Are we going the wrong way ?
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Anyone has any explanation ?
I feel the same way, frustrated many times.
I try to remember "the simple solution is the most difficult to figure out"
Hopefully we will understand a little more than the previous generation and hopefully the next will understand more than us
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So I would not worry about what views others hold on Salat, Zakat, Hajj,... I would uphold the Authority of GOD Alone. Then I would keep on trusting on GOD to show me the truth. With patience and perseverance and after a hard trial GOD promises that we attain certainty.
So brother , trust on GOD to guide you to HIS truth, Keep studying the Qoran and keep doing what you are doing now for your salat,zakat,... Only change when you see clear evidence to do so and keep seeking help from your Lord.
Peace.
Seconded
Salaam -
Peace ignorant. quotient.
I understand you, sometimes it can be frustrating, when there are no agreement on big issues.
I also agree that there are some inappropriate comments/ topics. What is the fairest system of dealing with this issue?
Should we leave that decision to someone? Are there already rules in place? There is room for discussion?
I am satisfied ,the majority in the forum are honestly trying to find a way to their Lord through HIS scriptures.
Peace.
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Thank you @truthsearcher for starting this thread!
I am almost in the same situation as you are, specially because I came from Judeo -Xtian background and embraced Islam about 2 years ago, accepting it as taught by Mr. Rashad Khalifa, PhD.
Now I am at the verge to abandoning Islam altogether, mostly because of diverging opinions and versions, and I also think that the Truth is only one!You see, the problem is, that after Moses, NOBODY ever, never, spoke to God one to one!
NO-ONE ever heard the voice of God anymore!
Even the first one to substitute after Moses, Joshua, was in deep trouble with many issues etc. So, I think the first and the original message is Torah, and there is no contradiction in the commandments and instructions. Qur'an's main function is to confirm it and remind of it.
Maybe some people heard messages through intermediaries, like through Gabriel (Mary and Mohammad) or some prophets, but they were always alone, no witnesses to that! Unlike when all of Israel heard the voice of God, about million people present!. That was the only event in history, once and only. Never repeated. Now, messengers, like Gabriel etc, are just second layer, it is not the direct Word from God!
@Good logic pointed out well some things... but the problem is that even if "ask God for guidance", He is not going to speak to us, simply because there was never again anyone like Moses who heard the voice of God and stayed alive!
The "answer" we might "get", might be just our imagination, as with many other people, who then started more then 8000 cults and new religions (Islam included!) -
I know that if we search hadiths everything would be "clear" but in a bad-corrupted way. But in other side if we follow Quran alone we have many many different rules contradicting each other and at the same time we are breaking 5417. So where are we wrong ? Anyone has any explanation ?
You answered your own question almost. When you mentioned the Prophet Muhammed "praying 5 times a day" and then change to 3 when he found out he was wrong...just because hadith said he prayed 5 times a day doesn't mean he DID. For all we know, he only prayed 3 times a day. For me that is the reason I am here...the validity of the hadith. Just because long line of people hung out around the Prophet for several years of his life doesn't mean that they themselves could be trusted and that their memories are perfect...yet the majority of Islam follow the hadith as if it is a juicy steak on a string and they are hungry puppies.
I agree, though...it is confusing when everyone seems to have their own opinion on what the Qu'ran says. I got frustrated and had to take a break last week over that very thing. Just ask Allah (swt) to guide you in the right direction when you feel that way! Don't we say that in our salaat daily... "Idinhas siratal mustaqueem" (guide us in the straight way)? Just keep asking for understanding and push on.
With Peace,
Amina
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Peace truthsearcher.
I understand your frustration and I share your concern. but do not panic!
If GOD willed to make us one united community, HE could have done it. However this will eliminate the trial .(freedom of choice.)
Now the main message is " Total submission and loyalty to GOD Alone." ,this means that we have to trust in GOD Alone for our way of life.
The most important things in life are called commandments.These are absolutely clear in " the detailed book" let me quote
6151 Say? Come let me tell you what your Lord has prohibited for you( GOD s words, not mine or anybody else!)You shall not set up idols beside HIM,( Do not follow man made rules that claim are from GOD!) You shall honour your parents.You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty.We provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins obvious or hidden. ( Your creator has put the instinct in you to tell between right and wrong!) You shall not kill. GOD has made life sacred.Except in the course of justice.These are HIS commandments to you that you may understand.?
