GOGS/idolaters and MAGOGS/disbelievers theory

noshirk

This a google traduction of a part of a french article found here http//nawaat.org/portail/2012/07/14/ibadat-el-chouyoukhs-4-les-amas-luminescents-de-neurones-scintillants/

the author is called Sheikh Dukhani and he is not a sheikh.

Peace

see verses 18-83 to 18-100

One of the best candidates for Zul Qarnain is Cyrus II (Sheikh Dukhani recommend this page to learn more http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great_in_the_Qur 27an%).
Sheikh Dukhani avoid entering into a debate on this complex subject. However, the Black Sea was at the time of ancient Greece, regarded as the end of the world. The mountains of Georgia between the Black Sea from the Caspian Sea seem to be "the mountains" almost impassable for the third tribe. The dark sea of the first tribe (end of course to the east) could be the Black Sea or the Aegean Sea and Marmara Sea. The second tribe of the country could be Azerbaijan, relatively flat country, just south of the mountains of Georgia, with the Caspian Sea to the east, so without protection against the sun. The Georgian language is a language "weird" very specific. The same goes for Darial is a good candidate for the iron wall.
Historically, Georgia is a "crossroads of the invaders" and is the boundary separating at the time, the world of believers (Krishna, Mithra, Moses, etc. .. Sheikh Israel) and the infidel world ( Europe, Russia etc.).
The "zone" Georgian fit actually well with the story.

Let's start with the first tribe. The fact that God has no specific instructions (which is rare) could mean that it is theologically blameless. This could be understood by the fact that it did not receive a "book".
For ZUL Qarnain, so it is a purely civil matter where people are judged by their deeds and not of their faith (no time to dwell on this example of Koranic Sharia of God applied to the disbelievers).
The second tribe, however seems to be present in the narrative as a geographical indication.
One of the most misleading interpretations of the story is that the Gogs and Magog were imprisoned by the Wall. There is nothing to indicate that The iron wall protects only the "third" tribe andand not others from Gog and Magogs.
The only logical explanation is to consider that this is the third tribe that was enclosed. Unless, of course, to assume that somewhere on the planet, there would be a small enclave where two powerful tribes capable of invading the world are disputing permanently. It would be visible in the 21st century.
But between "reasonable people", is the most reasonable to consider that the Gog and Magog are, and always have been, free.
Who are these Magogs and Gogs whor are breaking through waves one each another?

In Arabic, Gog and Magog are written JUJ and Majuj. In Arabic, JUJ means a fake and worthless pearl. The French expression "put on fake pearls" (or waste time on nonsense) has an equivalent in Arabic (AAJ wa jaj). As "Ma" is a kind of negation or opposition, Ma- JUJ could then mean, those who respond to nonsense by other nonsense.
Thus, the idolaters would represent Jujs and the disbelievers would represent the Ma-Jujs. On one side we have the spiritual son of greatest Gog of all time, Sheikh Israel, "jujing" on what GOD is saying and on the other side, we have people who spend their time "MA" - "jujing". Just read the Quranic verses that follow the story of Gog and Magog to realize oh how this interpretation is in context.

Of course we can quibble about the identification of Magog. Should we distinguish between the worshipers of the Sun God, God of Nature or God's universe? Let's say it's just those who do not believe in the existence of an invisible God Almighty.

Gog and Magog is us. Gog and Magog are waves who so swept over each other and at some places, it became very difficult to separate them.
Although intermarriage is rare, it is not unusual for a couple of Magog to gives birth a GOG and vice versa. This shows how the mixture has become inextricable.
For centuries, Gog and Magogs break us the ears with the theology and theology against junk. They put (Yakhrouzon) worthless pearls, tirelessly.

It is also amusing to note the phonetic similarity between "JUJ" with the verb Judge. The 7th book of the Bible, after that of Yeshua, is also the book of Judges. The word judge, in Bible, is closely related to the concept of Shoorah (in Hebrew) which means "keep the right path" in the absence of divine word.
In the theology of Islam to the sheikhs, Shoorah (in Arabic) is also an assembly of old sheikhs who come together to "JUDGE" of what God says when he says nothing.

Of course, Sheikh Dukhani not fail to note the profound meaning of "joujma" in Tunisia. The etymology is unknown but the sense clearly means a "headlock". A Debate "joujmant" is a debate that is a headache and does nothing.

Finally, the reward of Jujerie and Majujerie is ajaj (hellfire).
We will now consider the case Cyrus II. Zul Qarnain name in Arabic can mean two horns, two centuries or two peoples. The use of the word in the Koran Qarn to look unquestionably the expression two peoples. Cyrus had just conquered a territory that included Gogs and Magogs proposed as defined above. But most important is that Cyrus, instituted in the name of God religious freedom and wrote what is currently considered the first declaration of human rights in a cylinder still visible today. Cyrus helped all religions including those who were not his. The name of God, Cyrus was the first s?cular, no offense to Gogs and Magogs today. So is a great King according to the Koran when Gogs and Magogs are mixed together.

