Are we going the wrong way ?
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Peace Magnus.
I also hapen to agree with Bigmo. Please read his post. Rituals are not the most important things in " Deen". Submission to the Creator is.
Peace.
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You are trying to folow the Quran the same way you were following Sunni Islam or Shia Islam. You seem to think that rituals are a goal of their own when in fact its a means to an end. This is whay Paul in the Gospel struggled with the Law since he came from a Pharisaic background and assumed that everything had to be ritualistic and legalistic. Many Quranist who cme from Islamic or Judaic background find themselves looking for some form of ritualism which they assume is how religions should be understood. There is no evidence from the Quran that such should be the case. Rituals are a means to an end. A person can jog, swim, play tennis or do something else to excercise. He can do it everyday or every other day. He can spend half an hour or tow hours when he trains. He can even do a combination of excercising. The goal is to be fit. The same with rituals in the Quran. There is no right way or wrong way as how Muslims understand it.
It's not my point ! I'm not saying we should follow hadiths because God says clearly that The Quran is the only book we must follow. But when we follow Quran Alone we are having problems for understanding "easy understanding" words. I'm just trying to find where is the defect or the hole in our situation. Maybe is influence of hadiths for more than 1000 years and arabic language is corrupted but in this case we are breaking 159 - it does not make sense to me. If arabic language is not corrupted how could Muhamed understand Quran without hadiths ?? He was in the same situation like us today (salat 5 times, 4 times ,3 times). I think Muhamed had an answer for everything but I don't know how ??
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I also hapen to agree with Bigmo. Please read his post. Rituals are not the most important things in " Deen". Submission to the Creator is.
I have read Bigmo's post, but I'm not necessarily talking about rituals though. As you yourself pointed out, submission to the Creator is central. Anyone who falsely make things up about the Lord, or perpetuates lies others have made up about Him(*), is surely in error and not in submission to the expressed will of Allah at all, despite all claims to the contrary.
(* or His prescribed deen, or His books, prophets, messengers etc...)
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Peace Magnus.
I also hapen to agree with Bigmo. Please read his post. Rituals are not the most important things in " Deen". Submission to the Creator is.
Peace.
Peace Good logic
Maybe rituals are not the most important things "in deen" but ritual are IMPORTANT. I know that the most important things are God alone, Quran alone, not killing etc, but come on... Rituals, marriage are our elements of good/bad life. And God sent Quran to make a good life for us. How can be our life good if we don't understand Quran words about elements of a good life ? Do you understand that we are missing the point ? According to Quran there is only one truth - only one way of good life. Yes we can commit pornography or fornication and we can say we are happy and we have a good life. But for God this is not good life. Every possible path is wrong except the right path and the right path is written in Quran. Thats all
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Peace Good logic
Maybe rituals are not the most important things "in deen" but ritual are IMPORTANT. I know that the most important things are God alone, Quran alone, not killing etc, but come on... Rituals, marriage are our elements of good/bad life. And God sent Quran to make a good life for us. How can be our life good if we don't understand Quran words about elements of a good life ? Do you understand that we are missing the point ? According to Quran there is only one truth - only one way of good life. Yes we can commit pornography or fornication and we can say we are happy and we have a good life. But for God this is not good life. Every possible path is wrong except the right path and the right path is written in Quran. Thats all
Salaam,
You have a point. There ARE rituals that we perform...wudhu being the one that stands out most in my mind. We clean before every prayer. So we can't say that they ALL are unimportant.
Amina
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I have read Bigmo's post, but I'm not necessarily talking about rituals though. As you yourself pointed out, submission to the Creator is central. Anyone who falsely make things up about the Lord, or perpetuates lies others have made up about Him(*), is surely in error and not in submission to the expressed will of Allah at all, despite all claims to the contrary.
(* or His prescribed deen, or His books, prophets, messengers etc...)
Peace Magnus
I totally agree with you
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Salaam,
You have a point. There ARE rituals that we perform...wudhu being the one that stands out most in my mind. We clean before every prayer. So we can't say that they ALL are unimportant.
Amina
Peace scaredmuslimah
If you check Good logic point you'll figure out that in Quran are unimportant things. This is wrong. Every word is important and every word which describe rituals like salat, marriage etc is supposed to be easy to understand.
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Peace scaredmuslimah
If you check Good logic point you'll figure out that in Quran are unimportant things. This is wrong. Every word is important and every word which describe rituals like salat, marriage etc is supposed to be easy to understand.
I see now. Hmmm.... hmm
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Every word is important and every word which describe rituals like salat, marriage etc is supposed to be easy to understand.
I believe my failings in understanding the Quran stems from my diseased heart, me not being pure enough, rather than the Book somehow being at fault. Have you ever considered this possibility for yourself?
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I believe my failings in understanding the Quran stems from my diseased heart, me not being pure enough, rather than the Book somehow being at fault. Have you ever considered this possibility for yourself?
