The Challenge Yet To Be Met
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Peace,
I found this article interesting.
Future events mentioned in past tense in the Quran
Q Yesterday evening, while studying arabic, (Holy Quran 3651), I asked my teacher why is the 'The trumpet shall be sounded' mentioned in past tense and we read it as future tense?
A My teacher explained that it is a special style of speech in Arabic (known as 'balagat' that when there is no doubt about a future event's happening, to emphasise, the event is discussed as it has already happened.
My mind kept wandering to Harun Yahya's book 'Eternity has already begun' and the comparison of our life to that of a pre-recorded videotape where you know exactly what happens at which part of the tape.
At night, I casually flicked through 'Parallel Worlds' by Michio Kaku, and subhan'Allah, open before me was page 154, where Pierre Simon de Laplace's work is mentioned, and I quote "He wrote that if a being could know the position and velocity of all the particles in the universe, 'for such an intellect, nothing could be uncertain; and the future just like the past would be present before his eyes.' " And then, on Pg 155, I quote from Einstein's position ".... Everything is determined... by forces over which we have no control.... for the insect as well as the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious time, intoned in the distance by an invisible player."Posted by Samiya Illias
Peace O0
Good stuff. You have just hit the difference between posted and reasoned or empirical belief. One has no facts or reason to substantiate it, the other looks back on physical laws and numerous repetitions which justify a belief - even though there is no certainty, from an epistemological viewpoint at least.
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God is the only thing that is. The rest is not. The rest is like a dream of the one that is. Everything else is because God dreams or imagines or makes it so that the ones in his dreams think they exist. Stops, is a dream where somebody dreams that he is clever and is going to catch somebody else with his cleverness...
I hope in this dream of God he can sell that cleverness and get something out of it. But ay be not in this forum, this forum is a dream where there re people that are not deterred nor put off by this kind of cleverness.
We may dream of particles, of predetermination, or determination, or freedim or free will... Only de Dreamer knows how or to what end those dreams are the way they are. But we should know that if we think we are predetermined we are dreaming within a dream, and if we have free determination, again we are also dreamers within a dream.
Only de Dreamer knows what He dreams and to what end.
Let us pray to the dreamer that the creatures in His dreams do not go through too much misery.
Salaam
This is presuppositionalistic apologetics. If there is only one thing in reality, then why am I reading this and thinking about it? In a dream anything a human can think of is possible. It is void of reality. Facts and physical limitations do not exist. If you find pleasure living in The Matrix, have fun.
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That is why I was surprised to hear that from you.
Well yes, but all-powerful is a human concept. Can an all-powerful god create a god which is more powerful? No, of course not because it is illogical.
The same goes for the question whether a god can create something he can't destroy.
This shows that the concept of omnipotence or all-powerful and all the other omni-x are human inventions and not really possible.Peace Stop S,
For one to imply that God is not in control would suggest some other force or forces are at work.
That argument is not sustainable in the face of the concept of oneness, if there are two entities
which would have final say? Therefore omnipotence is a true description, a sound deduction and a logical conclusion. The choice of the word, All-Powerful was used as a synonym to denote God's exemption from this
dimension.That is why I was surprised to hear that from you.
Also, if you think logically, humans are created because this creator/god felt like being worshipped. So logically, a creator creating humans who worship should be able to do so. But this is not true. Out of 5 humans which are created, only 1 worships the creator. So the success ratio is only 15. Is that what you would call "full control" over one's own creation?
aaaahhhhh, forgot free will huh? You of the creative mind will have to admit one of the most
sort after inventions is the self actualized software. The prize of the ages, a computer that can
think for itself, well my friend God has pulled it off with you! According to you, one in five that come
to the conclusion that "There is no God but God" necessitates that some will have to make other
choices, it's the ying and yang, the positive and negative the right and wrong the up and down
It's the mathamatical design of creation. This is a made reality with rules, and parameters.