Finally, we know from verse 21-96 that Magogs and Gogs will mix up to the end of time. It was then that the inhabitants of a city that God destroyed (Ahlaka) will return (21-95). Ahlaka by consulting the Koran, is consistently associated with death. To the knowledge of Sheikh Dukhani, there is only one resurrection scheduled.

The journey of Moses with the mysterious messenger of God takes another dimension with this interpretation. The hero of the story is not, of course, the mysterious man whom we will not know nothing about , and who make quantity of Gogs crazy about a prophet who would be even greater prophet than Moses.
Moses is the hero of the story. It becomes, in this journey, simple human, simple believer. He is overwhelmed by one who "knows" the future. It is not a prophet (one who makes prophecies) but a simply Nabi (informed) and Rassool (messenger).
The deeper meaning of these verses is the message sent by God to believers when he explains that he knows what he does and believers must continue to believe in him, even if they are unable to understand the merits of certain injustices they see.
God, for sure, knows the future. He manipulates time and the action as a novelist would do in his novel.
After this teaching, the Quran talks about Jujs and Majujs. Two "tribes" with whom God have a different te resolve. The Muslim God must impose a veil "iron" against the two types of disbeleiving (jujeries and my-jujeries).
The Jujs and Majus dominate the world forever. They are Caliphs on earth and the only novelty is the mixture. The Muslim To God must accept it whatever are the "theological"problems. God have no need for Muslims to God for his victory or the victory of his religion on earth, if this had been his will.

Pick up the story with Constantine, the great theologian of Christianity and archaeologist. At that time, a strange religion was rooted in peace, among the peoples of Europe and the Roman legions. This was the cult of Mithras. A religion that Christians consider as pagan Sheikhs although most of his beliefs, rituals and holidays will be found in Christianity. Mithras does seem to have swallowed up the false prophet and Jesus is probably not who you think.
Mithra is the central actor of a religion called Zoroastrianism, a monotheistic religion or God is called Ahura Mazda. The first Muslims who arrived in Persia were so impressed by this cult that his followers would have been considered "People of the Book."
Obviously, Zoroastrianism had its Gogs and versions of Mithra have increased slightly. But the hypothesis "book people" might suggest that Mithras, whose son is one version of a virgin, is nothing but a distorted image of the "nephew of Moses and Aaron"
Zoroastrianism is not his first foray into the Judeo-Christianity as it was the religion of our Cyrus II. Cyrus is the liberator of the Jews and is the one who ordered the construction of the second temple. Many "reformers" and Jews, certainly, due were inspired by Zoroastrianism, even that during the exile.
(notice also that abbassides are mainly zoraosters by origin, as bukhari, Muslim, tabari, thrimidhi, abu dawud...)

In any case, the ebb and flow between Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Mithraism (and islam) show that the science of oceanography of the divine word is far too complex for mere mortals like us. The ebb and flow becomes even more complicated when we include the pagan religions in oceanographic analyzes.

The Koran is very clear on one point. On earth, it is the Magogs who are the most numerous (12-103). The majority of those remaining are Gogs (12-106). The Muslims to GoD are a minority and must learn to live in a world of Gogs and Magogs.

johan

Salam noshirk,

Thank you for this post, I loved it.
I loved how this theory brews the words and terminologies from various cultures and language and tries to see a pattern of similarities in a broader sense;
like how it derives the juj and linking it to judge etc.. lovely

Though i have my criticism on this perhaps because of my lack of understanding on the subject

The neglection of the importance of iron and copper in the wall construction that seperates the believers from Gog and Magog.
I think there is a need to signify the importance of this construction in the theory, IMO it's one of the most important element in the story since it's the clearest aspects of gog and magog in the Quran.
The mixing between muslim and mu'min; not sure whether you difrentiate between muslim and it's capital counter part Muslim and what it signifies.
but I'd argue that among the gog and magogs are those who submit to Allah and thus be called muslim, but only a few or maybe even none of the mu'min are in the faction of gog and magogs and thus the mentioning of the minority of mu'min in the verse 12103 etc
The era settings; this is probably the hardest to determine; the question whether at the time of dzul qarnain, were they technologically advanced nation? and to what extent were the advancements? does understanding the iron and copper signifies a lack of technology (as in the phase of history between bronze age to iron age theories) or simply showing a subset of the understood technology in that time (wherby electricity has been around the way some people theorize as to the functions of pyramid as a capacitor of some sort to generating electricity); and this will impact as to the scale of the land mass covered by Dzul Qarnayn.
Some theorise that the land mass encapsulates the whole europe-african-asian continent, and this would only mean the level of technology is high enough to accomplish this task)
This is a bit out of the Quranic point i'm making. The incorporation of The Dajjal/anti christ in the Ya'jooj and Ma'jooj story line is not existent in the post. Why? I think even though that Quran did not mention the idea of Dajjal, but maybe because it's a sort of concuction of one of the elements in Ya'jooj and Ma'jooj, that will cause it to collide as in waves one to the other.
The idea where one faction seeks for a saviour in mans hand (the dajjal) and the other seeks to destroy that saviour (the anti-dajjal) makes a lot of sense in the agenda of colliding between the two faction.