Read my answer http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604192.10 reply nr 10. Is that your point ?
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Peace all
Can I just clear the misunderstanding.
I said there are more important things than rituals. I did not say rituals are unimportant.
Thank you.
Peace. -
Read my answer http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604192.10 reply nr 10. Is that your point ?
I think so. Now, equipped with the insight of our own failings and inability to understand the Book fully, the only obviously fruitful course open to those of us who seek Truth is that of personal purification/submission. Those who fail to see this will speculate instead.
(I have from personal experience come to the conclusion that I cannot force any understanding I am not ready for, and that my Maker guides me towards the Truth (Him!) only when I deserve it, completely as He wills. I think this is true for everybody, and I think Scripture confirms this.
Patience with what we do not yet understand is essential to people like us. Patience combined with humility brings increased clarity eventually, provided we keep making the effort to purify ourselves.) -
I think so. Now, equipped with the insight of our own failings and inability to understand the Book fully, the only obviously fruitful course open to those of us who seek Truth is that of personal purification/submission. Those who fail to see this will speculate instead.
(I have from personal experience come to the conclusion that I cannot force any understanding I am not ready for, and that my Maker guides me towards the Truth (Him!) only when I deserve it, completely as He wills. I think this is true for everybody, and I think Scripture confirms this.
Patience with what we do not yet understand is essential to people like us. Patience combined with humility brings increased clarity eventually, provided we keep making the effort to purify ourselves.)But that is valid for any difficult book, for example dense Schopenhauer's work, one understands it accordingly to his knowledge and preparation...
Spiritual guidance, or Book of Instructions for living according to God's Law, on the other hand, should be clear and easy to understand and follow! If it is from God... like the Ten Commandments. -
Dear truthsearcher,
You have put exactly what i am going through.
The problem is due to the posts by the users, everyone posts of what he/she thinks of certain words in Quran and their own interpretation. There are no moderators who can verify the content before it is posted. So you see all these confused souls coming here and posting whatever they like.
I have seen some very weird post being posted here. I hope moderators due bring out some kind of regulations for posting.
Regards
Are you also among the confused souls ? confused
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I really like how you corrected my horrible post there )
I did correct nothing ) I just put bold on your best words which explained our situation
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But that is valid for any difficult book, for example dense Schopenhauer's work, one understands it accordingly to his knowledge and preparation...
Spiritual guidance, or Book of Instructions for living according to God's Law, on the other hand, should be clear and easy to understand and follow! If it is from God... like the Ten Commandments.Yes it is easy to understand and its not God's fault. It is our fault because we as quranist are trying to put our own logic on Quran (God's logic). We are not trying to find the theory of God but we are trying to change it. A hadithst is trying to change the facts (Quran) by using hadiths explanation. A Quranist is trying to change the facts by changing Qurans words meaning according to their own logic. Einstein said " If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts ". The problem is that we are creating the theory before searching the facts (Quran). And our theory is based on our own logic. People the problem is WE ARE HAVING TROUBLE ACCEPTING THE REALITY or we just dont like the reality. As I said if Qurans forbid sex before marriage we should not commit it. If we already have done sex before marriage we should ask forgiveness from God. Are we doing it ? No - instead asking forgiveness we are trying to change the facts to make our self feel more comfortable. This is why God mention many times word "forgive" in Quran. In science first step is searching for the facts and the second is creating theory. In Sunni and Shia (hadithists) first step is searching for facts in hadiths, the second is correcting facts in Quran according to hadiths and the third is creating the theory( law in islam). In Quranism the first step is creating the theory and the second is searching for the facts that "support" the theory and the third if there are no facts we change them- we create them. So instead of God's theory (true law) we have our own theory.
You mentioned why ten commandments are clear and easy to understand ? This is because everyone would agree not to kill children but not everyone would agree that sex before marriage is forbidden.
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Yes it is easy to understand and its not God's fault. It is our fault because we as quranist are trying to put our own logic on Quran (God's logic). We are not trying to find the theory of God but we are trying to change it. A hadithst is trying to change the facts (Quran) by using hadiths explanation. A Quranist is trying to change the facts by changing Qurans words meaning according to their own logic. Einstein said " If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts ". The problem is that we are creating the theory before searching the facts (Quran). And our theory is based on our own logic. People the problem is WE ARE HAVING TROUBLE ACCEPTING THE REALITY or we just dont like the reality. As I said if Qurans forbid sex before marriage we should not commit it. If we already have done sex before marriage we should ask forgiveness from God. Are we doing it ? No - instead asking forgiveness we are trying to change the facts to make our self feel more comfortable. This is why God mention many times word "forgive" in Quran. In science first step is searching for the facts and the second is creating theory. In Sunni and Shia (hadithists) first step is searching for facts in hadiths, the second is correcting facts in Quran according to hadiths and the third is creating the theory( law in islam). In Quranism the first step is creating the theory and the second is searching for the facts that "support" the theory and the third if there are no facts we change them- we create them. So instead of God's theory (true law) we have our own theory.
