Ramadan and different approaches to it.
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Salaam,
This year the fasts have been very long (if you live in the Northern hemisphere!) and while some people are able to fast till 9pm or so but for others it is simply not physically possible due to various factors.
I know members of my own extended family have undertaken some unusual steps
Two of my cousins have decided to fast from 6am to 6pm. They both work and find it very hard to eat at 9pm and then be in bed an hour or so later with a uncomfortably full stomach.
Another aunt has also used this fixed time approach as she has health issues but would like to fast as she wants to express her devotion and appreciation to God but cannot manage the 15 hours+ fasts.
Then more conventionally some elderly relatives who are too frail and old have taken the option of donating money in lieu of fasting.
I think the modified times approach while unconventional has some merit.
After all the idea is to devote it for the sake of God and master some self-control and not extreme hardship.
If we work on the assumption that a fast is supposed to be from sunrise to sunset--keeping in mind that this would originally have been done with timings from Arabia (which would not be as onerous as Europe or North America). Given the variations in sunrise and sunset across the globe, would it not make sense to fast a certain amount of hours--say not more than 10 to 12 at the most?
Besides spending the day weak, cranky and fantasising about the evening meal is not exactly spiritually enlightening.
I would be interested in people's perspectives.
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Salaam,
I too live in the northern hemisphere, and I agree. For the first time since I converted to Islam, I have been cranky, tired and much more dehydrated than usual (the temperature has been consistently over 100 degrees here for several weeks).
This year I have been on an "on-off" schedule of sorts I will fast two or three days and then have to take a day or so of rest to replenish my fluids. It has been a bit frustrating, but I just remind myself that Allah (swt) knows best.
Amina
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Salaam Amina,
I live in the UK and the weather has been mild so its not been as tough as yours.
I used to take your approach some years back when I found it simply impossible to fast daily in the scorching heat and long days. I think the aim is to do the best we can and the rest is in the hands of our Creator.
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Salaam Amina,
I live in the UK and the weather has been mild so its not been as tough as yours.
I used to take your approach some years back when I found it simply impossible to fast daily in the scorching heat and long days. I think the aim is to do the best we can and the rest is in the hands of our Creator.
Liha,
And I agree. If we believe that He is "All-Knowing," then surely He knows exactly what we are going through and our intentions. In years past, I had only myself to think about. Now that I am responsible for a child, I have to make sure that I am healthy enough to meet her needs also. God willing, I will make up my missed fasts later on.
With Peace,
Amina
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One question that made my sunni friend say hmm was "if you are praying towards Mecca, why are you not following the time of Mecca?" It is easy for scholars to sit and tell people what to do when they themselves are exempted. I bet a million bucks the rules would be different if Mecca was located in northern Europe.
My friend was bent on following the sunrise-sunset.......Not saying it is impossible to fast 18 hours but it is probably not what Allah intended.
Here in Sweden I feel I have no choice (if I want to function as a normal human) but to follow the 12 hour rule.
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A few years ago I was visiting Reykjavik and St Petersburg during the summer and it was light and bright outside at 11pm! There was a mosque we visited in St Petersburg and for some reason I thought about them today. I hope that they have modified their Ramadan times and are not trying to be too hardcore!
I agree Emil, that if Islam had originated in Europe some things would be approached very differently. Talking of following Mecca times I have some friends who actually are following Mecca times for Ramadan in London so their fast ends at a more reasonable 6pm or so.
Its like morning prayers--I have utmost admiration for those who wake up on time to offer it as I just cannot seem to manage it. Again its the same Mecca times at work! These timings were for an agrarian Arabian society where people slept early and woke early unlike the current era and so were completely in keeping with their lifestyles.
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A few years ago I was visiting Reykjavik and St Petersburg during the summer and it was light and bright outside at 11pm! There was a mosque we visited in St Petersburg and for some reason I thought about them today. I hope that they have modified their Ramadan times and are not trying to be too hardcore!
I agree Emil, that if Islam had originated in Europe some things would be approached very differently. Talking of following Mecca times I have some friends who actually are following Mecca times for Ramadan in London so their fast ends at a more reasonable 6pm or so.
Its like morning prayers--I have utmost admiration for those who wake up on time to offer it as I just cannot seem to manage it. Again its the same Mecca times at work! These timings were for an agrarian Arabian society where people slept early and woke early unlike the current era and so were completely in keeping with their lifestyles.