I simply deduce that it would be better for me to obey the maker of this reality.Peace O0
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Peace Stop S,
For one to imply that God is not in control would suggest some other force or forces are at work.
How so? Why does there need to be control?
That argument is not sustainable in the face of the concept of oneness, if there are two entities which would have final say?
Therefore omnipotence is a true description, a sound deduction and a logical conclusion. The choice of the word, All-Powerful was used as a synonym to denote God's exemption from this dimension.So you say that a god can create another, even more powerful god?
aaaahhhhh, forgot free will huh? You of the creative mind will have to admit one of the most sort after inventions is the self actualized software. The prize of the ages, a computer that can think for itself, well my friend God has pulled it off with you!
No, I did not forget free will. There is no such thing as free will. Firstly, it is precluded if omniscience exists. Then, can a god send a good person and devout believer to hell? No, of course not, because that would be unjust, so not even a god would have free will - if it existed.
According to you, one in five that come to the conclusion that "There is no God but God" necessitates that some will have to make other choices, it's the ying and yang, the positive and negative the right and wrong the up and down
It's the mathamatical design of creation. This is a made reality with rules, and parameters.
I simply deduce that it would be better for me to obey the maker of this reality.Peace O0
Well, if 5 people are created and only 1 accepts Islam, the other 4 out of necessity were created differently somehow.
Haha, yes, I know you have huge respect for hell, allegoric or real.
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How so? Why does there need to be control?
Because limits are basic to any made/created thing.
So you say that a god can create another, even more powerful god?
No I am saying there is only one
Why would I, you, or anyone else do such a thing?
No, I did not forget free will. There is no such thing as free will. Firstly, it is precluded if omniscience exists. Then, can a god send a good person and devout believer to hell? No, of course not, because that would be unjust, so not even a god would have free will - if it existed.
We have free will, encompassed by God's will. Here is a very, very, very small simlitude
Small children have free will but parents have the final say.Well, if 5 people are created and only 1 accepts Islam, the other 4 out of necessity were created differently somehow.
Yep, I would suggest balance (yin & yang) might be the answer to that question.
Peace O0
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But the parents do not know beforehand, exactly how their children's lives will play out. There is something very essential that everyone is missing in this discussion. What is the point to God?
You have to truly think about it. God knew how everything would play out in His creation, before He even created in the first place.
God knew who would and would not go to Heaven or Hell, before creation even began.
This equates creation to a chain of cause and effect, to a shelf of movies. God just happened to play our movie, our version of creation. God could have played the cheesy one where not a single person goes to Hell, everyone is decent and good, where there is no disease, murder, rape, and much more. But He didn't. He created "this" universe, this creation.
So I ask you all to really think about what this means. What is the point of Creation to God, when He already knows how this creation, and any other, will play out, before it has even happened.
This means there is no test, because God already knew the answers before handing it out.
What is the point to God? Are we His play things?
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But the parents do not know beforehand, exactly how their children's lives will play out. There is something very essential that everyone is missing in this discussion. What is the point to God?
You have to truly think about it. God knew how everything would play out in His creation, before He even created in the first place.
God knew who would and would not go to Heaven or Hell, before creation even began.
This equates creation to a chain of cause and effect, to a shelf of movies. God just happened to play our movie, our version of creation. God could have played the cheesy one where not a single person goes to Hell, everyone is decent and good, where there is no disease, murder, rape, and much more. But He didn't. He created "this" universe, this creation.
So I ask you all to really think about what this means. What is the point of Creation to God, when He already knows how this creation, and any other, will play out, before it has even happened.
This means there is no test, because God already knew the answers before handing it out.
What is the point to God? Are we His play things?Peace Bodhisvasti,
Your questions are not new, profound, or challenging for that matter only a rehashing of a philosophical argument.
Here is an important question to you
Do you recognize that knowledge has it's limits and that everything is not answerable?
I gave you the answer before, you just are not satisfied with it
I did not create the jinns and the humans except to worship Me alone.
