The Challenge Yet To Be Met
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Peace Bodhisvasti,
You stated Hawk, that is not an answer at all. That is just putting it all on faith that you are right.
My answer is not based on faith but reason and deduction.
Don't you understand that it is an answer that is not an acceptable answer to you?
I asked you for your conclusion, so where is it?
Peace and best wishes O0
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Quote God could have played the cheesy one where not a single person goes to Hell, everyone is decent and good, where there is no disease, murder, rape, and much more. But He didn't. He created "this" universe, this creation.
That would have been pointless! Where is " Free will " for the created ,if that has happened?
Say I make the decision that Tomorrow I will go shopping. God knows what I am going to do. But come tomorrow ,I will change my mind. I have decided not to go shopping not God. However God knew What I was going to do . I call that " free will".
So long as the creation have " free will" your quote cannot happen.
Peace.
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So long as the creation have " free will" your quote cannot happen.
If you contemplate hard enough you shall find that in the context of absolute truth, human doesn't have a "Free Will". Although they like such idea.. and they are under an illusion that they do have a free will..
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Peace Bodhisvasti,
You stated Hawk, that is not an answer at all. That is just putting it all on faith that you are right.
My answer is not based on faith but reason and deduction.
Don't you understand that it is an answer that is not an acceptable answer to you?
I asked you for your conclusion, so where is it?
Peace and best wishes O0
It's not an answer that would be accepted by a school. You're not addressing the issue of what the point is to God, how this is any different to a movie.
And good logic, you're still not addressing the issue that God knew before the moment of creation, that you would change your mind and not go shopping, that you would die on such and such day, that you would go to heaven and not hell.
What is the point to a God in this perception?
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
I was only addressing your quote.
I have already said , there are some things we do not have answers to.
However I am confident we will. When?
7172 Recall ( There is a barrier between this life and ?other life? hence the reminder!) that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam ( Humans, prior to this life and creation of this universe) and had them bear witness for themselves ( Yes each and every individual!)? am I not your Lord?? ( One ruler, One authority, One system so that we do not divide ourselves into factions/tribes?) They all said? Yes we bear witness? ( You will remember this covenant on the day of judgement?) thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection? We were not aware of this.?
We will also have the answers.
If we had all the answers, this life will not be a test any more.
Peace
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Because limits are basic to any made/created thing.
Maybe in connection with creation. But not if we look at a non-god existing existence just content with natural laws.
No I am saying there is only one
Hahaha, I know that by now. But you say that one god is omnipotent. Does that mean all-powerful? So, can, theoretically, this all-powerful being create another all-powerful being?
Why would I, you, or anyone else do such a thing?
We have free will, encompassed by God's will. Here is a very, very, very small simlitude
Small children have free will but parents have the final say.I just showed you that god can't have a will. He is bound by his own laws. And there is no free will for humans either because of that.
Yep, I would suggest balance (yin & yang) might be the answer to that question.
Peace O0
How so? How is a success rate of 15 a matter of Ying and Yang or balance? Please explain, thanks.
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But the parents do not know beforehand, exactly how their children's lives will play out. There is something very essential that everyone is missing in this discussion. What is the point to God?
You have to truly think about it. God knew how everything would play out in His creation, before He even created in the first place.
God knew who would and would not go to Heaven or Hell, before creation even began.
This equates creation to a chain of cause and effect, to a shelf of movies. God just happened to play our movie, our version of creation. God could have played the cheesy one where not a single person goes to Hell, everyone is decent and good, where there is no disease, murder, rape, and much more. But He didn't. He created "this" universe, this creation.
So I ask you all to really think about what this means. What is the point of Creation to God, when He already knows how this creation, and any other, will play out, before it has even happened.
This means there is no test, because God already knew the answers before handing it out.
What is the point to God? Are we His play things?
Good question. And the answer is ...... I can't find a drum-roll icon
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
I was only addressing your quote.
I have already said , there are some things we do not have answers to.
However I am confident we will. When?
7172 Recall ( There is a barrier between this life and ?other life? hence the reminder!) that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam ( Humans, prior to this life and creation of this universe) and had them bear witness for themselves ( Yes each and every individual!)? am I not your Lord?? ( One ruler, One authority, One system so that we do not divide ourselves into factions/tribes?) They all said? Yes we bear witness? ( You will remember this covenant on the day of judgement?) thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection? We were not aware of this.?