6152You shall not touch the orphan s money except in the most righteous manner, until they reach maturity.You shall give full weight and full measure when you trade, equitably.We do not burden any soul beyond its means.You shall be absolutely just when you bear witness, even against your relatives ( or yourself!) You shall fulfil your covenant with GOD. ( To uphold HIS authority. ALONE no idols!) These are HIS commandments to you, that you may take heed.?
6153This is My path, a straight one, do not follow any other paths, lest they divert you from HIS path.These are HIS commandments to you ,that you may be saved.?
Notice how GOD did not add anything else here deliberately. We are all individuals and we serve/follow/worship GOD in our diverse ways.
So I would not worry about what views others hold on Salat, Zakat, Hajj,... I would uphold the Authority of GOD Alone. Then I would keep on trusting on GOD to show me the truth. With patience and perseverance and after a hard trial GOD promises that we attain certainty.
So brother , trust on GOD to guide you to HIS truth, Keep studying the Qoran and keep doing what you are doing now for your salat,zakat,... Only change when you see clear evidence to do so and keep seeking help from your Lord.
Peace.
Good logic ! Remember that God says "easy to understand". There are 6346 verses in Quran and I don't think that God was talking only for his commandments. God was referring whole Quran with some exception (spirit, jinn, dreams etc). And the words "easy to understand" and "We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)" are key words in this topic. Not only in this topic but in our life. And every word, every verse has been sent for a reason. And every word is sent to define our "fate" in next life. Also every word is sent to define "our fate" in this life, our way of life. God didn't send Quran only to teach us that there is One God, One book. God sent it, because He wanted to see our life respectful (marriage, sex, pray etc.). And as I said we are having trouble to understand MAJOR RULES - those which are supposed to be "easy to understand", I guess. I don't know, but I think I have found an explanation. Not the prefect one but it explain many things
Anyone on here remember Albert Einstein ? He used to say "If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts". Of course this word has a deeper meaning but let analyze our work of understanding the Quran. The problem are WE. When we try to determine for example "sex before marriage" we don't search Qurans arguments. We search our arguments that are in our mind before starting looking for answers in Quran. So let suppose that we have done sex before marriage or we would like to do. So we start our theory and our theory is based in our mind because of our consciousness. At this point our consciousness say to us You have done the right thing - you are in the right way. And this is point when everything starts. We make our theory and when we find that our theory doesn't fit with facts (Quran=facts), we start "to change" the facts - that means we start to change meaning of arabic word or we start to check only for words that "fit the theory". This is what I think about all of this trouble
Maybe it doesn't explain everything but I think that it explain something...
Peace to all
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there is only one TRUTH - one God, life here is finite, after death is life hereafter, Day of Judgement where we have to stand account to how we lived this life, good deeds get rewarded and bad deeds will be punished. the goal is to attain piety.
the koran is a guide book to getting there - offering tools to achieving the goal. there are different ways of getting there.
having different ways of getting to end point doesn't alter the TRUTH. problem is we tend to obsess over form, details, numbers...losing sight of the TRUTH. we tend to complicate life, having our own ideas each claiming his way is better or right way or the only way.
one example is 'salat'. God tells us what the purpose of salat is. yet, you have people pre-occupied with form, numbers, timing, focusing on the details but missing the point. instead of focusing on the TRUTH - we tend to focus, argue, divide over things, and creating all this confusion.
God is not wrong. We are just stupid.
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Thank you @truthsearcher for starting this thread!
I am almost in the same situation as you are, specially because I came from Judeo -Xtian background and embraced Islam about 2 years ago, accepting it as taught by Mr. Rashad Khalifa, PhD.
Now I am at the verge to abandoning Islam altogether, mostly because of diverging opinions and versions, and I also think that the Truth is only one!You see, the problem is, that after Moses, NOBODY ever, never, spoke to God one to one!
NO-ONE ever heard the voice of God anymore!
Even the first one to substitute after Moses, Joshua, was in deep trouble with many issues etc. So, I think the first and the original message is Torah, and there is no contradiction in the commandments and instructions. Qur'an's main function is to confirm it and remind of it.
Maybe some people heard messages through intermediaries, like through Gabriel (Mary and Mohammad) or some prophets, but they were always alone, no witnesses to that! Unlike when all of Israel heard the voice of God, about million people present!. That was the only event in history, once and only. Never repeated. Now, messengers, like Gabriel etc, are just second layer, it is not the direct Word from God!