You can ask why, why, why or if, if, if but we humans cannot answer certain questions
For us God is incomprehensible, we can "approach" God via his attributes, but reading God's mind
is not humanly possible.He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questioned.
The ball is in your hands, let's us know your conclusion.
Peace O0
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Hawk, that is not an answer at all. That is just putting it all on faith that you are right.
There is absolutely no reason that you can't at least attempt to think about a real answer. The reason that you won't directly answer it, is because you can't. There is no reasoning behind it. There is no getting out of it. What I stated was a fact, according to the ideology of both the Bible and the Qur'an, the idea of who God is. Even you can't deny this. But we have to take this a step further, and reason out how this makes sense. That was the point of this whole thing. To reason out how this could make sense. How we can have a point to existing in this ideology, and not just be play things, actors in a movie.
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Peace Bodhisvasti,
You stated Hawk, that is not an answer at all. That is just putting it all on faith that you are right.
My answer is not based on faith but reason and deduction.
Don't you understand that it is an answer that is not an acceptable answer to you?
I asked you for your conclusion, so where is it?
Peace and best wishes O0
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Quote God could have played the cheesy one where not a single person goes to Hell, everyone is decent and good, where there is no disease, murder, rape, and much more. But He didn't. He created "this" universe, this creation.
That would have been pointless! Where is " Free will " for the created ,if that has happened?
Say I make the decision that Tomorrow I will go shopping. God knows what I am going to do. But come tomorrow ,I will change my mind. I have decided not to go shopping not God. However God knew What I was going to do . I call that " free will".
So long as the creation have " free will" your quote cannot happen.
Peace.
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So long as the creation have " free will" your quote cannot happen.
If you contemplate hard enough you shall find that in the context of absolute truth, human doesn't have a "Free Will". Although they like such idea.. and they are under an illusion that they do have a free will..
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Peace Bodhisvasti,
You stated Hawk, that is not an answer at all. That is just putting it all on faith that you are right.
My answer is not based on faith but reason and deduction.
Don't you understand that it is an answer that is not an acceptable answer to you?
I asked you for your conclusion, so where is it?
Peace and best wishes O0
It's not an answer that would be accepted by a school. You're not addressing the issue of what the point is to God, how this is any different to a movie.
And good logic, you're still not addressing the issue that God knew before the moment of creation, that you would change your mind and not go shopping, that you would die on such and such day, that you would go to heaven and not hell.
What is the point to a God in this perception?
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
I was only addressing your quote.
I have already said , there are some things we do not have answers to.
However I am confident we will. When?
7172 Recall ( There is a barrier between this life and ?other life? hence the reminder!) that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam ( Humans, prior to this life and creation of this universe) and had them bear witness for themselves ( Yes each and every individual!)? am I not your Lord?? ( One ruler, One authority, One system so that we do not divide ourselves into factions/tribes?) They all said? Yes we bear witness? ( You will remember this covenant on the day of judgement?) thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection? We were not aware of this.?
We will also have the answers.
If we had all the answers, this life will not be a test any more.
Peace
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Because limits are basic to any made/created thing.
Maybe in connection with creation. But not if we look at a non-god existing existence just content with natural laws.
No I am saying there is only one
Hahaha, I know that by now. But you say that one god is omnipotent. Does that mean all-powerful? So, can, theoretically, this all-powerful being create another all-powerful being?
Why would I, you, or anyone else do such a thing?
We have free will, encompassed by God's will. Here is a very, very, very small simlitude
Small children have free will but parents have the final say.I just showed you that god can't have a will. He is bound by his own laws. And there is no free will for humans either because of that.
Yep, I would suggest balance (yin & yang) might be the answer to that question.
Peace O0
How so? How is a success rate of 15 a matter of Ying and Yang or balance? Please explain, thanks.
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But the parents do not know beforehand, exactly how their children's lives will play out. There is something very essential that everyone is missing in this discussion. What is the point to God?
You have to truly think about it. God knew how everything would play out in His creation, before He even created in the first place.
