Are we going the wrong way ?
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Are you not afraid that you will allow the sunnah to unduly influence how you view the Quran, perpetuating mistakes of previous generations?
No, because hadiths don't rule my life. I still follow the Qur'an; the sunnah just makes certain things easier, that's all. The way I pray for example. The prophet sometimes prayed 3 times a day by combining the usual 5 prayers into 3 prayers. At other times he prayed 5 times a day. Despite many contradictions in hadith, this fact is mentioned in all those relevant hadiths about salat.
I'm not going to bother with those contradicting details in hadiths claiming that he prayed only 3 times "because of bad weather" and such unimportant and conflicting details. I just use my logic and don't follow any hadith literally. In fact, I follow the Qur'an. We are bound to make mistakes and misinterpret things, this is unavoidable. Whether we are a Qur'an aloner or not. We are not perfect and God does not expect perfection from human beings, so no need to worry about that.
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Also I quoted Qoran that we are not to follow any other source . I am going to use Qoran to further clarify that we are only meant to follow "Qoran"
Peace,
But can you say that someone doesn't follow the Qur'an, if he prays like a sunni? Let me clarify, why should praying 2 rakahs fard in the morning (fajr) for example be considered "inconsistent" with the Qur'an?
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Thats a good point. But that can also mean the level of knowledge since it takes knowledge of the Sunnah and the Quran to see what contradicts the Quran what does not. Not anyone has that ability.
Quranist are either one of those parties
- they only accept the Quran as a religious source.
- They accept the Quran and previous scriptures.
- They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals but not hadiths.
- They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals and hadiths that does not contradict the Quran.
- Not necessarily among any but switch according to specific issues. Most Quranist tend to be in this category, at least the ones here are.
All have a common denominator, nothing should be accepted that contradicts explicit verses of the Quran.
However we should remember for unity we must also not make binding whats not explicitly mentioned in the Quran. This last part is the most challenging and this has created rifts between Quranist. A Quranist should never make binding what the Quran has not done so by an explict verse and should never under any circumstance accept any source that contradict an explict verse of the Quran.
You are right that hadiths can influence how a person understands the verses of the Quran. But many also are influenced by the previous scriptures or their personal experiences in life. The Quran is a scripture that came for all mankind and its natural that there will be a diversity of understanding and approaches. As long as the two conditions I mentioned are met, than and only then we can say we are a single community as God has ordered us to be in the Quran. Breaking one of them by making binding whats not explictly mentioned in the Quran or accepting something that contradicts an explicit verse of the Quran will create disunity and seperates us. The Quran allows differences (ikhtilaf) but does not allow seperation (iftiraq). Our differences should never make us seperate from one another and create sects. The only way that will happen is what I mentioned. The Quran says differences (ikhtilaf) will be settled by God in the hereafter but seperation (iftiraq) will make God not only abandon us but God promised to create enmity and hostility between us because we abandoned the scripture as the final criteria.
Well said, I agree.
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We accept the Quran as the guidance that is the straight path.
no "echo" or hadiths are necessary, It does not matter if the hadith agree with the Quran or not.
God out of his mercy, gave us our path, we should not need the hadiths to verify the word of God.Since you go on to quote Khalifa, would it be fair to assume that you believe in a "code 19" in some fashion? If so, I accuse you (in a way most kindly meant) of doing something very analogous to what you claim to abhor. If I replace the word "hadith" with some variation of "numerical code" those sentences of yours read
We accept the Quran as the guidance that is the straight path.
no "echo" or numerical codes are necessary, It does not matter if the numbers agree with the Quran or not.
God out of his mercy, gave us our path, we should not need the numerical code to verify the word of God.We are not perfect and God does not expect perfection from human beings, so no need to worry about that.
This is at best a half-truth as I see it. It is true that we are not perfect, but I would argue that we would be foolish not to strive for perfection in our deen. God forgives whom He wills, and I will do my best to be among those who are forgiven, preferably with a comfortable "margin". Why settle for being among those on the right when we can strive to be among the closest? No righteous act will go unrewarded, so why not go for "perfect" and get as God allows us to get?
If you honestly believe that adherence to some variant of sunnah attributed to a long-dead prophet/messenger through unverifiable narrations will lead you to Truth rather than confusion, then go search there.