You mean Reykjavik...as in Iceland? How cool is that??? And I never thought about that being a factor...how our lifestyles have changed over the thousands of years. Some things it seems applicable, but I never thought about our daily routine that way.
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You mean Reykjavik...as in Iceland? How cool is that??? And I never thought about that being a factor...how our lifestyles have changed over the thousands of years. Some things it seems applicable, but I never thought about our daily routine that way.
Iceland is a pretty cool place to visit in summer, very beautiful & awe inspiring landscape but would be a harsh and tough environment in winter. When I think of life in the pre-modern era and the human capacity to live in the most difficult of environments it never fails to inspire and amaze me.
Yes, I think we forget how far we have come, how much we have learned and how little we still know (and how little human nature changes!).
Many things are applicable and the basic message of the faith does not change and is constant across the ages. I personally feel it is worth keeping in mind when reading the Quran that certain things pertain to the audience of the time and are specific to a historical event or happening.
We can definitely draw lessons from them, or discern that is not the way to behave! Other things we can think about applying to our lives in a more pertinent way so that God, faith, rituals and spiritual development fit seamlessly with life bringing about positive changes within us and those around us, rather than the following the approach the more burdensome it is and the more martyr like we feel (repressing our resentment!) the more brownie points we score with God.
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jewish fasting makes much more sense to me than the muslim fasting that i have adopted their practice of fasting. as does jewish salat but that's a different thread.
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Peace All,
This is an interesting discussion. However, we should remember that the Koran tells us to read. There is no reason for any Muslim to be deciding for themselves how many hours to do. The Koran tells us to fast for 3 days for the length of the full moon following the hottest sun. Surely we should be following the Koran rather than individual conjecture. Remember in the verses dealing with the Fast God reminds us He doesn't want to make it difficult for us. He also keeps reminding us that we are to fast like those before us had to.
This is the whole point of Freeminds, to study the Koran objectively and using our intelligence based on the evidence base, the Koran. It is not simply about doing what we feel comfortable with then saying, God knows best. He does know best. That is why He gave us the Koran to guide us.
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Peace All,
This is an interesting discussion. However, we should remember that the Koran tells us to read. There is no reason for any Muslim to be deciding for themselves how many hours to do. The Koran tells us to fast for 3 days for the length of the full moon following the hottest sun. Surely we should be following the Koran rather than individual conjecture. Remember in the verses dealing with the Fast God reminds us He doesn't want to make it difficult for us. He also keeps reminding us that we are to fast like those before us had to.
This is the whole point of Freeminds, to study the Koran objectively and using our intelligence based on the evidence base, the Koran. It is not simply about doing what we feel comfortable with then saying, God knows best. He does know best. That is why He gave us the Koran to guide us.
Salaam Dawn,
I completely agree with you that we must study the Quran objectively and use our intelligence. However, the trouble is we all can read something completely different in the same passage. Does that mean both are wrong, both correct or one is right and the other wrong?
I think you and I can definitely agree that fasting is prescribed and that God describes it as being something that is good for us. Considering on Free Minds alone there are a dozen different approaches to Ramadan suggests that its not quite so clear cut. The main source of contention seems to be the length is it 3 days or 30? again this is due to differing understandings of a lunar cycle as per the Quran.
While some maintain that fasting is not required at all & others follow all sorts of methods and means to get through Ramadan some of which have been mentioned in posts above.
Its the same issue with so many 'hot' topics in Islam hijab (I personally do not believe an Islamic dress code was given--just a recommendation for modesty according to my reading and understanding but others would argue vociferously otherwise), polygamy (again I think the Quranic ideal is monogamy and polygamy is discouraged but others maintain polygamy is allowed and a right!)
There are some on this site who in the past have argued that because there is no obvious ban--alcohol is permissible despite the fact that the Quran quite clearly calls it
"O you who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed." (5. Al Ma' idah 90).
Describing something as Satan's handiwork while not a ban is not exactly a ringing endorsement either!
Technically, slavery is not given an outright ban in the Quran but yet the inference is clear that freeing a slave from servitude is a very good act and the fact that to expiate sins the choice is given to free slaves again highlights this is an act seen as favourable to God.
Sometimes, we just have to follow our conscience and make the best decisions given the information we have and the understanding we glean from it and hope its alright with God.
I would be very interested in your views and insights.
Peace.
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Peace All,
This is an interesting discussion. However, we should remember that the Koran tells us to read. There is no reason for any Muslim to be deciding for themselves how many hours to do. The Koran tells us to fast for 3 days for the length of the full moon following the hottest sun. Surely we should be following the Koran rather than individual conjecture.He gave us the Koran to guide us.
