He knows their past and their future. To GOD belongs the ultimate control of all matters.
Say, "No one in the heavens and the earth knows the unseen except GOD. They do not even perceive how or when they will be resurrected."
Peace O0
The secret of monotheism can be found in the garden of eden
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Peace Bodhisvasti,
Can you answer what the point of creation is to the Quranic God? He knew before creation, all that would take place, who would and would not be worthy of hell. What is the point to God, not to us, to God, for creating what could be, to Him, equated to a movie he has already watched a thousand times, this is just play number one thousand and one. unquote
You want God to answer you, explain himself to you, and if he doesn't?
Maybe your real problem is that you are arrogant, lack humility.
Maybe that is the challenge yet to be met.
May your journey be a fruitful oneHe is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questioned.
GOD there is no other god besides Him, the Living, the Eternal. Never a moment of unawareness or slumber overtakes Him. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. Who could intercede with Him, except in accordance with His will? He knows their past, and their future. No one attains any knowledge, except as He wills. His dominion encompasses the heavens and the earth, and ruling them never burdens Him. He is the Most High, the Great.
He knows their past and their future, while none encompasses His knowledge.
He knows their past and their future. To GOD belongs the ultimate control of all matters.
Say, "No one in the heavens and the earth knows the unseen except GOD. They do not even perceive how or when they will be resurrected."
Peace O0
The secret of monotheism can be found in the garden of eden
Maybe. Could very well be so. And those verses are rather disappointing. It destroys the idea of the Quranic God, or at the least, makes it evil.
What kind of God creates people to be wood to burn for fire?
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Maybe. Could very well be so. And those verses are rather disappointing. It destroys the idea of the Quranic God, or at the least, makes it evil.
What kind of God creates people to be wood to burn for fire?Peace Bodhisvasti,
According to Quran we will all find out on judgement day.
Have questions ready.
Peace O0
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden of eden
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salam,
But it still doesn't explain God knowing all, including the future
....Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.
He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth in the end will (all affairs) go up to
Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.The above two verses clearly shows that there are 2 dimensions.
One is God's dimension and the other is humans'.A day in God's dimension is equivalent to A thousand years in our dimension.
That mean to say if our mortality rate is about 70 years, we only take up a fraction of God's time.
In God's dimension He sees us born, grew up and died.
While in our dimension we are still in the maternity ward and the nurse is about to feed us our first bottled milk.And if we were to study the Quran with care we will find a number of verses which speak about the Day of Judgement (a future event for us), in the past tense, the following are examples
The heaven was opened (futihat) like gates. The mountains were removed (suyyirat), as if they were a mirage.
And the Book (of Deeds) will be placed (before you); and thou wilt see the sinful in great terror because of what is (recorded) therein; they will say, "Ah! woe to us! what a Book is this! It leaves out nothing small or great, but takes account thereof!" They will find all that they did, placed before them And not one will thy Lord treat with injustice.
These two verses speak about events which will take place at the end of the world, yet they are written in the past tense, as if they already happened.
Therefore, when the Qur'an says (And the book was placed), it means that this has occurred but we did not live these moments yet, and when the Qur'an says (And they found all that they did, present in front of them), it means that the we will live these moments.
Time, for us humans, is divided into past, present and future, but for God Almighty, the Creator of time, there is no past, present or future. Cause He sees the past, present and future.
God sees these three times at the same moment, we, humans, wait until these things occur.It is useful to remember that future events have already been witnessed by God as He is not subject to time and space that He Himself has created. The linear concept of time and space only applies to His creation and not to Him as He exists outside and separate from His Creation.
God knows all, not because He has "Foreknowledge" or it is "Predetermined" but God knows because He sees it all.
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You're not addressing the issue. You're only making it worse.
Great. So God is outside our dimension, and sees all, everything has already happened.
Why make Iblis knowing he would cause chaos?
What is the point to God when he already sees every outcome, who passes the test and doesn't, before we even exist?