My reason for the previous question that you answered is my conviction that it is the believer's duty to approach the Quran without personal desires and doctrinal notions regarding the meaning of the Book (or part thereof), or the nature and attributes of the God Himself by extension. I think adherence to doctrine will make it hard/impossible to be humble enough about one's own knowledge of the Book (or any part thereof), and therefore not worthy of His guidance towards understanding the real meaning.
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Peace,
But can you say that someone doesn't follow the Qur'an, if he prays like a sunni? Let me clarify, why should praying 2 rakahs fard in the morning (fajr) for example be considered "inconsistent" with the Qur'an?
Its not inconsistent with the Quran. In fact all Islamic rituals are OK for a Quranist. But it should not be made binding (obligatory). Muslims were following these rituals long before hadiths were compiled. There is nothing wrong in following these rituals. Rituals in the end are a means to an end not an end by themselves. Remember verse 2.177.
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Its not inconsistent with the Quran. In fact all Islamic rituals are OK for a Quranist. But it should not be made binding (obligatory). Muslims were following these rituals long before hadiths were compiled. There is nothing wrong in following these rituals. Rituals in the end are a means to an end not an end by themselves. Remember verse 2.177.
I agree 100%. I thought in the past you were fiercely opposed to sunnah as a whole. Maybe I'm confusing you with another member.
Peace
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I agree 100%. I thought in the past you were fiercely opposed to sunnah as a whole. Maybe I'm confusing you with another member.
Peace
Its not about what you as an individual like to rely on since we all differ. But its accepting that others might not see it your way. Me personally I like to look at the previous sciptures and even look at Sunni or Judiac point of view in a subject. Many Quranist do not. Its all OK as long as its regarding supplimentary understanding or issues regarding how to pratice certain ritual. Many Quranist try to rely on archeology, others rely purely on logic and reason.
There is a good lecture of the different Quranist approaches regarding the Quran in youtube
http//www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL52F8A05A7E7E6F47&feature=plcp
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Peace Magnus.
Quote would it be fair to assume that you believe in a "code 19" in some fashion? If so, I accuse you (in a way most kindly meant) of doing something very analogous to what you claim to abhor. If I replace the word "hadith" with some variation of "numerical code" those sentences of yours read
Do I take it ( also very kindly meant) That you do not believe in " code 19"?
To discuss " code 19" here would be off topic, but I will be more than willing to open a new thread and discuss it using the Qoran.
Peace.
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Peace Magnus
Since you go on to quote Khalifa, would it be fair to assume that you believe in a "code 19" in some fashion? If so, I accuse you (in a way most kindly meant) of doing something very analogous to what you claim to abhor. If I replace the word "hadith" with some variation of "numerical code" those sentences of yours read
Here is your version of what I quotedWe accept the Quran as the guidance that is the straight path.
no "echo" or numerical codes are necessary, It does not matter if the numbers agree with the Quran or not.
God out of his mercy, gave us our path, we should not need the numerical code to verify the word of God.I agree with your requote of my post when you say no "echo" (agreeable hadith) or numerical codes are necessary,
For me, the Khalifa translation is overall one of the best and the code 19 is interesting reading
but not necessary.good logic open the thread!
Peace O0
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To discuss " code 19" here would be off topic, but I will be more than willing to open a new thread and discuss it using the Qoran.
I think the relevance of any proposed numerological approach to the Quran/Islam can be discussed under the headline "are we going the wrong way". It's not like this thread has been focused like a laser beam up until now or anything
But yeah, start a thread in an appropriate subforum and link to it in this thread, if you deem that more appropriate. God willing we may have a fruitful discussion, in whatever thread it takes place.
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Peace Magnus.
I opened a new thread " If " code 19" is false, What is the " proof " mentioned in Qoran?"
Peace.
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Salaam all,
Firstly, this has been a great post full of insight and interesting perspectives.
So my apologies if this is going slightly off track. Is sunnah not distinct from hadith?
I always thought of sunnah as more the ritualistic aspect of faith. The way we pray, fast, go for haj and offer zakat is based on the practices of the Prophet. These were in place during his lifetime and I assume have not changed hugely in the interim.