You mentioned why ten commandments are clear and easy to understand ? This is because everyone would agree not to kill children but not everyone would agree that sex before marriage is forbidden.
Hey guys I read this comment on an article responding to a blog on Christianity but I believe this holds VERY true for Islam as well. Just replace the word Christianity with Islam, and replace all references to the New Testament (NT) with the Qur'an and I think it gets to the core of the problems with scripture based religions and how humans interpret them.
"Point is, all versions in the spectrum of Christianity, from the "lone-ranger" version of bBall 1989 to the hyper-structured organizations these men lament, are ultimately no more than someone's or someones' interpretation of the same source of information. Can any one of them conclusively prove that their interpretation is correct and the others not? The fact that such conflicting interpretations are able to exist simultaneously demonstrates that no one can prove his is the "correct" or at least "more-nearly-correct". If that was possible to prove, then incorrect interpretations would have no ability to exist for very long, at least not without their misinterpretations of the NT text being obvious even to outside observers. The problem is that the source of Christians' information about "Jesus" and Christianity, the text called "the Scriptures" they're using, is ambiguous and incomplete concerning foundational and major issues and questions. That incompleteness and ambiguity makes it impossible for there not to be interpretative divisiveness.
The inescapable interpretative ambiguity of the "source", which not only allows but actually causes the conflicts and contentions among the varied sincere Christian groups and believers, should ring warning alarms about the text's authority and credibility, to any reasoning mind."
The point is that the book is so vague and open to interpretation that NOBODY can ever be right. If the book was clear and concise in its verses then there would never be different sects popping up. If the book was clear we would all as human beings, agree on what each verse said and there would be no misinterpretations.
It is the ambiguity of the book that allows for all this arguing and contention.
Why would a divine author create a book so vague and open to misinterpretation? Why not a clear and concise book we can all agree on?
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Peace truthsearcher
You have to Know for certain where you stand in relationship to our way of life.
don't pay attention to all the voices (typings) on so-called free-minds, many are
influenced by other than God, mainly shaytayn and their egos.we all know better than to have sex outside of marriage, it is bad for society
just look at the mess it's gotten America in.
we know to pray five times a day
we know the difference between meat and the other parts of the animalseek refuge in God from satan the cursed
Did you think you would come to this forum and have your say without the devil having his say?
as a matter of fact this forum is the devils chance to confront us and attempt to pull the weak
in faith off the path that leads to paradise. so be aware of them!
They pretend to love you and to be "seekers of the truth" but in reality they hate you! and they are liars,
writing pages and pages of their silly arguments whenWe made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?
God has chosen some members of this forum for guidance
and others he has chosen for the fire.
consequently the jealousy and anger of the kufr provokes them to write posts about
vague references, aliens, double talk and nonsenseThey repel from the way of GOD and seek to make it crooked, and they are disbelievers
in the Hereafter.
Remember shaytayn 's (the jinn) oath
He said, "Since You have willed that I go astray,* I will skulk for them on Your straight path."I will come to them from before them, and from behind them, and from their right, and from their left, and You will find that most of them are unappreciative."
He said, "Get out therefrom, despised and defeated. Those among them who follow you, I will fill Hell with you all.
The Quran is clear
He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses?which constitute the essence of the scripture?as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this?all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.
"As for My servants, you have no power over them." Your Lord suffices as an advocate.
We have thus revealed clear revelations herein, then GOD guides whoever wills (to be guided).
Who are more evil than those who fabricate lies about GOD? They will be presented before their Lord, and the witnesses will say, "These are the ones who lied about their Lord. GOD's condemnation has befallen the transgressors."You can recognize satan by what he says
If we will, we can expose them for you, so that you can recognize them just by looking at them. However, you can recognize them by the way they talk(type). GOD is fully aware of all your works.
Peace O0
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Salaam,
Does it matter what others believe, practise or hold true? Why do we expend so much energy wanting validation?
The message is loud and clear on the main points
--Worship, trust and believe in one God
--Our Creator is our friend for life in all the ups and downs that ensue.
--Strive to be good and strive to do good.
The Quran constantly talks about compassion, grace, mercy and kindness obviously these are qualities that God would like us to incorporate into our lives and not just to sound lofty and high minded on paper. These are qualities that empower us as humans and make society a nicer place too.
As for the rest they are details and just about everyone will have an opinion--but thats what it is conjecture. So its pointless fretting over what others do and being irritated by random peoples beliefs and opinions. What counts is your faith, belief and trust and if you have conviction then thats a start and the rest God willing will fall into place.
Peace.