The Challenge Yet To Be Met
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salam,
But it still doesn't explain God knowing all, including the future
....Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.
He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth in the end will (all affairs) go up to
Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.The above two verses clearly shows that there are 2 dimensions.
One is God's dimension and the other is humans'.A day in God's dimension is equivalent to A thousand years in our dimension.
That mean to say if our mortality rate is about 70 years, we only take up a fraction of God's time.
In God's dimension He sees us born, grew up and died.
While in our dimension we are still in the maternity ward and the nurse is about to feed us our first bottled milk.And if we were to study the Quran with care we will find a number of verses which speak about the Day of Judgement (a future event for us), in the past tense, the following are examples
The heaven was opened (futihat) like gates. The mountains were removed (suyyirat), as if they were a mirage.
And the Book (of Deeds) will be placed (before you); and thou wilt see the sinful in great terror because of what is (recorded) therein; they will say, "Ah! woe to us! what a Book is this! It leaves out nothing small or great, but takes account thereof!" They will find all that they did, placed before them And not one will thy Lord treat with injustice.
These two verses speak about events which will take place at the end of the world, yet they are written in the past tense, as if they already happened.
Therefore, when the Qur'an says (And the book was placed), it means that this has occurred but we did not live these moments yet, and when the Qur'an says (And they found all that they did, present in front of them), it means that the we will live these moments.
Time, for us humans, is divided into past, present and future, but for God Almighty, the Creator of time, there is no past, present or future. Cause He sees the past, present and future.
God sees these three times at the same moment, we, humans, wait until these things occur.It is useful to remember that future events have already been witnessed by God as He is not subject to time and space that He Himself has created. The linear concept of time and space only applies to His creation and not to Him as He exists outside and separate from His Creation.
God knows all, not because He has "Foreknowledge" or it is "Predetermined" but God knows because He sees it all.
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You're not addressing the issue. You're only making it worse.
Great. So God is outside our dimension, and sees all, everything has already happened.
Why make Iblis knowing he would cause chaos?
What is the point to God when he already sees every outcome, who passes the test and doesn't, before we even exist?
That means predestination. Because this is the universe He created, knowing all that would take place, if He created 'this' universe.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
QuoteWhat is the point to God when he already sees every outcome, who passes the test and doesn't, before we even exist?
May be also , there is no other way of " creating" anything?
Imagine a creator allowing " total free will" with no predestination. You can then choose when you are born/created, where you are born /created. You can also choose whether you die or not die. Billions of created beings need to be perfect to be able to avoid chaos or all doing the same thing/being at the same time... That will make each one " god" . Would they be challenging each other, and of course challenging the original creator? Would they all live together in harmony?Would they themselves use " predestination" ? Will they be demanding all the attributes " God has" ? ... etc...
Otherwise we will always be claiming unfairness?
Do we know what " real free will" is? Is it possible?
Peace.
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Is there any other way of creating anything? Under the assumption that God knows everything that will take place, before creating such a thing, automatically means that our lives were predetermined.
You choose when you are born, where you are born? When you die? What? No. You are born due to evolution and biology. Everything that makes you, you, is determined by your past and present biology and genetics, environment and society, thoughts, speech, and actions. This argument that we would be Gods, or that we need to be perfect, is still at Gods feet. It is how He created us, is it not? Did he have to? No. Why are we all of a sudden getting all of these powers when you think about God not knowing everything, the future? That doesn't make sense.
Free will is possible. When God does not know exactly how His creation will play out, before he has even done any creating. Because this means that God did not deem it so.
When God knows that before creating Iblis, he will not obey Him, and cause mass chaos, cause the fall of man from paradise, is that not predestination when He decides to create him anyways? Is He not forcing us to fall from paradise?
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Peace Bodhisvasti
QuoteFree will is possible.
For example
How is it possible to ask " any creation" if they want to be created?
If something does not exist , it cannot have free will?
Once it is created, then they have free will. They can then decide if they want to still exist...do what they want...?
Their creator is still leaving them the choice they are going to make. Knowing what they will do is part of the package that qualifies Him to be the creator. The created is independent and chooses without bias from the creator!.
The other alternative is not to create at all? What do we know about that?
Peace. -
The context in which you used "Zen" implied the religion, that you have practiced the religion for a few years. Zazen is just sitting, sitting meditation.
And thank you for those verses, they give me even more respect for the Quran. But it still doesn't explain God knowing all, including the future, and everything therein. The only way this would make sense, is if God did not know the future, and everything therein. Because if He did, then yes, it would "void the purpose of a trial".