While the hadith is basically sayings attributed to the Prophet by third party sources that really came into full force 200 or so years after his death and often contradicts both the sunnah and Quran.
So why are they conflated? Is it to shore up and make the hadith more legitimate?
In fact I recall being taught 6 or 7 hadith tops which were in harmony with the Quran (in my long ago school days in the 80's!) the focus was always more on the Quran. Even in my family the trend was more about the Quran and its value as a book of guidance and grace there was not even one book of hadith in the house and nor were we following the 4 juristic schools--though we did identify as sunni muslims!
Though this seems to have changed in the past 15+ years with the establishment of Al-Huda and other institutes which promote a certain ideological approach to Islam i.e uber conservative interpretations funded by Gulf money and this interpretation has crossed over to the mainstream as being the norm.
Peace.
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Do I take it ( also very kindly meant) That you do not believe in " code 19"?
Please do, because I don't believe in it. I just cannot and would never accept Rashad Khalifa and Edip Yuksel's preposterous claim that two verses weren't actually part of the Quranic revelation. I consider this outright kufr. Please do try to prove this.
P.S. I just saw that you said you have already opened the thread.
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Yes it is easy to understand and its not God's fault. It is our fault because we as quranist are trying to put our own logic on Quran (God's logic). We are not trying to find the theory of God but we are trying to change it. A hadithst is trying to change the facts (Quran) by using hadiths explanation. A Quranist is trying to change the facts by changing Qurans words meaning according to their own logic. Einstein said " If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts ". The problem is that we are creating the theory before searching the facts (Quran). And our theory is based on our own logic. People the problem is WE ARE HAVING TROUBLE ACCEPTING THE REALITY or we just dont like the reality. As I said if Qurans forbid sex before marriage we should not commit it. If we already have done sex before marriage we should ask forgiveness from God. Are we doing it ? No - instead asking forgiveness we are trying to change the facts to make our self feel more comfortable. This is why God mention many times word "forgive" in Quran. In science first step is searching for the facts and the second is creating theory. In Sunni and Shia (hadithists) first step is searching for facts in hadiths, the second is correcting facts in Quran according to hadiths and the third is creating the theory( law in islam). In Quranism the first step is creating the theory and the second is searching for the facts that "support" the theory and the third if there are no facts we change them- we create them. So instead of God's theory (true law) we have our own theory.
Peace!
Very nice comments indeed truthsearcher!
To get the right guidance from the Qur?an, our eyes should be focused, the comprehension should be blank, that is, there should be no preconception. The right path is that no matter what our hearts and minds lean towards, we should never digress from the Qur?an; whatever the Qur?an says is haq (the truth) not what our leanings are; any one who goes to the Qur?an with preconceived ideas with the intention of getting confirmation of those ideas from the Qur?an, can never find the right guidance from the Qur?an.
Quran says about the prophet in 5317; "your sight has neither moved away from the truth nor has it crossed the limit." Prophet's eyes were fully focused on the divine revelation. The word zhagha means "moved away/ distracted". Also in 615 Alamma Zaaghu azaghallahu qulubahum meaning when moved away from God?s path, then the law of God or nature made them lean towards that very path (to which they had deviated). Many of the Quranists (with their eyes distracted) approach the Quran to get confirmation for those ideas their hearts and minds lean towards. They will indeed get "confirmation" for such ideas satisfactory for them because they are the people whose hearts are sealed and distracted by Allah (law of returns) ? ?Have you noticed the one who chooses as his god his own lowly drives? He goes astray despite having knowledge (and reason). (Consequently,) Allah seals his ears and heart, and covers his eyes closed. He can?t find guidance anywhere but with Allah? ? (4523).
Peace!
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Peace!
Very nice comments indeed truthsearcher!
To get the right guidance from the Qur?an, our eyes should be focused, the comprehension should be blank, that is, there should be no preconception. The right path is that no matter what our hearts and minds lean towards, we should never digress from the Qur?an; whatever the Qur?an says is haq (the truth) not what our leanings are; any one who goes to the Qur?an with preconceived ideas with the intention of getting confirmation of those ideas from the Qur?an, can never find the right guidance from the Qur?an.