would love to hear you're opinion to the points mentioned..

all in all lovely post )

wallahua3lam

noshirk

Salam Johan

Theology of Cheikh dukhani is a little complicated and he wrote more than hundred pages in French. Cheikh Dukhani has many other amazing theories.

He divides humanity in three main categories
1- Idolaters=Muslims to scholars (humans that follows sheikhs, pastors rabiis etc?)
2- Disbelievers (who don?t believe in GOD)
3- Muslims to God

According to his definition
Mu?min=Muslim to God + Jihad (by money, fighting etc.)
Idolaters=believers that believe in God and other things and follow books written by humans and attributed to god.

Notice that for Cheikh Dukhani, idolaters are the worst enemies of Muslims to God, even more than disbelievers. It is because they are big liers and they distort and pervert words of God. It is also, according to him, because idolaters are people who fought the prophets. All prophets came in original Gog territories.

However, Muslim can not be Muslims as we use to use this term. Muslims are who believe in God and the thereafter and make good things in name of god. They can be not Muslims in the sense we know actually and can be, falsely, classified for example as Christians or Jews or others. They received the book but not the last version called Koran.
Personally, I like the interpretation that good Christians and good Jews will be considered by God as Muslims to him.

I think that the author don?t believe in the return of Jesus and in the Dajjal because there is no mention of them in Koran. In fact, he doesn?t believe that Jesus is the messie but consider that Yeshua Bin Nun, who he consider as the nephew of Moses, is the true issa ibn meriem . There is many Messies that appeared in history and all are false. All future Messies would be false.

The era settings for the history of Gog and Magog in Koran would be the era of Cyrus II.
According to this theory, the conquests conducted by Alexander the great, soon after Cyrus II era, could be considered as the first big wave of Magogs over the Gogs. The diffusion of Christiannity in Europe could be considered as the first big wave of Gogs over the Magogs.

Allahou aalem

johan

Salam Johan

Theology of Cheikh dukhani is a little complicated and he wrote more than hundred pages in French. Cheikh Dukhani has many other amazing theories.

He divides humanity in three main categories
1- Idolaters=Muslims to scholars (humans that follows sheikhs, pastors rabiis etc?)
2- Disbelievers (who don?t believe in GOD)
3- Muslims to God

According to his definition
Mu?min=Muslim to God + Jihad (by money, fighting etc.)
Idolaters=believers that believe in God and other things and follow books written by humans and attributed to god.

Notice that for Cheikh Dukhani, idolaters are the worst enemies of Muslims to God, even more than disbelievers. It is because they are big liers and they distort and pervert words of God. It is also, according to him, because idolaters are people who fought the prophets. All prophets came in original Gog territories.

However, Muslim can not be Muslims as we use to use this term. Muslims are who believe in God and the thereafter and make good things in name of god. They can be not Muslims in the sense we know actually and can be, falsely, classified for example as Christians or Jews or others. They received the book but not the last version called Koran.
Personally, I like the interpretation that good Christians and good Jews will be considered by God as Muslims to him.

I think that the author don?t believe in the return of Jesus and in the Dajjal because there is no mention of them in Koran. In fact, he doesn?t believe that Jesus is the messie but consider that Yeshua Bin Nun, who he consider as the nephew of Moses, is the true issa ibn meriem . There is many Messies that appeared in history and all are false. All future Messies would be false.

The era settings for the history of Gog and Magog in Koran would be the era of Cyrus II.
According to this theory, the conquests conducted by Alexander the great, soon after Cyrus II era, could be considered as the first big wave of Magogs over the Gogs. The diffusion of Christiannity in Europe could be considered as the first big wave of Gogs over the Magogs.

Allahou aalem

Salam noshirk,

I wonder if you're aware of this interpretation of muslim and mu'min.
I wonder if you see any difference in this interpretation with that of the sheikh.

Do you think the sheikh believes that believing in the Quran would mean idolizing it?

Would love to learn more on the idea of messiah, since AFAIK it's not so clear either in the Quran on the subject.

Thanks

mmkhan

Would love to learn more on the idea of messiah, since AFAIK it's not so clear either in the Quran on the subject.

