So we can't Marry Someone who has Fornicated!?

Red_Eye_Girl

Peace all,

So i've seen this verse

242 "The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding the system of God if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment."
243 "The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or she who is a polytheist. And the adulteress, she will only be married to an adulterer or he who is a polytheist. And such has been made forbidden for the believers."

I know it says adultery here but the original word is Zina which can mean either fornication or adultery.

I really find that these verses make things quite very hard. Living in the west, there are tons people who fornicate with chaste ones being rare and if I do find one they overtly fundamental traditionalists or overtly religious people of the book.

This verse looks like it would punish them during that time, but seriously in this modern age, I feel I being more punished then they are as they got a great number of people they can be with while there is virtually no one here who is like that.

I have read posts that suggest that this refers more to adultery and in general prostitutes than fornicating which I understand that but I haven't seen any legit proof to back up that claim.

I have also been thinking that this might refer more to us believers as usually one who is a believer would go under such a punishment and not others.

What do you guys think? I wouldn't think God would want me to be lonely.

es

I love your posts. You vaguely remind me of myself many many years ago until I decided to become "overtly religious" and remain "chaste" until my marriage. You're ever so endearing.

Aryan_Warrior

I love your posts. You vaguely remind me of myself many many years ago until I decided to become "overtly religious" and remain "chaste" until my marriage. You're ever so endearing.

Overtly religious traditionalists are scary though unlike overtly religious Quranists.

es

Overtly religious traditionalists are scary though unlike overtly religious Quranists.

I was being facetious about the "overtly religious" part. I have no idea what that means.

es

Overtly religious traditionalists are scary though unlike overtly religious Quranists.

Oh, hang on, yes, I do. It's vaguely coming back to me, what type of people I would define as such when I was an adolescent-because this is how I think I used to be-but I could be wrong. It was such a long time ago.

Aryan_Warrior

eitherways I am curious about this topic myself.

johan

Salam all,

I wouldn't condemn all people in the west to be unworthy of Allah's SWT mercy. In fact, it's because of the modernised west that the mercy of Allah SWT is felt throughout the world with all it's glorious technological advancements.

And if the majority of west lifestyle is free/liberal in sexual sense while at the same time Allah SWT has showered us with this advancement in technology is only strengthening the corelation between liberal lifestyle and barokah/blessings.

So to think that fornication and/or adultry to be the term suitable for zinaa is so in conflict with the signs that Allah SWT is trying to send out.

I think however, this time the liberalness of the west is at a crossroad between doing the right thing and the wrong thing. and that quran might have an answer to that. i'm talking about the movement of gay life and how unnatural it is. but i could be wrong in this..

about prostitution,
i don't think their evil?
how is it evil?
when the quran talks about dowries(9aduqaatihinna), what is it different from that of prostitute earning good mutually beneficial money?
just fyi, i want to add that 9adaqah would also mean alms..
beside it's the male side that relinquishes his rights to his crop after he has sown it not the other way round.
wouldn't that be the case for Maryam(Marry) AS?

wallahua3lam

Recluse

The verse is referring to people who have chosen fornication or adultery as a lifestyle or habit. If on the other hand someone has fornicated, but repented and stopped doing it you can marry that person. It worries and saddens me that so many people don't understand the Qur'anic message at all. Including those who think they do.

Red_Eye_Girl

Salam all,

I wouldn't condemn all people in the west to be unworthy of Allah's SWT mercy. In fact, it's because of the modernised west that the mercy of Allah SWT is felt throughout the world with all it's glorious technological advancements.

And if the majority of west lifestyle is free/liberal in sexual sense while at the same time Allah SWT has showered us with this advancement in technology is only strengthening the corelation between liberal lifestyle and barokah/blessings.

So to think that fornication and/or adultry to be the term suitable for zinaa is so in conflict with the signs that Allah SWT is trying to send out.

I think however, this time the liberalness of the west is at a crossroad between doing the right thing and the wrong thing. and that quran might have an answer to that. i'm talking about the movement of gay life and how unnatural it is.

about prostitution,
i don't think their evil?
how is it evil?
when the quran talks about dowries(9aduqaatihinna), what is it different from that of prostitute earning good mutually beneficial money?
beside it's the male side that relinquishes his rights to his crop after he has sown it not the other way round.
wouldn't that be the case for Maryam(Marry) AS?

wallahua3lam

I never said that the west isn't worthy of Allah's mercy nor do I condemn the west and many of its ideas. However there are things that indeed do reach crossroads like as you said the gay movement and such.

The verse is referring to people who have chosen fornication or adultery as a lifestyle or habit. If on the other hand someone has fornicated, but repented and stopped doing it you can marry that person. It worries and saddens me that so many people don't understand the Qur'anic message at all. Including those who think they do.

Well thats the thing what is their "lifestlye or habit"? prostitution is whatI think of with that.

However that is the problem though, they aren't followers of the Quran to get down and repent so why would they? Heck if I tried to force them to repent, they would look at me oddly and think of me as fundamental religious fanatic and may even leave cause of that impression.