We will also have the answers.
If we had all the answers, this life will not be a test any more.
Peace
That's incorrect. We do have the answer. Many just don't want to say it. The answer is simple. Either God is evil, or it is our perception of God that is wrong.
The Sufi perception of God, or the Gnostic and Hindu perception, would actually allow this. But we still have the barbaric view of who God is.
Plain and simple, it is our current perception of who God is, that is wrong. And this challenge I put forth proves that, it destroys the common idea of God, because it does not make sense, and at most is evil.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Quote Plain and simple, it is our current perception of who God is, that is wrong.
You have not mentioned what is the right perception of God.?
As far as I can make out from your post , it is not plain or simple.
When did you come to your conclusion?
Or If you knew that all the time , why did you ask the question in the first place?
I am confused by your statement .
Peace.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Quote Plain and simple, it is our current perception of who God is, that is wrong.
You have not mentioned what is the right perception of God.?
As far as I can make out from your post , it is not plain or simple.
When did you come to your conclusion?
Or If you knew that all the time , why did you ask the question in the first place?
I am confused by your statement .
Peace.
It's plain and simple in that the common idea of an all knowing, all powerful God, completely separate from the universe, could never exist. The idea itself does not make sense. Creation to a being such as this would be pointless, meaningless. No creation whatsoever that this being would create, could ever be satisfying, because in that beings mind, everything has already played out.
And I never said I had the right perception. I just said that the Sufi, Gnostic, and Hindu perception of God would allow this all knowing trait. Because to them, we are an essence, an actual piece of God, we are God.
I came to this conclusion, in an effort to make sense of the Qur'an. Because without this, or another explanation, God of the Qur'an can not make sense.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Thank you for your explanation.
Also I did not say you have the right perception, i asked is there one?
To me the God of the Qoran invites us to get closer and closer to knowing Him by
1- Believing He exists. ( He is the Creator of everything)?2- Imploring Him, trusting in Him to guide us towards certainty?
3- Believing His message, and studying it to try and make sense of our life and to try our best to live according to His instructions by following His path?
It is a difficult challenge. With pain ,there is gain.
Peace.
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Peace Bodhisvasti,
Thank you for your conclusion, your attempt to psychoanalyze God, and understand "his point"
has apparently led you back to your initial conclusion. You think that your definition of the
Islamic God (Allah) is sound without consulting the text that explains who he is is an error.
An understanding of the Quran would have helped you immensely. Instead you decided to rely
on humans with our limited understanding for the foundation of your conclusion and ended up like the
proverbial dog chasing his tail.You said Maybe. Could very well be so. And those verses are rather disappointing. It destroys the idea of the Quranic God, or at the least, makes it evil.
As I stated earlier it is your perception of God that is in error to you Allah is evil.
Even satan has not made such a statement! I wish you well on your journey.Peace O0
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Hawk. Some of us don't take things for granted. I am not psychoanalyzing God. You're God did not make sense in the perception that most Muslims have of Him. That is a fact, as I have shown you.
God knows all, past, present, and future. Everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen, has already played out in Gods mind. This is nonsense. The idea makes creation pointless/meaningless to God.
It is the perception of God that I offered, that allows your Qur'an to make sense. Otherwise, everything has been destined, and can be equated to nothing more than a chain of cause and effect, a movie.
I have an understanding of the Qur'an, but unlike you, i'm guessing, I also have an understanding of the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, the Pali Canon, the Tao Te ching, the Bible, the Gnostic Scriptures, the Adi Granth, and much, much more. My knowledge is not inclusive, or biased, and I never accept something immediately out of hope or faith, it must make sense.
Your problem is that you assume that we are so limited in our human knowledge and understanding, that we can't even question what is taught to us. You are very wrong, and as I have shown you, we are more then capable of understanding this, discussing it, and calling it on its nonsense.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Thank you for your explanation.
Also I did not say you have the right perception, i asked is there one?
To me the God of the Qoran invites us to get closer and closer to knowing Him by
1- Believing He exists. ( He is the Creator of everything)?2- Imploring Him, trusting in Him to guide us towards certainty?
3- Believing His message, and studying it to try and make sense of our life and to try our best to live according to His instructions by following His path?
It is a difficult challenge. With pain ,there is gain.
Peace.