This is the whole point of Freeminds, to study the Koran objectively and using our intelligence based on the evidence base
Peace dawngorgeous
Could you backup this with evidence/verses/passage The Koran tells us to fast for 3 days for the length of the full moon following the hottest sun
Thanks in advance
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Peace Farida,
Yes, I have gone through all the arguments and detail found on Freeminds and my own intelligence to come to my own decision. Firstly, I rejected the Winter Ramadan, because it had holes.
Bearing in mind my Arabic is less than basic, you will understand I had to ponder and assess very carefully.
Basically, the meaning of the word Ramadan was my starting point (the hottest heat). I believe it is the full moon that we fast, not the month. God states clearly He doesn't want to make it difficult for us. Fasting for a month, especially in the northern hemisphere at the moment is difficult. It is difficult at any time. Fasting for 3 days for the first time this year made me appreciate the abstinence, whereas fasting in England 30 days last year left me questioning the religion.
When I read through the Koran the word for the count, a few days, is clearly 3 days. This is backed up by the fact that the full moon is three days. Also, you don't witness a month but you can witness a full moon.
I have just given you a very basic outline of how I got to where I am at the moment. You will have to go through all the arguments, old posts etc to make your own decisions.
It is really important to remain open. I think it might be easier for me because I was not born into a 'Muslim' family.
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Peace Farida,
Yes, I have gone through all the arguments and detail found on Freeminds and my own intelligence to come to my own decision. Firstly, I rejected the Winter Ramadan, because it had holes.
Peace dawngorgeous
Before I address your points in green I would paste here an observation from truthsearcher from another thread which basically explains how some theories are applied here on free Minds
So we start our theory and our theory is based in our mind because of our consciousness. At this point our consciousness say to us You have done the right thing - you are in the right way. And this is point when everything starts. We make our theory and when we find that our theory doesn't fit with facts (Quran=facts), we start "to change" the facts - that means we start to change meaning of arabic word or we start to check only for words that "fit the theory". This is what I think about all of this trouble
Now your points- Basically, the meaning of the word Ramadan was my starting point (the hottest heat)
If you do a search on the word by breaking it up into its vowels "Rama" & "Dan", you will find it has Hebrew meaning to it
Rama = Supreme
Dan = JudgeMonth of "Supreme Judgement".
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604078.msg302095#msg302095.Ramadan is the name of the month which was known to the people of the book when the Qur'an was revealed, which could mean this month was already known to Jews and Arabs as the month of "Supreme Judgement
2.a. When I read through the Koran the word for the count, a few days, is clearly 3 days. This is backed up by the fact that the full moon is three days.
The fact is this that a full moon lasts a few minutes not three days.
a The lunar cycle/orbit lasts about 29.53 day (29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes). The apparent change in size of the moon is due to the eccentricity of the lunar orbit.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_phase2.b Also, you don't witness a month but you can witness a full moon
Actully you only witness days and night which fall in the moon orbit, even a blind person who can not see moon can sense daytime and night so he witnesses shar/moon cycle of Ramadan and can fast in it .
b. The traditional concept arose with the cycle of moon phases; such months (lunations) are synodic months and last approximately 29.53 days. From excavated tally sticks, researchers have deduced that people counted days in relation to the Moon's phases as early as the Paleolithic age. Synodic months, based on the Moon's orbital period, are still the basis of many calendars today, and are used to divide the year.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synodic_month#Synodic_month- God states clearly He doesn't want to make it difficult for us. Fasting for a month, especially in the northern hemisphere at the moment is difficult. It is difficult at any time. Fasting for 3 days for the first time this year made me appreciate the abstinence, whereas fasting in England 30 days last year left me questioning the religion.
As you rightly say God states clearly He doesn't want to make it difficult for us. So God has given us choices to deal with it, according to our metabolism, beside why would Allah enjoin upon us to fast, even for a day, if it was indeed harmful for us or too hard to handle?!
As I understand you had to learn to fast at later stage which is always difficult to start with. Since Ramadan started to fall in summer we were also a bit concerned how we will manage it, but alhumdulilah many of us in England fast while working as usual. You only have to have faith in Allah when He informs us that fasting is good for us and do a bit of preparation before starting the fast and you will soon see how capably the human body adapts to a fast.- I have just given you a very basic outline of how I got to where I am at the moment. You will have to go through all the arguments, old posts etc to make your own decisions
I was part of those discussions and I am fully aware of all arguments there, and had I found any validity in hot or winter Ramadan theory I would have glady accepted it
- It is really important to remain open. I think it might be easier for me because I was not born into a 'Muslim' family.