Could it be that the Quran never truly says that God knows everything that will come to pass? Because if it doesn't, then the Quran would make much more sense, not that it didn't. It's the knowing all of the future bit that destroys itself.
Presently I understand it this way God knows each and every possibility that can unfold. So God is omniscient. However the possibility which itself is made real happens in real time. That is to say, God knows everything that comes to pass in real time exactly as it happens. So by analogy, God knows every possible move on the chessboard but he lets us actually choose the moves we make.
The future does not operate on a linear timeline as we would like to think. Rather, the 'future' is the consequence of an expanding universe with continually increasing entropy. It's not that the universe is travelling through "time" as a ship sails through the seas. Rather, the very shape of the universe is what we call "time". And God knows how he would shape this universe as he pleases.
However certain facts about the future are readily apparent from the past. And people perhaps confuse this for 'predestination'. For example
2530 - Then the Messenger will say "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."
Let's say someone jumps off a tall cliff or is shot out of a cannon at a brick wall far away. You can make the statement "he's going to die" with certitude long before he hits the ground. As for when you state 'God creates people for fire'; that is not so. The word for create is 'khalaq' generally and this means directly creating with this or that shape for such and such a purpose.
Conversely the verse you are talking about is 7179 which uses a different word 'dharana'; I understand that this word means something like multiply. God does NOT create people to go straight to hell. Rather it is a statement that God has created many humans who themselves have assigned their souls to hell by not heeding the word when it came to them and clinging to evil.
Peace
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Life is like a card game. God is the dealer, he deals everyone a hand, how you play is up to you.
You cannot ask this dealer what he is doing or why or how he is dealing
Have they found gods on earth who can create?
If there were in them (the heavens and the earth) other gods beside GOD, there would have been chaos. Glory be to GOD; the Lord with absolute authority. He is high above their claims.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questionedIndeed, faith is the only possible answer and explanation.
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Peace Stop S,
God is the cosmic card dealer, he is the house, he makes the rules, on can pout, cry foul, hate it,
fall on the floor kicking and screaming like a three year old, ask why, philosophize, but the point
of religion/path/way/deen is that God is All-Powerful and answers to no one.Peace O0
The secret to monotheism rests in the garden
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God is the cosmic card dealer, he is the house, he makes the rules, on can pout, cry foul, hate it,
fall on the floor kicking and screaming like a three year old, ask why, philosophize, but the point
of religion/path/way/deen is that God is All-Powerful and answers to no one.Do you have knowledge that I do not have?
What is "All-Powerful"?
If god answers to "no one" it means that god is "one" of us and on an identical level. I am confused by your apparent contradiction here. Where is my error? -
Do you have knowledge that I do not have?
What is "All-Powerful"?
If god answers to "no one" it means that god is "one" of us and on an identical level. I am confused by your apparent contradiction here. Where is my error?Peace Stop S,
God is not one of us this is in unanimity with the Quran.
When Moses came at our appointed time, and his Lord spoke with him, he said, "My Lord, let me look and see You." He said, "You cannot see Me. Look at that mountain; if it stays in its place, then you can see Me." Then, his Lord manifested Himself to the mountain, and this caused it to crumble. Moses fell unconscious. When he came to, he said, "Be You glorified. I repent to You, and I am the most convinced believer."
The sheer magnitude of the observable universe excludes the possibilty of human participation.
God is all-powerful what I mean by that is he is in full control over his creation.
To GOD belongs everything in the heavens and the earth. GOD is in full control of all things.
Peace O0
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Peace,
I found this article interesting.
Future events mentioned in past tense in the Quran
Q Yesterday evening, while studying arabic, (Holy Quran 3651), I asked my teacher why is the 'The trumpet shall be sounded' mentioned in past tense and we read it as future tense?
A My teacher explained that it is a special style of speech in Arabic (known as 'balagat' that when there is no doubt about a future event's happening, to emphasise, the event is discussed as it has already happened.
My mind kept wandering to Harun Yahya's book 'Eternity has already begun' and the comparison of our life to that of a pre-recorded videotape where you know exactly what happens at which part of the tape.
At night, I casually flicked through 'Parallel Worlds' by Michio Kaku, and subhan'Allah, open before me was page 154, where Pierre Simon de Laplace's work is mentioned, and I quote "He wrote that if a being could know the position and velocity of all the particles in the universe, 'for such an intellect, nothing could be uncertain; and the future just like the past would be present before his eyes.' " And then, on Pg 155, I quote from Einstein's position ".... Everything is determined... by forces over which we have no control.... for the insect as well as the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious time, intoned in the distance by an invisible player."Posted by Samiya Illias
Peace O0
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God is the only thing that is. The rest is not. The rest is like a dream of the one that is. Everything else is because God dreams or imagines or makes it so that the ones in his dreams think they exist. Stops, is a dream where somebody dreams that he is clever and is going to catch somebody else with his cleverness...
