Are we going the wrong way ?

good_logic

Peace Farida.

I am not questioning your respect for Muhamed. I also believe in Muhamed and respect him.

I am questioning your suggestion ,Quote the prophet did get other information than what was meant to be revealed in the Qur?an

Also I quoted Qoran that we are not to follow any other source . I am going to use Qoran to further clarify that we are only meant to follow "Qoran"

Do not move your tongue to hasten it.

It is we who will collect it into Quran.

Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Quran.

Then it is we who will explain it.

If the prophet got other information and it is not in the Qoran, then we are forbidden from following it. It will be another source, hence we will be committing " idol worship" according to GOD.

Peace.

Bigmo

peace

I didn't say they were denying him, they just don't give him much credit, IMO. As for other prophets, I noticed they were described as highly cool guys when quoting the "do not make difference among messengers" verse. Surely, they all are on the same level, but I'm sure Sunnis are more fascinated with Muhammad because of his title "the crown of prophethood" and more available "info" about him, given through Ahadith. People can more associate with Muhammad, it seems that he was more "real" (hope you won't misunderstand what I'm saying) than for example Moses, who split the sea or Jesus and his miraculous birth, etc. who can appear to some people as superheros while Muhammad was just a man with the message, without any apparent "supernatural" skills.

Sorry for the broken English.

Right. But when you say they don't give him much credit, it reminds me of Christians who believe that Unitarian Christian also don't give Jesus much credit because they reject his divinity and reject the Trinity doctrine.

The fact that Muhammad received and was entrusted with the Quran is all the credit he needs. Maybe the best way to appreciate the person is to follow the message he was given and sacrificed for. There is a tendency for Muslims to equate rejecting the Sunnah as rejecting Muhammad himself. Many people reject the Sunnah because they don't believe its Muhamedan and believe that it was invented to change the Islam of the Quran.

Remember in the end the Quranist persuasion is still in its infancy and many Quranist have not properly formulated their understanding yet. Its still evolving and taking shape. Also remember that Quranist come from different backgrounds and have different experiences.

Recluse

I don't reject the Sunnah (that doesn't conflict with the Qur'an).

Magnus

I don't reject the Sunnah (that doesn't conflict with the Qur'an).

Are you not afraid that you will allow the sunnah to unduly influence how you view the Quran, perpetuating mistakes of previous generations?

Then there's the problem with the "fuzzy edges" - there is no consensus which hadith are real or fake, strong or weak, important or un-important. Nobody can define what sunnah actually is, or where it begins and ends.
What I'm saying is, if you can't ever be certain where God's instructions to you as a believer begin or end, how can you ever expect to find any solidity in your practice of deen? To me it seems critical to strictly define what is to be followed, and the Quran-alone approach provides just that.

Bigmo

Are you not afraid that you will allow the sunnah to unduly influence how you view the Quran, perpetuating mistakes of previous generations?

Then there's the problem with the "fuzzy edges" - there is no consensus which hadith are real or fake, strong or weak, important or un-important. Nobody can define what sunnah actually is, or where it begins and ends.
What I'm saying is, if you can't ever be certain where God's instructions to you as a believer begin or end, how can you ever expect to find any solidity in your practice of deen? To me it seems critical to strictly define what is to be followed, and the Quran-alone approach provides just that.

Thats a good point. But that can also mean the level of knowledge since it takes knowledge of the Sunnah and the Quran to see what contradicts the Quran what does not. Not anyone has that ability.

Quranist are either one of those parties

they only accept the Quran as a religious source.
They accept the Quran and previous scriptures.
They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals but not hadiths.
They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals and hadiths that does not contradict the Quran.
Not necessarily among any but switch according to specific issues. Most Quranist tend to be in this category, at least the ones here are.

All have a common denominator, nothing should be accepted that contradicts explicit verses of the Quran.

However we should remember for unity we must also not make binding whats not explicitly mentioned in the Quran. This last part is the most challenging and this has created rifts between Quranist. A Quranist should never make binding what the Quran has not done so by an explict verse and should never under any circumstance accept any source that contradict an explict verse of the Quran.

You are right that hadiths can influence how a person understands the verses of the Quran. But many also are influenced by the previous scriptures or their personal experiences in life. The Quran is a scripture that came for all mankind and its natural that there will be a diversity of understanding and approaches. As long as the two conditions I mentioned are met, than and only then we can say we are a single community as God has ordered us to be in the Quran. Breaking one of them by making binding whats not explictly mentioned in the Quran or accepting something that contradicts an explicit verse of the Quran will create disunity and seperates us. The Quran allows differences (ikhtilaf) but does not allow seperation (iftiraq). Our differences should never make us seperate from one another and create sects. The only way that will happen is what I mentioned. The Quran says differences (ikhtilaf) will be settled by God in the hereafter but seperation (iftiraq) will make God not only abandon us but God promised to create enmity and hostility between us because we abandoned the scripture as the final criteria.

farida

Peace Farida.