@Good logic pointed out well some things... but the problem is that even if "ask God for guidance", He is not going to speak to us, simply because there was never again anyone like Moses who heard the voice of God and stayed alive!
The "answer" we might "get", might be just our imagination, as with many other people, who then started more then 8000 cults and new religions (Islam included!)I can say Quran is 100% word of God. Everyone has owns argument for it but I'll tell you how I realize that Quran is word of God. If we look carefully we see that Quran talks about "expanding universe", "embryo like leech", "earth shape", "big bang" etc. All first mentioned in Quran 1400 years ago and discovered 100-200 years ago. How could Muhamed know all of these ? Of course He was inspired by God and that how I argument my word Quran is 100% word of God. So Islam is not one of "humans mind religion" because of Qurans arguments on science. Don't doubt about it !!!
I never said that Quran is not the word of God. I said that we are having trouble to understand "easy words of God" and of course is 100% our fault. Im just trying to figure out where is the hole in all of this. We know, this is all our fault but when did we start walking the wrong way? Who started it ?
Godsubmiter thanks for your answer. My advice to you is YOU SHOULD NEVER DOUBT ABOUT Quran. Quran came from Muhamed and Muhamed was inspire from God. Thats all
Peace
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Anyone on here remember Albert Einstein ? He used to say "If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts". Of course this word has a deeper meaning but let analyze our work of understanding the Quran. The problem are WE. When we try to determine for example "sex before marriage" we don't search Qurans arguments. We search our arguments that are in our mind before starting looking for answers in Quran. So let suppose that we have done sex before marriage or we would like to do. So we start our theory and our theory is based in our mind because of our consciousness. At this point our consciousness say to us You have done the right thing - you are in the right way. And this is point when everything starts. We make our theory and when we find that our theory doesn't fit with facts (Quran=facts), we start "to change" the facts - that means we start to change meaning of arabic word or we start to check only for words that "fit the theory". This is what I think about all of this trouble
Maybe it doesn't explain everything but I think that it explain something...
Peace to all
you are so right! totally agree!
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There really isn't a lot I feel I can add to what has already been said in this thread.
There is indeed only one Truth, though our individual paths towards it may vary, since most of us don't walk so straight, and since people are different, having had different lives thus far.
We humans have the choice of either doing our best in accepting Truth as it actually is, or we can choose to heed Satan's suggestions and believe in some fantasy instead.
Those who desire another path than the one dictated by the Lord create their own religions that match their desires. They add to the Book, or subtract from it, or twist and re-interpret, speculate and cause confusion. We are all responsible for what we follow in life. I'd rather follow Truth to the best of my own understanding (however limited and incomplete), rather than a comprehensive package deal thought up by someone else. I find this approach fruitful in gaining increased understanding over time. Islam is a pursuit that requires patience.
I think the Quran is quite easy to understand, provided the reader's heart is pure enough. Those with diseased hearts can't understand it. My own wild hunch and baseless speculation suggests to me that the Messiah might have been the only human ever without any such disease, so we shouldn't be ashamed to admit that we suffer from it to one degree or other. I agree with some that it would be better if those with diseased hearts would refrain from re-interpreting the Quran for the consumption of others, but to each his own I suppose. -
I can say Quran is 100% word of God. Everyone has owns argument for it but I'll tell you how I realize that Quran is word of God. If we look carefully we see that Quran talks about "expanding universe", "embryo like leech", "earth shape", "big bang" etc. All first mentioned in Quran 1400 years ago and discovered 100-200 years ago. How could Muhamed know all of these ? Of course He was inspired by God and that how I argument my word Quran is 100% word of God. So Islam is not one of "humans mind religion" because of Qurans arguments on science. Don't doubt about it !!!
I never said that Quran is not the word of God. I said that we are having trouble to understand "easy words of God" and of course is 100% our fault. Im just trying to figure out where is the hole in all of this. We know, this is all our fault but when did we start walking the wrong way? Who started it ?
Godsubmiter thanks for your answer. My advice to you is YOU SHOULD NEVER DOUBT ABOUT Quran. Quran came from Muhamed and Muhamed was inspire from God. Thats all
Peace
Thank you @truthsearcher for your answer.
I also believed that Qur'an might be from God , specially because of the number 19 code, and some vague scientific proofs.
But you see, the Rabbis also new all those things some thousand years before Muhammad and the Qur'an, and it is written in he oral law (Mishna, Gemara, etc), it's there for everybody to check. They knew the number of stars, and the exact decimal of days of the renewal of the Moon etc etc, way before telescopes and NASA. Maybe Muhammad got it from those books as well, and perhaps Rabbis got it from Egyptians, who knows? There are many things that are not easily exposed to general public.