You may think you have the advantage of having a free mind because you were not born into a 'Muslim' family, but if you only follow one man?s theory, without verifying if it has any basis in the Qur?an or in astronomy, then there is a risk of becoming part of a cult.
Salaam
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Peace Farida,
Yes, I agree with you about the cult business - which is why I choose to think for myself and keep and open mind - which is what the Koran tells us to do. Look around the world at Islam at the moment and we see the results of cult behaviour ie folk who do not think for themselves.
In order to get to my current understanding, as I pointed out, I have had to read extensively. I read several different translations of the Koran, I have read Aidid Safar, I read Shabbir Ahmed. The point I am making is exactly the opposite of what I understand you think I said.
You cannot base your understanding on one person's interpretation - you have to base it in your understanding, supported by the Koran. You can get to your understanding through discussion (such as on forums), face to face discussions with other open minded believers or indeed non-believers.
Yes, you are correct that the Koran may be interpreted in different ways and of course, as you pointed out, depending on where you are emotionally or psychologically, your interpretation may be coloured. However, without a doubt, God would have made provision for this in his greatness, because he created us.
The Koran is a guide book, a light. In order to access its guidance you have to remain open. Indeed, I am sure most of us would agree that although the Book is timeless, as time changes, more becomes apparent as and when God intends us to know.
To back up my last point, I imagine, were we to do a quick survey on people's understanding of Salat on this website, we would find that people are performing this ritual in very different ways, and not just in terms of how many rakats they do, or how many times per day they pray.
This is why I keep looking and listening, reading and discussing. Most of all, however, I aim to incorporate into my life, everything I think I have understood correctly from the Koran.
As a final example, I started out covering my head. Having read the Koran more closely and looked more closely at the language and the stories in the Koran, I realised that covering of the head was not necessary and indeed, the main thing about clothng is that it is modest.
I got to where I am currently from a starting point of the Submission.org organisation. Here I am now, miles away from Submission.org's beliefs but still a strong and open believer. I think the main thing is to hold fast to God and not be scared to peer out from our safe positions, because if we ask God to keep us on the straight road, I am pretty certain, if it His intention, that He will.
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The Koran is a guide book, a light. In order to access its guidance you have to remain open. Indeed, I am sure most of us would agree that although the Book is timeless, as time changes, more becomes apparent as and when God intends us to know.
I think the main thing is to hold fast to God and not be scared to peer out from our safe positions, because if we ask God to keep us on the straight road, I am pretty certain, if it His intention, that He will.
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Salaam,
Thank you all for your insights and for some people taking the time to give detailed explanations for their ramadan choices. Its been very useful for me and has given me much to think about and study in the light of the Quran.
Dawngorgeous, I fully concur with your above sentence(s) and they beautifully encapsulate what I have often thought.
Peace.
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When I read through the Koran the word for the count, a few days, is clearly 3 days. This is backed up by the fact that the full moon is three days. Also, you don't witness a month but you can witness a full moon.
Three wise men visited Jesus Christ
Three stars in the Orion belt (The stars pointing towards Sirius)
Three days between death and resurrection
Prayer is always three in number
The Father, son and holy spiritMorning, middle and evening salat...............fasting for three days............
Salam Dawn
I think you are onto something. I dont believe in coincidence and I do not believe the Quran was first. "Fast as those before you"...............
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Peace Farida,
This is why I keep looking and listening, reading and discussing. Most of all, however, I aim to incorporate into my life, everything I think I have understood correctly from the Koran.
As a final example, I started out covering my head. Having read the Koran more closely and looked more closely at the language and the stories in the Koran, I realised that covering of the head was not necessary and indeed, the main thing about clothng is that it is modest.
I got to where I am currently from a starting point of the Submission.org organisation. Here I am now, miles away from Submission.org's beliefs but still a strong and open believer. I think the main thing is to hold fast to God and not be scared to peer out from our safe positions, because if we ask God to keep us on the straight road, I am pretty certain, if it His intention, that He will.
Salaam dawngorgeous
I'm happy to read your reply and could add much of my experiences to it in response, but I don't like to say more than necessary about myself on forums, I have sent you a PM to give you an idea how we all have come a long way and are still learning.
May Allah swt guide us all to the right path.Peace
Salaam