The Challenge Yet To Be Met
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Greetings and Peace, all group
@Bodhisvasti welcome
Knowledge does not equal culpability. If one knows of a crime, the knower is not equal to the criminal.
Likewise, a parent is not responsible for the actions of a grown child.
The same fire that warms can also burn. Is fire inherently evil? Too much water and we drown; too little and we thirst to death. Again, is evil at work?
Is evil a real force, or merely the lack of good? Darkness is the absence of light. Coldness is the absence of warmth/heat. One can't make cold; one must transport heat. One can't make dark; one must (re)move light. Evil is the lack of good, nothing more.
Here is some perspective from a Christian source http//grigaitis.net/articles/evil.html
What makes creation entitled to goodness, if we don't make it for ourselves? ALLAH isn't stingy--but there are those that are stingy/ungrateful among creation.
What is "pre-determined"/foreknown by ALLAH is not foreknown to us; we have freedom within the physical laws of the universe. That some choose evil is not a reflection on ALLAH--and ALLAH is beyond needing defense or justification in any case.
Would it change your perspective if ALLAH could know every action, but chose not to?
In any case, AQ provides a system that allows for respect for one another; it encourages good. Secular philosophy also provides a system. In what way does the belief in ALLAH make the system of islam somehow worse than belief in another system?
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Abdul. That doesn't make sense, and those are poor comparisons, no offense.
God made Satan, knowing he would be evil and tempt us, before making him. God did NOT have to make Satan, but did anyways, knowing he would be evil, and tempt us. Therefore, God made evil.
When a scientist knowingly mixes chemicals into a dish that together, will explode, is that scientist not knowingly responsible? Yes.
God knew everything that would happen in the Universe, on our planet, before he made everything. Did God have to make this specific Universe? No.
Everything is inherently pre-destined if God knew all that would happen in Creation, before he even created. So that means, if God made this Universe, everything that has, and will happen, he already pre-determined, by making this particular version of Creation.
That means before Creation, this thread was already known to Him, was already clear in his mind that this conversation would take place. That is pre-destination.
Yeah. We choose. We can think. We have free will. But that is only an illusion according to the belief in an all knowing God that created us, and everything, knowing before creating, everything that would happen, and even be thought. That means that even our free will is pre-determined.
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Hoppean. The only conclusion you could possibly make is just that. Everything is pre-determined. Everything is conditioned.
God did make evil, did he not? Did he not make Satan with the foreknowledge that he would rebel and tempt us?
Did he not create suffering in the first place, when he had the choice not to?
Did he not make Hell, as well as condition many to be destined for it?
Would I not be a Muslim if God, before Creation, twisted it just a bit to where I was born and raised in say Saudi Arabia?
Many say to that, that there is a plan. But that can't be, because the plan is already fulfilled according to the Quran, by Gods knowledge of everything. There can be no plan. Only a movie, because God knows all.
While I do not disagree with anything written above, I am also not scandalized by it. For the scriptures say "At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, ?What have you done?? (Daniel 434-35)
And "For the Lord has poured out upon you a spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes (the prophets), and covered your heads (the seers). And the vision of all this has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed. When men give it to one who can read, saying, ?Read this,? he says, ?I cannot, for it is sealed.? And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, ?Read this,? he says, ?I cannot read.? And the Lord said ?Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men, therefore, behold, I will again do wonderful things with this people, with wonder upon wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hidden.? Ah, you who hide deep from the Lord your counsel, whose deeds are in the dark, and who say, ?Who sees us? Who knows us?? You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay,that the thing made should say of its maker, ?He did not make me?; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, ?He has no understanding??
It comes down to this "Oh man who are you to answer back to God? Will the thing moulded say to the moulder, "why have you made me like this?" (Romans 920)
The problem you have (if indeed you have one) is that you do not acknowledge that God is God and we are nothing. God ordaining our fall, in no way excuses us, for "necessity" is never an appeal againt justice, in this life or the next.
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Knowledge of God isn't dependent on any conditions from Africa to Saudi Arabia. The premise is we all have it and/or can come to it regardless of conditions. Abraham is the best example from the quran.