I am not questioning your respect for Muhamed. I also believe in Muhamed and respect him.

If the prophet got other information and it is not in the Qoran, then we are forbidden from following it. It will be another source, hence we will be committing " idol worship" according to GOD.

Peace.

Peace good logic

I am pleased to know that you believe in the Prophet Muhamed(son of Abdullah) and respect him and do not think such a person never existed.

All Prophets had special status and close connection to God they understood deen best and implemented it for us that does not make it another source.
I hope we do not go around in circle as you keep going back to accusation that I follow the Prophet outside the great reading.
peace

good_logic

Peace Farida.

I do not wish to go around in circles either. All the prophets will have their reward with their Lord.

I will clarify my position , I do not follow any other source ,if it is not in the scripture.

I believe in all the true prophets that GOD mentions . I respect them all.

GOD commands me to seek HIM Alone

6164 Say?Shall I seek other than GOD as a Lord, when HE is the Lord of all things? No soul benefits except from its own works, and none bears the burden of another.Ultimately, you will return to your Lord,then HE informs you regarding all your disputes.?

With friendship and peace.

farida

However we should remember for unity we must also not make binding whats not explicitly mentioned in the Quran. This last part is the most challenging and this has created rifts between Quranist. A Quranist should never make binding what the Quran has not done so by an explict verse and should never under any circumstance accept any source that contradict an explict verse of the Quran.

You are right that hadiths can influence how a person understands the verses of the Quran. But many also are influenced by the previous scriptures or their personal experiences in life. The Quran is a scripture that came for all mankind and its natural that there will be a diversity of understanding and approaches. As long as the two conditions I mentioned are met, than and only then we can say we are a single community as God has ordered us to be in the Quran. Breaking one of them by making binding whats not explictly mentioned in the Quran or accepting something that contradicts an explicit verse of the Quran will create disunity and seperates us. The Quran allows differences (ikhtilaf) but does not allow seperation (iftiraq). Our differences should never make us seperate from one another and create sects. The only way that will happen is what I mentioned. The Quran says differences (ikhtilaf) will be settled by God in the hereafter but seperation (iftiraq) will make God not only abandon us but God promised to create enmity and hostility between us because we abandoned the scripture as the final criteria.

Salaam Bigmo

Very well explained handshake

Peace

Liha

Thats a good point. But that can also mean the level of knowledge since it takes knowledge of the Sunnah and the Quran to see what contradicts the Quran what does not. Not anyone has that ability.

Quranist are either one of those parties

they only accept the Quran as a religious source.
They accept the Quran and previous scriptures.
They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals but not hadiths.
They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals and hadiths that does not contradict the Quran.
Not necessarily among any but switch according to specific issues. Most Quranist tend to be in this category, at least the ones here are.

All have a common denominator, nothing should be accepted that contradicts explicit verses of the Quran.

However we should remember for unity we must also not make binding whats not explicitly mentioned in the Quran. This last part is the most challenging and this has created rifts between Quranist. A Quranist should never make binding what the Quran has not done so by an explict verse and should never under any circumstance accept any source that contradict an explict verse of the Quran.

You are right that hadiths can influence how a person understands the verses of the Quran. But many also are influenced by the previous scriptures or their personal experiences in life. The Quran is a scripture that came for all mankind and its natural that there will be a diversity of understanding and approaches. As long as the two conditions I mentioned are met, than and only then we can say we are a single community as God has ordered us to be in the Quran. Breaking one of them by making binding whats not explictly mentioned in the Quran or accepting something that contradicts an explicit verse of the Quran will create disunity and seperates us. The Quran allows differences (ikhtilaf) but does not allow seperation (iftiraq). Our differences should never make us seperate from one another and create sects. The only way that will happen is what I mentioned. The Quran says differences (ikhtilaf) will be settled by God in the hereafter but seperation (iftiraq) will make God not only abandon us but God promised to create enmity and hostility between us because we abandoned the scripture as the final criteria.

Salaam Bigmo,

A thoughtful and well written post. Perfectly expresses what I have often thought.

Well said bravo

Peace.

hawk99

Peace

Quranist are either one of those parties

They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals and hadiths that does not contradict the Quran.