I hope in this dream of God he can sell that cleverness and get something out of it. But ay be not in this forum, this forum is a dream where there re people that are not deterred nor put off by this kind of cleverness.
We may dream of particles, of predetermination, or determination, or freedim or free will... Only de Dreamer knows how or to what end those dreams are the way they are. But we should know that if we think we are predetermined we are dreaming within a dream, and if we have free determination, again we are also dreamers within a dream.
Only de Dreamer knows what He dreams and to what end.
Let us pray to the dreamer that the creatures in His dreams do not go through too much misery.
Salaam
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God is the only thing that is. The rest is not. The rest is like a dream of the one that is. Everything else is because God dreams or imagines or makes it so that the ones in his dreams think they exist. Stops, is a dream where somebody dreams that he is clever and is going to catch somebody else with his cleverness...
I hope in this dream of God he can sell that cleverness and get something out of it. But ay be not in this forum, this forum is a dream where there re people that are not deterred nor put off by this kind of cleverness.
We may dream of particles, of predetermination, or determination, or freedim or free will... Only de Dreamer knows how or to what end those dreams are the way they are. But we should know that if we think we are predetermined we are dreaming within a dream, and if we have free determination, again we are also dreamers within a dream.
Only de Dreamer knows what He dreams and to what end.
Let us pray to the dreamer that the creatures in His dreams do not go through too much misery.
SalaamVery good,
I thought about your analogy some time ago and concluded that the attribute of "sustainer"
is astonishing. The idea that everything is held together so perfectly, reminds me that God
is in full control all the timeWe have created the heavens and the earth, and everything between them in six days, and no fatigue touched us.
Peace O0
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Peace Stop S,
God is not one of us this is in unanimity with the Quran.
That is why I was surprised to hear that from you.
God is all-powerful what I mean by that is he is in full control over his creation.
Well yes, but all-powerful is a human concept. Can an all-powerful god create a god which is more powerful? No, of course not because it is illogical.
The same goes for the question whether a god can create something he can't destroy.
This shows that the concept of omnipotence or all-powerful and all the other omni-x are human inventions and not really possible.Also, if you think logically, humans are created because this creator/god felt like being worshipped. So logically, a creator creating humans who worship should be able to do so. But this is not true. Out of 5 humans which are created, only 1 worships the creator. So the success ratio is only 15. Is that what you would call "full control" over one's own creation?
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Peace,
I found this article interesting.
Future events mentioned in past tense in the Quran
Q Yesterday evening, while studying arabic, (Holy Quran 3651), I asked my teacher why is the 'The trumpet shall be sounded' mentioned in past tense and we read it as future tense?
A My teacher explained that it is a special style of speech in Arabic (known as 'balagat' that when there is no doubt about a future event's happening, to emphasise, the event is discussed as it has already happened.
My mind kept wandering to Harun Yahya's book 'Eternity has already begun' and the comparison of our life to that of a pre-recorded videotape where you know exactly what happens at which part of the tape.
At night, I casually flicked through 'Parallel Worlds' by Michio Kaku, and subhan'Allah, open before me was page 154, where Pierre Simon de Laplace's work is mentioned, and I quote "He wrote that if a being could know the position and velocity of all the particles in the universe, 'for such an intellect, nothing could be uncertain; and the future just like the past would be present before his eyes.' " And then, on Pg 155, I quote from Einstein's position ".... Everything is determined... by forces over which we have no control.... for the insect as well as the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious time, intoned in the distance by an invisible player."Posted by Samiya Illias
Peace O0
Good stuff. You have just hit the difference between posted and reasoned or empirical belief. One has no facts or reason to substantiate it, the other looks back on physical laws and numerous repetitions which justify a belief - even though there is no certainty, from an epistemological viewpoint at least.
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God is the only thing that is. The rest is not. The rest is like a dream of the one that is. Everything else is because God dreams or imagines or makes it so that the ones in his dreams think they exist. Stops, is a dream where somebody dreams that he is clever and is going to catch somebody else with his cleverness...
I hope in this dream of God he can sell that cleverness and get something out of it. But ay be not in this forum, this forum is a dream where there re people that are not deterred nor put off by this kind of cleverness.
We may dream of particles, of predetermination, or determination, or freedim or free will... Only de Dreamer knows how or to what end those dreams are the way they are. But we should know that if we think we are predetermined we are dreaming within a dream, and if we have free determination, again we are also dreamers within a dream.
Only de Dreamer knows what He dreams and to what end.