Salaam Johan,

You missed something bro. It has to be "it's not so clear to me either in the Quran on the subject". You already know that AlQuraan explains everything in detail.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

johan

Salaam Johan,

You missed something bro. It has to be "it's not so clear to me either in the Quran on the subject". You already know that AlQuraan explains everything in detail.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

salam mmKhan,

thanks for the correction bro, yes i misssed that out..
but perhaps you have favourite thread on it that you might want to share the link with me?

noshirk

to johan

Do you think the sheikh believes that believing in the Quran would mean idolizing it?

of course, no.
However the term coranist or quran only follower is not a quaran term and the coranist term looks like a name of a sect.
i like more the expression muslim to god used by Cheikh Dukhani. It is a quranic term.

idolizing quran is a provoking sentence but we have to remember that islam is submission to god and not to his creation and that quran is a creation from god.
I think that studiyng only quran is not sufficient to understant islam.
we have to include all creation of god in th study. For example, olds testaments, all types of science, history...

salam

johan

to johan

of course, no.
However the term coranist or quran only follower is not a quaran term and the coranist term looks like a name of a sect.
i like more the expression muslim to god used by Cheikh Dukhani. It is a quranic term.

i agree as per verse 2278

idolizing quran is a provoking sentence but we have to remember that islam is submission to god and not to his creation and that quran is a creation from god.

i'm not sure if the word of God is His creation or is part of Him
though I would tend toward the latter
This expression seem to resonate to me better
Anything you say or do can and will be held against you in a court of law.

I think that studiyng only quran is not sufficient to understant islam.
we have to include all creation of god in th study. For example, olds testaments, all types of science, history...

salam

I agree partially about not focusing entirely on quran ("the book&quot on how to understand islam
only in the sens that is if the quran is taken literally
i.e. to stop at the quranic text without delving more on the symbolic meaning and it's implication of exploring the world around us
so we definitely need to explore the world around us as that is what the quran symbolically is implying us to do

it may not be telling us to create labs for a seti program but we can derive that symbolically to mean that..hehe

I disagree about the previous scriptures being part of the study because it might mislead us, unless we take it only as an interpretation which can be falsified just as the interpretation of the physicist on the facts of physical properties derived from the observation of the universe
as interpretations and observations are man made
but ayaat kauniyyah the observed phenomenons are The Creator's will

wallahua3lam

mmkhan

salam mmKhan,

thanks for the correction bro, yes i misssed that out..
but perhaps you have favourite thread on it that you might want to share the link with me?

Salaam brother Johan,

You are very welcome bro.

favorite thread on? hmm I did not get it really, please explain further. You mean on Gogs and Magogs? If yes, sorry I don't know any thread about it.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

johan

Salaam brother Johan,

You are very welcome bro.

favorite thread on? hmm I did not get it really, please explain further. You mean on Gogs and Magogs? If yes, sorry I don't know any thread about it.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Salaam brother mmKhan,

no, what i meant was about the idea of messiah bro..

thanks and happy raya (taqabballah minna wa minkum, minal 3aideen wal faaizeen inshaallah)
won't be around for the next two-three weeks

mmkhan

Salaam brother mmKhan,

no, what i meant was about the idea of messiah bro..

thanks and happy raya (taqabballah minna wa minkum, minal 3aideen wal faaizeen inshaallah)
won't be around for the next two-three weeks

Salaam brother Johan,

I am planning to write something on Esa soon inshaAllah. Thanks and same to you, but what is raya? You mean Eid? or city of Nepal? P

BTW, taking leave for two-three weeks? Do you live in Arab country? .

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

noble

noshirk, your research and that of pazuzu complement each other beautifully...

thanks for publishing yours here...

merci beaucoup.

Jafar

Gog and Magog are people of northern area, which by the time of the Quran writing was largely uncharted and unknown.

The nomadic people inhabiting the "Northern Part" who has consistently strike fear due to their sudden attack and raid since ancient times.
They're recognized by many names throughout the century, starting from "The Hun", "The Turks", "The Mongols" etc..

Scientifically they're being named as "Altaic People" due to the similarity of their language.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages.

The Romans, The Persians and The Chinese share the similarities of this 'constant fear' about them. And ALL of them built some kind of wall to contain them. The most dazzling is not the wall made by Persians (Cyrus) or Romans but the wall made by the Chinese!
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Wall_of_China

Which has proven to be not enough to hold the invasion of the "Barbaric People from The North".
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_conquests

So as we speak now in current modern time..
The Altaic / Gog Magog people has indeed migrate, invade and spread nearly all across the globe. The history has recorded the devastating effect of the Hun Invasion, the Mongol invasion, the Turkic invasion and the German + Japanese invasion in WWII etc..

Now they have mixed with the rest of humanity and now they have become "us".
The "Prophecy" has been fulfilled many centuries ago..

Salam / Peace