We accept the Quran as the guidance that is the straight path.
no "echo" or hadiths are necessary, It does not matter if the hadith agree with the Quran or not.
God out of his mercy, gave us our path, we should not need the hadiths to verify the word of God.
I trust God will guide me to the blessed abode

KHALIFA GOD cites the example of a man who deals with disputing partners (Hadith), compared to a man who deals with only one consistent source (Quran). Are they the same? Praise be to GOD; most of them do not know.

If GOD supports you, none can defeat you. And if He abandons you, who else can support you? In GOD the believers shall trust.

The hadith to me just to much.... he said that he said that she said that he said that they saw......

There is only one sunnah
and that's the sunnah of God.

SHAKIR Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

006.116
Wa-in tutiAA akthara man fee al-ardi yudillooka AAan sabeeli Allahi in yattabiAAoona illa alththanna wa-in hum illa yakhrusoona
YUSUFALI Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture they do nothing but lie.
PICKTHAL If thou obeyedst most of those on earth they would mislead thee far from Allah's way. They follow naught but an opinion, and they do but guess.
SHAKIR And if you obey most of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow but conjecture and they only lie.
KHALIFA If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.

The next thing you know you got people sticking women in the ground and stoning them
or not eating or writing with the left hand or closing the closet to keep the jinn inside
or Ali should be followed or wait for the mahdi

corruption after corruption

Peace O0

Recluse

Are you not afraid that you will allow the sunnah to unduly influence how you view the Quran, perpetuating mistakes of previous generations?

No, because hadiths don't rule my life. I still follow the Qur'an; the sunnah just makes certain things easier, that's all. The way I pray for example. The prophet sometimes prayed 3 times a day by combining the usual 5 prayers into 3 prayers. At other times he prayed 5 times a day. Despite many contradictions in hadith, this fact is mentioned in all those relevant hadiths about salat.

I'm not going to bother with those contradicting details in hadiths claiming that he prayed only 3 times "because of bad weather" and such unimportant and conflicting details. I just use my logic and don't follow any hadith literally. In fact, I follow the Qur'an. We are bound to make mistakes and misinterpret things, this is unavoidable. Whether we are a Qur'an aloner or not. We are not perfect and God does not expect perfection from human beings, so no need to worry about that.

Recluse

Also I quoted Qoran that we are not to follow any other source . I am going to use Qoran to further clarify that we are only meant to follow "Qoran"

Peace,

But can you say that someone doesn't follow the Qur'an, if he prays like a sunni? Let me clarify, why should praying 2 rakahs fard in the morning (fajr) for example be considered "inconsistent" with the Qur'an?

Recluse

Thats a good point. But that can also mean the level of knowledge since it takes knowledge of the Sunnah and the Quran to see what contradicts the Quran what does not. Not anyone has that ability.

Quranist are either one of those parties

they only accept the Quran as a religious source.
They accept the Quran and previous scriptures.
They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals but not hadiths.
They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals and hadiths that does not contradict the Quran.
Not necessarily among any but switch according to specific issues. Most Quranist tend to be in this category, at least the ones here are.

All have a common denominator, nothing should be accepted that contradicts explicit verses of the Quran.

However we should remember for unity we must also not make binding whats not explicitly mentioned in the Quran. This last part is the most challenging and this has created rifts between Quranist. A Quranist should never make binding what the Quran has not done so by an explict verse and should never under any circumstance accept any source that contradict an explict verse of the Quran.

You are right that hadiths can influence how a person understands the verses of the Quran. But many also are influenced by the previous scriptures or their personal experiences in life. The Quran is a scripture that came for all mankind and its natural that there will be a diversity of understanding and approaches. As long as the two conditions I mentioned are met, than and only then we can say we are a single community as God has ordered us to be in the Quran. Breaking one of them by making binding whats not explictly mentioned in the Quran or accepting something that contradicts an explicit verse of the Quran will create disunity and seperates us. The Quran allows differences (ikhtilaf) but does not allow seperation (iftiraq). Our differences should never make us seperate from one another and create sects. The only way that will happen is what I mentioned. The Quran says differences (ikhtilaf) will be settled by God in the hereafter but seperation (iftiraq) will make God not only abandon us but God promised to create enmity and hostility between us because we abandoned the scripture as the final criteria.

Well said, I agree.

Magnus

We accept the Quran as the guidance that is the straight path.
no "echo" or hadiths are necessary, It does not matter if the hadith agree with the Quran or not.
God out of his mercy, gave us our path, we should not need the hadiths to verify the word of God.