674 "And Abraham said to his father Do you make idols as objects of worship? Truly I see you and your people in clear error"
675 "And thus we caused Abraham to see the dominion of the heavens and the earth so that he would become of those who were certain"
676 "So when the night covered him, he saw a star; and he said "This is my Lord". But when it descended he said " I do not love those that descend".
677 "So when he saw the moon rise, he said "This is my Lord". So when it descended, he said "If my Lord does not guide me, truly I will be among those people who are in error"
We do not see Abraham trusting in his "free will" or saying that "he/anyone can come to the truth about God, if he/anyone feels like it". On the contrary, he proclaims his complete inability to know God truly, without His guidance. With this he refutes any pretext that men can will, or even have the capacity, to come to God, unless God draws him first with guidance.
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Hoppean, all you are doing is making excuses for Him now. What reason is there for creation when God knows all, no matter what he creates, when it means everything is pre-destined.
You are telling me you are okay with us being nothing more then artwork. You are telling me you are okay with God making people, just to burn in hell for all of eternity, that is their destiny in fact, as I have shown you.
I can't be okay with that. I refuse intellectually to worship a God who pre-destines before the beginning of Creation, men and women to burn in hell forever.
If I can create a better world in my mind then an 'all-knowing' God could, then there is something wrong here.
I was kind of hoping there would be some kind of Ayat that could calm my mind about this.
But it just comes down to, either God knows all, and destined many of us to suffer in hell, or the God of the Quran does not exist, cannot exist.
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674 "And Abraham said to his father Do you make idols as objects of worship? Truly I see you and your people in clear error"
675 "And thus we caused Abraham to see the dominion of the heavens and the earth so that he would become of those who were certain"
676 "So when the night covered him, he saw a star; and he said "This is my Lord". But when it descended he said " I do not love those that descend".
677 "So when he saw the moon rise, he said "This is my Lord". So when it descended, he said "If my Lord does not guide me, truly I will be among those people who are in error"
We do not see Abraham trusting in his "free will" or saying that "he/anyone can come to the truth about God, if he/anyone feels like it". On the contrary, he proclaims his complete inability to know God truly, without His guidance. With this he refutes any pretext that men can will, or even have the capacity, to come to God, unless God draws him first with guidance.
678 Then, when he beheld the sun rising, he said, "This is my Sustainer! This one is the greatest !" - but when it went down, he exclaimed "O my people! Behold, far be it from me to ascribe divinity, as you do, to aught beside God!
679 Behold, unto Him who brought into being the heavens and the earth have I turned my face, having turned away from all that is false; and I am not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him."
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Check these Ayats - 7 172 to 7174-
GOD is reminding you what happened before this phisical creation of humans.
Peace.
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678 Then, when he beheld the sun rising, he said, "This is my Sustainer! This one is the greatest !" - but when it went down, he exclaimed "O my people! Behold, far be it from me to ascribe divinity, as you do, to aught beside God!
679 Behold, unto Him who brought into being the heavens and the earth have I turned my face, having turned away from all that is false; and I am not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him."
So "I turned my face..." etc means "I did it all thanks to my own "free will" and God had nothing to do with it; even though two verses earlier I confessed that if God didn't guide me I would be among those in error". Nice! If that's the extent of your argumentation, then nothing else needs to be said.
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So "I turned my face..." etc means "I did it all thanks to my own "free will" and God had nothing to do with it; even though two verses earlier I confessed that if God didn't guide me I would be among those in error". Nice! If that's the extent of your argumentation, then nothing else needs to be said.
Read from 675. Abraham exercised his reasoning. This anyone can do. We need no scripture and no special people to see the reality of God which is all around us even if we close our eyes. Bringing up but who guides first! who sees first? is useless. Our inbuilt mechanisms for reasoning, conscience, intuition etc are taken into account. We are built for guidance, we have guidance, we have to choose to see and so on. The extent of your 'solid' argumentation is to say "God is God we are nothing" ... thanks, that explained everything and not just to the OP.
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Salaam Bodhisvasti,
How did you come to this understanding, is it from the Quran or from some atheist sources?
If it's from the Quran can you please quote some verses.Thank you,
BenderSorry everyone. I have been away for a few days. So I couldn't respond at all, until now.