God knew who would and would not go to Heaven or Hell, before creation even began.
This equates creation to a chain of cause and effect, to a shelf of movies. God just happened to play our movie, our version of creation. God could have played the cheesy one where not a single person goes to Hell, everyone is decent and good, where there is no disease, murder, rape, and much more. But He didn't. He created "this" universe, this creation.
So I ask you all to really think about what this means. What is the point of Creation to God, when He already knows how this creation, and any other, will play out, before it has even happened.
This means there is no test, because God already knew the answers before handing it out.
What is the point to God? Are we His play things?
Good question. And the answer is ...... I can't find a drum-roll icon
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
I was only addressing your quote.
I have already said , there are some things we do not have answers to.
However I am confident we will. When?
7172 Recall ( There is a barrier between this life and ?other life? hence the reminder!) that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam ( Humans, prior to this life and creation of this universe) and had them bear witness for themselves ( Yes each and every individual!)? am I not your Lord?? ( One ruler, One authority, One system so that we do not divide ourselves into factions/tribes?) They all said? Yes we bear witness? ( You will remember this covenant on the day of judgement?) thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection? We were not aware of this.?
We will also have the answers.
If we had all the answers, this life will not be a test any more.
Peace
That's incorrect. We do have the answer. Many just don't want to say it. The answer is simple. Either God is evil, or it is our perception of God that is wrong.
The Sufi perception of God, or the Gnostic and Hindu perception, would actually allow this. But we still have the barbaric view of who God is.
Plain and simple, it is our current perception of who God is, that is wrong. And this challenge I put forth proves that, it destroys the common idea of God, because it does not make sense, and at most is evil.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Quote Plain and simple, it is our current perception of who God is, that is wrong.
You have not mentioned what is the right perception of God.?
As far as I can make out from your post , it is not plain or simple.
When did you come to your conclusion?
Or If you knew that all the time , why did you ask the question in the first place?
I am confused by your statement .
Peace.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Quote Plain and simple, it is our current perception of who God is, that is wrong.
You have not mentioned what is the right perception of God.?
As far as I can make out from your post , it is not plain or simple.
When did you come to your conclusion?
Or If you knew that all the time , why did you ask the question in the first place?
I am confused by your statement .
Peace.
It's plain and simple in that the common idea of an all knowing, all powerful God, completely separate from the universe, could never exist. The idea itself does not make sense. Creation to a being such as this would be pointless, meaningless. No creation whatsoever that this being would create, could ever be satisfying, because in that beings mind, everything has already played out.
And I never said I had the right perception. I just said that the Sufi, Gnostic, and Hindu perception of God would allow this all knowing trait. Because to them, we are an essence, an actual piece of God, we are God.
I came to this conclusion, in an effort to make sense of the Qur'an. Because without this, or another explanation, God of the Qur'an can not make sense.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Thank you for your explanation.
Also I did not say you have the right perception, i asked is there one?
To me the God of the Qoran invites us to get closer and closer to knowing Him by
1- Believing He exists. ( He is the Creator of everything)?2- Imploring Him, trusting in Him to guide us towards certainty?
3- Believing His message, and studying it to try and make sense of our life and to try our best to live according to His instructions by following His path?
It is a difficult challenge. With pain ,there is gain.
Peace.
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Peace Bodhisvasti,
Thank you for your conclusion, your attempt to psychoanalyze God, and understand "his point"
has apparently led you back to your initial conclusion. You think that your definition of the
Islamic God (Allah) is sound without consulting the text that explains who he is is an error.
An understanding of the Quran would have helped you immensely. Instead you decided to rely
on humans with our limited understanding for the foundation of your conclusion and ended up like the
proverbial dog chasing his tail.You said Maybe. Could very well be so. And those verses are rather disappointing. It destroys the idea of the Quranic God, or at the least, makes it evil.
As I stated earlier it is your perception of God that is in error to you Allah is evil.
Even satan has not made such a statement! I wish you well on your journey.Peace O0