Since you go on to quote Khalifa, would it be fair to assume that you believe in a "code 19" in some fashion? If so, I accuse you (in a way most kindly meant) of doing something very analogous to what you claim to abhor. If I replace the word "hadith" with some variation of "numerical code" those sentences of yours read

We accept the Quran as the guidance that is the straight path.
no "echo" or numerical codes are necessary, It does not matter if the numbers agree with the Quran or not.
God out of his mercy, gave us our path, we should not need the numerical code to verify the word of God.

We are not perfect and God does not expect perfection from human beings, so no need to worry about that.

This is at best a half-truth as I see it. It is true that we are not perfect, but I would argue that we would be foolish not to strive for perfection in our deen. God forgives whom He wills, and I will do my best to be among those who are forgiven, preferably with a comfortable "margin". Why settle for being among those on the right when we can strive to be among the closest? No righteous act will go unrewarded, so why not go for "perfect" and get as God allows us to get?

If you honestly believe that adherence to some variant of sunnah attributed to a long-dead prophet/messenger through unverifiable narrations will lead you to Truth rather than confusion, then go search there.

My reason for the previous question that you answered is my conviction that it is the believer's duty to approach the Quran without personal desires and doctrinal notions regarding the meaning of the Book (or part thereof), or the nature and attributes of the God Himself by extension. I think adherence to doctrine will make it hard/impossible to be humble enough about one's own knowledge of the Book (or any part thereof), and therefore not worthy of His guidance towards understanding the real meaning.

Bigmo

Peace,

But can you say that someone doesn't follow the Qur'an, if he prays like a sunni? Let me clarify, why should praying 2 rakahs fard in the morning (fajr) for example be considered "inconsistent" with the Qur'an?

Its not inconsistent with the Quran. In fact all Islamic rituals are OK for a Quranist. But it should not be made binding (obligatory). Muslims were following these rituals long before hadiths were compiled. There is nothing wrong in following these rituals. Rituals in the end are a means to an end not an end by themselves. Remember verse 2.177.

Recluse

Its not inconsistent with the Quran. In fact all Islamic rituals are OK for a Quranist. But it should not be made binding (obligatory). Muslims were following these rituals long before hadiths were compiled. There is nothing wrong in following these rituals. Rituals in the end are a means to an end not an end by themselves. Remember verse 2.177.

I agree 100%. I thought in the past you were fiercely opposed to sunnah as a whole. Maybe I'm confusing you with another member.

Peace

Bigmo

I agree 100%. I thought in the past you were fiercely opposed to sunnah as a whole. Maybe I'm confusing you with another member.

Peace

Its not about what you as an individual like to rely on since we all differ. But its accepting that others might not see it your way. Me personally I like to look at the previous sciptures and even look at Sunni or Judiac point of view in a subject. Many Quranist do not. Its all OK as long as its regarding supplimentary understanding or issues regarding how to pratice certain ritual. Many Quranist try to rely on archeology, others rely purely on logic and reason.

There is a good lecture of the different Quranist approaches regarding the Quran in youtube

http//www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL52F8A05A7E7E6F47&feature=plcp

good_logic

Peace Magnus.

Quote would it be fair to assume that you believe in a "code 19" in some fashion? If so, I accuse you (in a way most kindly meant) of doing something very analogous to what you claim to abhor. If I replace the word "hadith" with some variation of "numerical code" those sentences of yours read

Do I take it ( also very kindly meant) That you do not believe in " code 19"?

To discuss " code 19" here would be off topic, but I will be more than willing to open a new thread and discuss it using the Qoran.

Peace.

hawk99

Peace Magnus

Since you go on to quote Khalifa, would it be fair to assume that you believe in a "code 19" in some fashion? If so, I accuse you (in a way most kindly meant) of doing something very analogous to what you claim to abhor. If I replace the word "hadith" with some variation of "numerical code" those sentences of yours read

Here is your version of what I quotedWe accept the Quran as the guidance that is the straight path.
no "echo" or numerical codes are necessary, It does not matter if the numbers agree with the Quran or not.
God out of his mercy, gave us our path, we should not need the numerical code to verify the word of God.

I agree with your requote of my post when you say no "echo" (agreeable hadith) or numerical codes are necessary,

For me, the Khalifa translation is overall one of the best and the code 19 is interesting reading
but not necessary.

good logic open the thread!

Peace O0

Magnus

To discuss " code 19" here would be off topic, but I will be more than willing to open a new thread and discuss it using the Qoran.

I think the relevance of any proposed numerological approach to the Quran/Islam can be discussed under the headline "are we going the wrong way". It's not like this thread has been focused like a laser beam up until now or anything

But yeah, start a thread in an appropriate subforum and link to it in this thread, if you deem that more appropriate. God willing we may have a fruitful discussion, in whatever thread it takes place.