There is no need to go into the Quran and pull out the multiple verses that say God knows everything. It's said in just about every Surah, I think.
And none of these answers really answer the fact that, in believing this...
Creation is a pointless experiment, as there is nothing for God to learn. You do not 'test' to see something you already know will come to fruition. You already know the answer. No matter what.
Creation is evil, as God knew before the moment of its beginning, who would and would not go to hell, thus, pre-destination at its highest level.
Everything has a cause, even the Universe, this I will agree with. However...
Again. If God knows all, then what possible point could there be in creating? Unless there is something in our making that stops him from kinowing what we will do, then we were already destined for Heaven or Hell.
I have thought about it alot lately. And the only conclusion I can come up with is this...
In making us, God created the so called 'free will', that free will being our ability to contemplate, to think and understand a thing. But God can't know what we will think in the future, exactly what we will do, etc. Otherwise it is all for nothing, pointless, and evil.
You see. I can understand and agree with a God who created the Universe, and sentient beings such as ourselves, simply to worship Him. To give the good ever lasting bliss, and the bad ever lasting torture. A God who really loves his Creation, and wants nothing more then for us to earn Heaven.
But this can't exist with knowing everything that we will think, say, and do in the future, before the moment of Creation. Otherwise, that God would have pre-determined us for Heaven and Hell. It simply does not make sense. And it only an evil thing.
Yeah. I see alot of people replying with "Of course we have free will!", but if you believe in an all knowing God, one who knew BEFORE Creation, all that you would THINK, say, and do, then there is no real free will. It means that He destined some of us for Hell, and some of us for Heaven, period. Period. There is no getting around that. We do not have true free will if this was all going to be thought, said, and done in the first place, which it would, simply because God knew all before the moment of Creation.
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Of course we have a free will to some small degree, a small amount.
It is futile to think, or argue, FROM the God's point of view, because, not only we cannot understand God, the whole universe, and myriad of realities of the Universe, let alone the complete and whole vision and thought God might have of everything, but we cannot even imagine God's reasons!
It is utterly presumptuous for man to imagine himself in the place of God!
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GODsubmitter.
It's not that it is presumptous, or futile to think from the point of view of God. It's that you can't justify omniscience on the level that God is typically thought of having. Everyone I ask this question to can never answer it directly, or if they do, it doesn't make sense to the rational mind.
God knows everything, past, present, and future, nothing is hidden from God.
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God made the Universe, Creation.
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God knew before making the Universe, who would and would not go to Heaven and Hell. Because he made it just so.God pre-destined billions for eternal suffering in flame.
There just is no way of getting around this. Except for one route. God knows all, past, and present only. He can't know the future. He can know what he will guarantee, such as the last day, but he has no knwledge of wether or not I will be worthy of Heaven or Hell until my life unfolds and I die.
That is the only way to justify this. I think I will just continue to read the Quran, pray, and hope I find the answer to this dilemma.
Thank you everyone for your answers.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
You need to know about the " Original sin". GOD to start with ( Before this life) created beings that make up their own minds.
GOD s system( was/is and always will be ) is that HE Alone sustains HIS creation. HE requires total trust /loyalty and obedience.
We doubted that HE alone can be" The Only GOD". We were willing ( our own choice)to accept others of HIS creation as " gods/authority" ie we rebelled against HIS system. ( Original sin)
GOD also knew that some will redeem themselves back to HIS system, that is why HE created this universe to give them that chance.
The attributes of GOD indicates why HE creates, gives the choice and allows HIS creations to make their own decisions.
Even in our system , more than one leader leads to division/wars/chaos...
In GOD s system HE is the only GOD/ Authority... That allows unity/order/happiness...
This life is that test. That is why GOD created death. ( First death after the original sin " Heavenly feud", second death after this life then resurrection and offer of choice " GOD or not GOD".
This is all in Qoran. ( Whether GOD knew all along does not affect the choice of HIS subjects/beings/creations.)
Peace.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
You need to know about the " Original sin". GOD to start with ( Before this life) created beings that make up their own minds.
GOD s system( was/is and always will be ) is that HE Alone sustains HIS creation. HE requires total trust /loyalty and obedience.