If you have time, watch the three part videohttp//www.divineinformation.com/featured-videos/torah-and-science-2/
http//www.divineinformation.com/videos-english/torah-and-science-part-2/
http//www.divineinformation.com/videos-english/torah-and-science-part-3/You will be surprised and amazed if you have patience to watch it all.
God bless
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Salam all,
I'd rather be in the state of confusion to act on harming others than a state of certainty to do the same.
Wouldn't this state of mind tend to be inclined more to peace then the other state?
Why would we act on something that is harmful knowing that the other interpretation might end up avoiding harming others?I think historically, Quran is revealed to question those who believed so much on things that are harmful and hurtful in a subtle and gradual way. IMO rigidness will only break when too much pressure applied, but flexibility will absorb the pressure; and vagueness stirs up flexibility..
would you be rather in the side who lashes those who committed fornication because you believe fornication is the "intended" meaning of zina or would you prefer to tend to forgive in case that zina might not mean fornication?
i think hell is just around the corner if we want to interpret the quran in hellish way..
but heaven is also here to stay if we want to interpret the quran in a heavenly way..and to me the more interpretation the more color, and as long we don't hurt each other why don't we enjoy the rainbow?
wallahua3lam
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Please, do check this as well
http//www.thetruthshall.com/HolyKoranAndFacts.htm
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Thank you @truthsearcher for your answer.
I also believed that Qur'an might be from God , specially because of the number 19 code, and some vague scientific proofs.
But you see, the Rabbis also new all those things some thousand years before Muhammad and the Qur'an, and it is written in he oral law (Mishna, Gemara, etc), it's there for everybody to check. They knew the number of stars, and the exact decimal of days of the renewal of the Moon etc etc, way before telescopes and NASA. Maybe Muhammad got it from those books as well, and perhaps Rabbis got it from Egyptians, who knows? There are many things that are not easily exposed to general public.
If you have time, watch the three part videohttp//www.divineinformation.com/featured-videos/torah-and-science-2/
http//www.divineinformation.com/videos-english/torah-and-science-part-2/
http//www.divineinformation.com/videos-english/torah-and-science-part-3/You will be surprised and amazed if you have patience to watch it all.
God bless
Lets suppose that Muhamed take science information from Rabis and Rabis from Egyptians. And remember we are talking about 2000 years ago. I dont deny the fact about great scientist among Egyptians but 2000 years ago was a time when all science was based in hypothesis - that means egyptians werent 100% correct about science. There were many stupid hypothesis about science but also there were correct hypothesis. And everything that has to do with science already mentioned in Quran is 100% scientifically correct. Let suppose that he had luck when he chose to put verses about shape of earth. But what about the other verses which are scientifically correct. What about "non-existing verses" that probably could contain stupid science information, why he didnt put those in Quran, how did he know which hypothesis are correct and which are false. We can say that Muhamed had luck and everything in Quran was result of coincidence but do you know how do science call this kind of coincidence ? It has a name MIRACLE. And yes Quran is Miracle and Miracle come from God
Peace
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Please, do check this as well
http//www.thetruthshall.com/HolyKoranAndFacts.htm
If you have anything unclear about Quran and if you think that there are many contradict verses post here
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If you have anything unclear about Quran and if you think that there are many contradict verses post here
It is all written already there, that's why I sent you the link
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It is all written already there, that's why I sent you the link )
I'm sorry but I don't have much time to read all of this. So write here "contradict verses" one by one and we'll discuss
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peace truthsearcher, all,
Your questions/thinking is quite a common reaction, i.e. it is thought about and often asked by others.
Since I have been a forum member for almost 10 years and have been studying Quran for roughly the same time, I will share my thoughts.
Firstly, please bear in mind verse 37. This seems to be an under appreciated verse. It's message is very powerful. Please ponder upon it.
Secondly, please do not compare like with unlike. For example, you list quite a number of different views, but be careful you do not confuse the wheat with the chaff. If you ask yourself how many of those views actually have a detailed article behind them? You will suddenly find the number of variant views reducing dramatically.