That means predestination. Because this is the universe He created, knowing all that would take place, if He created 'this' universe.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
QuoteWhat is the point to God when he already sees every outcome, who passes the test and doesn't, before we even exist?
May be also , there is no other way of " creating" anything?
Imagine a creator allowing " total free will" with no predestination. You can then choose when you are born/created, where you are born /created. You can also choose whether you die or not die. Billions of created beings need to be perfect to be able to avoid chaos or all doing the same thing/being at the same time... That will make each one " god" . Would they be challenging each other, and of course challenging the original creator? Would they all live together in harmony?Would they themselves use " predestination" ? Will they be demanding all the attributes " God has" ? ... etc...
Otherwise we will always be claiming unfairness?
Do we know what " real free will" is? Is it possible?
Peace.
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Is there any other way of creating anything? Under the assumption that God knows everything that will take place, before creating such a thing, automatically means that our lives were predetermined.
You choose when you are born, where you are born? When you die? What? No. You are born due to evolution and biology. Everything that makes you, you, is determined by your past and present biology and genetics, environment and society, thoughts, speech, and actions. This argument that we would be Gods, or that we need to be perfect, is still at Gods feet. It is how He created us, is it not? Did he have to? No. Why are we all of a sudden getting all of these powers when you think about God not knowing everything, the future? That doesn't make sense.
Free will is possible. When God does not know exactly how His creation will play out, before he has even done any creating. Because this means that God did not deem it so.
When God knows that before creating Iblis, he will not obey Him, and cause mass chaos, cause the fall of man from paradise, is that not predestination when He decides to create him anyways? Is He not forcing us to fall from paradise?
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Peace Bodhisvasti
QuoteFree will is possible.
For example
How is it possible to ask " any creation" if they want to be created?
If something does not exist , it cannot have free will?
Once it is created, then they have free will. They can then decide if they want to still exist...do what they want...?
Their creator is still leaving them the choice they are going to make. Knowing what they will do is part of the package that qualifies Him to be the creator. The created is independent and chooses without bias from the creator!.
The other alternative is not to create at all? What do we know about that?
Peace. -
The context in which you used "Zen" implied the religion, that you have practiced the religion for a few years. Zazen is just sitting, sitting meditation.
And thank you for those verses, they give me even more respect for the Quran. But it still doesn't explain God knowing all, including the future, and everything therein. The only way this would make sense, is if God did not know the future, and everything therein. Because if He did, then yes, it would "void the purpose of a trial".
Could it be that the Quran never truly says that God knows everything that will come to pass? Because if it doesn't, then the Quran would make much more sense, not that it didn't. It's the knowing all of the future bit that destroys itself.
Presently I understand it this way God knows each and every possibility that can unfold. So God is omniscient. However the possibility which itself is made real happens in real time. That is to say, God knows everything that comes to pass in real time exactly as it happens. So by analogy, God knows every possible move on the chessboard but he lets us actually choose the moves we make.
The future does not operate on a linear timeline as we would like to think. Rather, the 'future' is the consequence of an expanding universe with continually increasing entropy. It's not that the universe is travelling through "time" as a ship sails through the seas. Rather, the very shape of the universe is what we call "time". And God knows how he would shape this universe as he pleases.
However certain facts about the future are readily apparent from the past. And people perhaps confuse this for 'predestination'. For example
2530 - Then the Messenger will say "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."
Let's say someone jumps off a tall cliff or is shot out of a cannon at a brick wall far away. You can make the statement "he's going to die" with certitude long before he hits the ground. As for when you state 'God creates people for fire'; that is not so. The word for create is 'khalaq' generally and this means directly creating with this or that shape for such and such a purpose.
Conversely the verse you are talking about is 7179 which uses a different word 'dharana'; I understand that this word means something like multiply. God does NOT create people to go straight to hell. Rather it is a statement that God has created many humans who themselves have assigned their souls to hell by not heeding the word when it came to them and clinging to evil.
Peace