Quran says about the prophet in 5317; "your sight has neither moved away from the truth nor has it crossed the limit." Prophet's eyes were fully focused on the divine revelation. The word zhagha means "moved away/ distracted". Also in 615 Alamma Zaaghu azaghallahu qulubahum meaning when moved away from God?s path, then the law of God or nature made them lean towards that very path (to which they had deviated). Many of the Quranists (with their eyes distracted) approach the Quran to get confirmation for those ideas their hearts and minds lean towards. They will indeed get "confirmation" for such ideas satisfactory for them because they are the people whose hearts are sealed and distracted by Allah (law of returns) ? ?Have you noticed the one who chooses as his god his own lowly drives? He goes astray despite having knowledge (and reason). (Consequently,) Allah seals his ears and heart, and covers his eyes closed. He can?t find guidance anywhere but with Allah? ? (4523).
Peace!
Salaam,
Highlights from me.
The red highlighted part above contradicts the blue highlighted part. I did not see the mentioning of Prophet in that aayat. Please remember what you said in red part
mmKhan
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Salaam,
Highlights from me.
The red highlighted part above contradicts the blue highlighted part. I did not see the mentioning of Prophet in that aayat. Please remember what you said in red part )
mmKhan
Can you elaboraten more what is exactly the contradiction?
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Salaam all,
Firstly, this has been a great post full of insight and interesting perspectives.
So my apologies if this is going slightly off track. Is sunnah not distinct from hadith?
I always thought of sunnah as more the ritualistic aspect of faith. The way we pray, fast, go for haj and offer zakat is based on the practices of the Prophet. These were in place during his lifetime and I assume have not changed hugely in the interim.
While the hadith is basically sayings attributed to the Prophet by third party sources that really came into full force 200 or so years after his death and often contradicts both the sunnah and Quran.
So why are they conflated? Is it to shore up and make the hadith more legitimate?
In fact I recall being taught 6 or 7 hadith tops which were in harmony with the Quran (in my long ago school days in the 80's!) the focus was always more on the Quran. Even in my family the trend was more about the Quran and its value as a book of guidance and grace there was not even one book of hadith in the house and nor were we following the 4 juristic schools--though we did identify as sunni muslims!
Though this seems to have changed in the past 15+ years with the establishment of Al-Huda and other institutes which promote a certain ideological approach to Islam i.e uber conservative interpretations funded by Gulf money and this interpretation has crossed over to the mainstream as being the norm.
Peace.
I have posted this before
Quranist are either one of those parties
- they only accept the Quran as a religious source.
- They accept the Quran and previous scriptures.
- They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals but not hadiths.
- They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals and hadiths that does not contradict the Quran.
- Not necessarily among any but switch according to specific issues. Most Quranist tend to be in this category, at least the ones here are.
This category seperates the rituals from the hadith. They reason as you did. However there is no evidence that these rituals are prophetic or obligatory or that there was no variance in how they were practiced. In fact Sunni sources says that the early Muslims in mecca prayed twice a day. But you were right that many of these rituals were practiced by Muslims before hadith. But I am not sure how earlier than hadith. These rituals could have been formulated by the Ummayids.
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Please do, because I don't believe in it. I just cannot and would never accept Rashad Khalifa and Edip Yuksel's preposterous claim that two verses weren't actually part of the Quranic revelation. I consider this outright kufr. Please do try to prove this.
P.S. I just saw that you said you have already opened the thread.
Recluse,
Same here. Although I am currently reading some of Edip's stuff, I skip over anything that delves deeply into 19.
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Recluse,
Same here. Although I am currently reading some of Edip's stuff, I skip over anything that delves deeply into 19.
I read Edip's article about Hell not being eternal, which was good.
In fact, even some companions of the prophet like Omar didn't believe Hell was eternal. There is a seperate book about this subject alone, it's called Hadil Erwah. Most sunnis try to downplay such facts. There is also a book about predestination and free will by Hasan al Basri where he completely destroys the traditional sunni argument. A scholar in Turkey has recently translated this into Turkish, it's fantastic.
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Can you elaboraten more what is exactly the contradiction?
Salaam,
Answer was already given in my post. Here the quote again
Salaam,
Highlights from me.
The red highlighted part above contradicts the blue highlighted part. I did not see the mentioning of Prophet in that aayat. Please remember what you said in red part
mmKhan
mmKhan