We doubted that HE alone can be" The Only GOD". We were willing ( our own choice)to accept others of HIS creation as " gods/authority" ie we rebelled against HIS system. ( Original sin)
GOD also knew that some will redeem themselves back to HIS system, that is why HE created this universe to give them that chance.
The attributes of GOD indicates why HE creates, gives the choice and allows HIS creations to make their own decisions.
Even in our system , more than one leader leads to division/wars/chaos...
In GOD s system HE is the only GOD/ Authority... That allows unity/order/happiness...
This life is that test. That is why GOD created death. ( First death after the original sin " Heavenly feud", second death after this life then resurrection and offer of choice " GOD or not GOD".
This is all in Qoran. ( Whether GOD knew all along does not affect the choice of HIS subjects/beings/creations.)
Peace.
None of this addresses the fact that God knew, even before Creation, when there was nothing, who would and would not go to Heaven and Hell. That means God knew that if he created in this way, this universe would happen, of if he created that way, that universe would happen. If he created this way, these people would go to hell, or if he created that way, those people would go to hell.
There can be no real test, when the answer to that test is already known before it is even handed out. It would be like writing myself a test, asking when I was born, I already know the answer, so why would I ask myself that?
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Let me give you this example, in our system the exam board know the answers and grades to all the questions, (Also the teachers more or less know who is going to pass) .Does this mean do not bother to test the students?
I do not understand your way of reasoning? The two actions are " independent".
Peace.
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Peace Bodhisvasti,
When I read that God knows our future, i understood it as God knows all our possible diferent future depending upon the choices we make. So this doesnt take away our free will. For example the choice whether I should be a believer or not is entirely on me, but God knows the end result of both the possible choices. Whether i choose to beleive or not is entirely on me & this shows that what I choose is not determined by God but God being God knows how my future would be if I a) I choose to be a beleiver b) I do not become a believer.
Hope I was able to explain my understanding.
Peace!
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Let me give you this example, in our system the exam board know the answers and grades to all the questions, (Also the teachers more or less know who is going to pass) .Does this mean do not bother to test the students?
I do not understand your way of reasoning? The two actions are " independent".
Peace.
good logic,
The point of a test is to learn. For God, there is supposedly nothing to learn, for He knows all. Creation is the exam board, and God knows the answers to everything, before even handing out to the test. God knows before creating that exam board, what students will pass, and who will fail. God made those who would take the test, knowing if they would pass or fail, before even making those testers. So why bother testing?
Peace Bodhisvasti,
When I read that God knows our future, i understood it as God knows all our possible diferent future depending upon the choices we make. So this doesnt take away our free will. For example the choice whether I should be a believer or not is entirely on me, but God knows the end result of both the possible choices. Whether i choose to beleive or not is entirely on me & this shows that what I choose is not determined by God but God being God knows how my future would be if I a) I choose to be a beleiver b) I do not become a believer.
Hope I was able to explain my understanding.
Peace!
Eve,
I understand what you mean. But you still don't take into account that God knew before the moment of Creation, what you would think, say, and do, before even creating you. At least, this is the mainstream thought as to Gods omniscience.
So yes, God knows the outcome of your decision, but he also knew the decision you would make in the first place, everything that you would think, say, and do, even before your life began. Before your parents life began, He knew what you would think, say, and do. Before Adam and Eve, he knew what you would think, say, and do.
And to further expand this even more, even before you made it to Heaven, before God created the Universe, He knew all that you would think, say, and do, in Heaven, for all of eternity.
Essentially, this means that God destined people for Hell, and people for Heaven. The only way around this is that God does not know the future, other then what he will do, guarantee. He can't know what you will think, say, and do in the future, or else His very existence is madness. Our making, our having souls, would have to stop this all-knowing in someway, or Creation is pre-destined. God did not have to make this universe, knowing all of this would happen. He could have created that universe, knowing all of that would happen, where all made it to Heaven.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
If GOD knew those HE was giving HIS gift to, but they had to deserve it. What is wrong with HIM knowing before hand?
It is for their benefit that HE created. Even though HE knew who deserves and who does not deserve.
It is the only way all the creations get to know" free will".
Peace.