Now, once the list of variance is reduced, ponder upon what the differences would be in a practical manner. Usually, the variance, whilst still there, is again reduced.And lastly, from my studies of Quran, it does seem it placed an emphasis on unity on the core beliefs/laws. If a society has these, how relevant are the rest? If your next door neighbour is law-abiding and righteous but believes one must do cartwheels and handstands in their timed salat - how much does that matter? What if they are law-abiding and righteous but believe their cat is their God - how much does that matter?
Please ponder.
Thanks.
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peace truthsearcher, all,
Your questions/thinking is quite a common reaction, i.e. it is thought about and often asked by others.
Since I have been a forum member for almost 10 years and have been studying Quran for roughly the same time, I will share my thoughts.
Firstly, please bear in mind verse 37. This seems to be an under appreciated verse. It's message is very powerful. Please ponder upon it.
Secondly, please do not compare like with unlike. For example, you list quite a number of different views, but be careful you do not confuse the wheat with the chaff. If you ask yourself how many of those views actually have a detailed article behind them? You will suddenly find the number of variant views reducing dramatically.
Now, once the list of variance is reduced, ponder upon what the differences would be in a practical manner. Usually, the variance, whilst still there, is again reduced.And lastly, from my studies of Quran, it does seem it placed an emphasis on unity on the core beliefs/laws. If a society has these, how relevant are the rest? If your next door neighbour is law-abiding and righteous but believes one must do cartwheels and handstands in their timed salat - how much does that matter? What if they are law-abiding and righteous but believe their cat is their God - how much does that matter?
Please ponder.
Thanks.
Wakas,
I liked the reference that you gave in 37 and it brought to mind something else, if I may add
2255
God, there is no god except He, the Living, the Sustainer. No
slumber or sleep overtakes Him; to Him belongs all that is in
the heavens and the earth. Who will intercede with Him except
with His permission? He knows their present and their future,
and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He
wishes. His Throne encompasses all of the heavens and the earth
and it is easy for Him to preserve them. He is the Most High, the
GreatOnly when Allah (swt) is ready is anything revealed to us (we are allowed to understand).
And then as I re-read 37, it really hit home for me.
He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which
there are firm revelations; they are the essence of the Book;
and others which are similar. As for those who have a disease in
their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to
confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know
its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in
knowledge; they say ?We believe in it, all is from our Lord.? And
none will remember except those who possess intelligence.All this nit picking over how often should we pray, should we bow three times or four, how many days are we really supposed to fast? I can't speak for anyone else, but reading that ayat (did I use the right term there?) made me realize just how shallow my worship has become.
You are right...it is a very powerful verse.
With Peace,
Amina
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Wakas,
I liked the reference that you gave in 37 and it brought to mind something else, if I may add
2255
God, there is no god except He, the Living, the Sustainer. No
slumber or sleep overtakes Him; to Him belongs all that is in
the heavens and the earth. Who will intercede with Him except
with His permission? He knows their present and their future,
and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He
wishes. His Throne encompasses all of the heavens and the earth
and it is easy for Him to preserve them. He is the Most High, the
GreatOnly when Allah (swt) is ready is anything revealed to us (we are allowed to understand).
And then as I re-read 37, it really hit home for me.
He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which
there are firm revelations; they are the essence of the Book;
and others which are similar. As for those who have a disease in
their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to
confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know
its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in
knowledge; they say ?We believe in it, all is from our Lord.? And
none will remember except those who possess intelligence.All this nit picking over how often should we pray, should we bow three times or four, how many days are we really supposed to fast? I can't speak for anyone else, but reading that ayat (did I use the right term there?) made me realize just how shallow my worship has become.
You are right...it is a very powerful verse.
With Peace,
Amina
Yes but historically this is how Muhammad and his followers prayed. The Sunnis are traditionalists. They base everything off tradition and they want Islam to remain the same today as it was hundreds of years ago.
The prophet himself prayed like this and so did his followers. This is not a matter of revelation or divine truth this is historical fact.
So if the prophet himself prayed like this, how can you call it shallow worship?
Are we all so arrogant to believe that we know the Qur'an better than the people it was first revealed to and who followed the prophet himself?
That somehow we have unlocked some truth that others have ignored? The entire exercise is folly because when it comes to religion, truth is always subjective. If every group of Muslims that claimed another group of Muslims weren't "real Muslims" or weren't "true Muslims" then not a single Muslim would exist on this planet.
You can't all be right but you can all be wrong. To cling to a religious belief is to accept the idea that your interpretation of reality and your idea of truth is correct and all others are wrong or mistaken.
I've come to the point in studying scripture and history that no one religion or sect is right and not a single scripture is divine.