Let us pray to the dreamer that the creatures in His dreams do not go through too much misery.
Salaam
This is presuppositionalistic apologetics. If there is only one thing in reality, then why am I reading this and thinking about it? In a dream anything a human can think of is possible. It is void of reality. Facts and physical limitations do not exist. If you find pleasure living in The Matrix, have fun.
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That is why I was surprised to hear that from you.
Well yes, but all-powerful is a human concept. Can an all-powerful god create a god which is more powerful? No, of course not because it is illogical.
The same goes for the question whether a god can create something he can't destroy.
This shows that the concept of omnipotence or all-powerful and all the other omni-x are human inventions and not really possible.Peace Stop S,
For one to imply that God is not in control would suggest some other force or forces are at work.
That argument is not sustainable in the face of the concept of oneness, if there are two entities
which would have final say? Therefore omnipotence is a true description, a sound deduction and a logical conclusion. The choice of the word, All-Powerful was used as a synonym to denote God's exemption from this
dimension.That is why I was surprised to hear that from you.
Also, if you think logically, humans are created because this creator/god felt like being worshipped. So logically, a creator creating humans who worship should be able to do so. But this is not true. Out of 5 humans which are created, only 1 worships the creator. So the success ratio is only 15. Is that what you would call "full control" over one's own creation?
aaaahhhhh, forgot free will huh? You of the creative mind will have to admit one of the most
sort after inventions is the self actualized software. The prize of the ages, a computer that can
think for itself, well my friend God has pulled it off with you! According to you, one in five that come
to the conclusion that "There is no God but God" necessitates that some will have to make other
choices, it's the ying and yang, the positive and negative the right and wrong the up and down
It's the mathamatical design of creation. This is a made reality with rules, and parameters.
I simply deduce that it would be better for me to obey the maker of this reality.Peace O0
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Peace Stop S,
For one to imply that God is not in control would suggest some other force or forces are at work.
How so? Why does there need to be control?
That argument is not sustainable in the face of the concept of oneness, if there are two entities which would have final say?
Therefore omnipotence is a true description, a sound deduction and a logical conclusion. The choice of the word, All-Powerful was used as a synonym to denote God's exemption from this dimension.So you say that a god can create another, even more powerful god?
aaaahhhhh, forgot free will huh? You of the creative mind will have to admit one of the most sort after inventions is the self actualized software. The prize of the ages, a computer that can think for itself, well my friend God has pulled it off with you!
No, I did not forget free will. There is no such thing as free will. Firstly, it is precluded if omniscience exists. Then, can a god send a good person and devout believer to hell? No, of course not, because that would be unjust, so not even a god would have free will - if it existed.
According to you, one in five that come to the conclusion that "There is no God but God" necessitates that some will have to make other choices, it's the ying and yang, the positive and negative the right and wrong the up and down
It's the mathamatical design of creation. This is a made reality with rules, and parameters.
I simply deduce that it would be better for me to obey the maker of this reality.Peace O0
Well, if 5 people are created and only 1 accepts Islam, the other 4 out of necessity were created differently somehow.
Haha, yes, I know you have huge respect for hell, allegoric or real.
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How so? Why does there need to be control?
Because limits are basic to any made/created thing.
So you say that a god can create another, even more powerful god?
No I am saying there is only one
Why would I, you, or anyone else do such a thing?
No, I did not forget free will. There is no such thing as free will. Firstly, it is precluded if omniscience exists. Then, can a god send a good person and devout believer to hell? No, of course not, because that would be unjust, so not even a god would have free will - if it existed.
We have free will, encompassed by God's will. Here is a very, very, very small simlitude
Small children have free will but parents have the final say.Well, if 5 people are created and only 1 accepts Islam, the other 4 out of necessity were created differently somehow.
Yep, I would suggest balance (yin & yang) might be the answer to that question.
Peace O0
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But the parents do not know beforehand, exactly how their children's lives will play out. There is something very essential that everyone is missing in this discussion. What is the point to God?
You have to truly think about it. God knew how everything would play out in His creation, before He even created in the first place.
God knew who would and would not go to Heaven or Hell, before creation even began.
This equates creation to a chain of cause and effect, to a shelf of movies. God just happened to play our movie, our version of creation. God could have played the cheesy one where not a single person goes to Hell, everyone is decent and good, where there is no disease, murder, rape, and much more. But He didn't. He created "this" universe, this creation.
So I ask you all to really think about what this means. What is the point of Creation to God, when He already knows how this creation, and any other, will play out, before it has even happened.
This means there is no test, because God already knew the answers before handing it out.
What is the point to God? Are we His play things?