I understand what you mean. Like I had said from the beginning, I am not trying to attack your faith. I just want to question and better understand, as well as make others think about the things they believe in. I have a lot of respect for the Qur'an, in fact I read a Juz' of it every day.
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It's plain and simple in that the common idea of an all knowing, all powerful God, completely separate from the universe, could never exist. The idea itself does not make sense. Creation to a being such as this would be pointless, meaningless. No creation whatsoever that this being would create, could ever be satisfying, because in that beings mind, everything has already played out.
And I never said I had the right perception. I just said that the Sufi, Gnostic, and Hindu perception of God would allow this all knowing trait. Because to them, we are an essence, an actual piece of God, we are God.
You're right..
A God/Deity which is "Completely Separate From The Universe" is actually yet another legacy from paganistic mindset. Paganism rule the western world (middle east included) for many centuries and it's influence can be strongly felt up until now.In the pagan universe / way of thinking, God or Deities have 'human like' characteristic. As such they have dwelling place or a home. Thus the God(s) or deity/deities lives in the "God Realm". The name varies ranging from Assguard errgh.. I mean Asgards, Aaru, Heaven (Hoffon) etc..
That's why for them, it 'make sense' for God to 'descend' to earth, or visit earth (usually only for short stay) to perform something and then 'ascended' back to His home.
Thus the whole conception of "God totally separate from this Universe" was born...
God / Gods is 'over there' (usually above) living in 'their realm' and not here which is 'our realm'.And back in the middle ages those who dare to think the above conception is false are deemed as 'heretics' and must be put to death... voodoo voodoo voodoo
This line of thinking is ever present now.. even on this forum....
Salam / Peace
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I agree, Jafar. We look for God all the time, but always with this pagan-like perception of Him. But that idea is so unrealistic and nonsensical, it simply can't be.
Thank you for the input, I think that explains a lot as to why we constantly see God in this specific way.
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I agree, Jafar. We look for God all the time, but always with this pagan-like perception of Him. But that idea is so unrealistic and nonsensical, it simply can't be.
Thank you for the input, I think that explains a lot as to why we constantly see God in this specific way.
And it was designed 'on purpose'.
As God/Gods/Goddesses need to be 'far away' and 'out of reach' in order to entice the needs for mediator / agent on earth (read Priest) and other artifacts (read holy books, statue, holy stone etc..) or even 'holy places' which also 'mediate' the interaction between man (or woman) and God/Gods/Goddesses.Thus the notion of "God's book", "God's prophet", "God's Home", "God's stone", "God's statue" become common and make sense to them..
IF..
Everyone can reach God (as God is ever present and all-knowing etc..) then there will be no need for any mediator as mentioned above.. thus it will be a 'bad business' for the entire religion industry, and the whole religion industry will crumble down to ashes..
Thus.. they impose harsh penalty (e.g. death penalty through stoning or burning) for those who dare to think in 'unpaganistic' way of thinking.Salam / Peace
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Please explain the following, quote
It is the perception of God that I offered, that allows your Qur'an to make sense. Otherwise, everything has been destined, and can be equated to nothing more than a chain of cause and effect, a movie.
I have tried to find what perception you offered and where but could not find it?
Peace Jafar.
Quote And back in the middle ages those who dare to think the above conception is false are deemed as 'heretics' and must be put to death...
What is the true conception? Does that make God still knowing everything? Do we need a message from God? Do we need messengers? Is instinct enough?
While you are saying " conception of a separate deity is false", you have not explained your perception clearly.?
Peace.
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What is the true conception? Does that make God still knowing everything? Do we need a message from God? Do we need messengers? Is instinct enough?
Why ask me? Why ask others?
Given you can reach and ask God directly..
While you are saying " conception of a separate deity is false", you have not explained your perception clearly.?
Peace.Sometime 'truth' need to be discovered by yourselves..
Salam / Peace
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Logic, I named off three different ones that have similar perceptions.
Many Hindus believe that Brahman is the source of all, and that we are nothing but a piece of Him, not all Hindus are polytheistic, many are Monotheistic, in this sense. Some of the Gnostics believe that by obtaining Gnosis, they can unite with God, their essence that is, after the physical body dies. And the Sufi have very similar writings as well.
I have given you what you need. It doesn't take much to look these things up online. A true truth seeker does not seek the truth in just one book, in just one teaching.