Heck the entire punishment of lashing looks to be one prescribed to someone who is a follower of the Quran (a believer) so I can't see it applying to the non-muslims fornicator?

What do you think?

johan

Salam Red Eye Girl,

I really find that these verses make things quite very hard. Living in the west, there are tons people who fornicate with chaste ones being rare and if I do find one they overtly fundamental traditionalists or overtly religious people of the book.

This verse looks like it would punish them during that time, but seriously in this modern age, I feel I being more punished then they are as they got a great number of people they can be with while there is virtually no one here who is like that.

sorry if you didn't mean to condemn
to me these are symptoms of condemnation..
but if my words are harsh or wrong, please forgive me

about the term zinaa..
it seems to have a similar construction of that of ribaa..

zinaa would have a root of zay-ya-nun
ribaa would have a root of ra-ya-ba

zay-ya-nun could mean extavagance/posh/looking good/adoration
the extremisation (is it a word? ) of zay-ya-nun would be zinaa that would mean extravagance that is aquired through illigitamate ways out of their spouses

i'haven't found any verse on zinaa that has a relationship that is independant of the context of marriage..

ra-ya-ba could mean ambiguity/uncertainty/(things like hedgeing, insurance, etc would be categorised as this)
the extremisation of ra-ya-ba would be ribaa that would mean abuse of uncertainty

on the subject of lashings
usually extreme situation requires extreme measures..
stealing is extreme situation
so if zinaa would have that meaning of illigitimate ways of acquiring things from your spouse that would coincide with stealing and thus harsh punishment, but not as harsh as cutting hands(like when you cut your hand accidentally when you cut cucumbers or onioins 1231) because you are only abusing the rights you have and not taking away totally other's rights
and lashing could also be done with a stack of harmless hay sticks as some prophets done previously 3844..so it depends on the severity and the wisdom of the jury and judge passing the sentence..

wallahua3lam

btw i updated some of my post in here

Red_Eye_Girl

Salam Red Eye Girl,sorry if you didn't mean to condemn
to me these are symptoms of condemnation..
but if my words are harsh or wrong, please forgive me

Peace and what is this? your simply here to say I was trying to condemn the west? I want more an answer this topic at hand.

I was simply expressing how this verse simply makes believers living in the west feel like they are taking more the punishment than those who simply fornicated as they got so many to simply choose from. This is why I think this really can't be the case of us not going with fornicators but rather maybe its those who were actually flogged.

johan

Peace and what is this? your simply here to say I was trying to condemn the west? I want more an answer this topic at hand.

I was simply expressing how this verse simply makes believers living in the west feel like they are taking more the punishment than those who simply fornicated as they got so many to simply choose from. This is why I think this really can't be the case of us not going with fornicators but rather maybe its those who were actually flogged.

understood..
have you ever watched a commercial on the series Whitney?
where she says women when they say "i'm fine" what they meant was "i'am about to kick you in the &^*&"?
i just thought that sometime we express things in words that might be interpretable in other ways beyond our imaginations .. lol

peace

btw i did it again, only in the post after it..
i updated some of my post in here

357

The verse is referring to people who have chosen fornication or adultery as a lifestyle or habit. If on the other hand someone has fornicated, but repented and stopped doing it you can marry that person. It worries and saddens me that so many people don't understand the Qur'anic message at all. Including those who think they do.

yep, never thought of it that way. A thief is a thief while he is at it, but if he gives it up you can't call him one.

bravo

IAMOP

People who have sex with a lot of people develop an inherent dissatisfaction with all their partners. Simple fact of life. I love how people try to justify this by saying they're different and those guys are just doing it wrong but you can't argue with biology.

If you don't want to get burnt, stay away from fires.

Zulf

The verse is referring to people who have chosen fornication or adultery as a lifestyle or habit. If on the other hand someone has fornicated, but repented and stopped doing it you can marry that person. It worries and saddens me that so many people don't understand the Qur'anic message at all. Including those who think they do.

Great answer. Exactly the way I understand it!
One will not be branded, labelled and burnt forever. That just doesn't make sense, and it doesn't go along with the forgiveness of Allah or the concept of improving oneself and growing, and repenting would be sort of useless.

Red_Eye_Girl

understood..
have you ever watched a commercial on the series Whitney?
where she says women when they say "i'm fine" what they meant was "i'am about to kick you in the &^*&"?
i just thought that sometime we express things in words that might be interpretable in other ways beyond our imaginations .. lol

peace

btw i did it again, only in the post after it..
i updated some of my post in here

I saw your post, while I do like it in that Zina might refer only to adultery I still don't feel its enough proof /

yep, never thought of it that way. A thief is a thief while he is at it, but if he gives it up you can't call him one.

bravo

Well if that was the case it wouldn't be bad if it was simply "giving it up" which in this case would be that they are dedicated to me and therefore wouldn't fornicate with me. However its asking for "repentance" which if I were to ask the other I will just appear as "strictly religious" to them and many in the west and a lot don't like those types and will be quick to judge. Thus why I wanna know if this is more punishment to someone who has been already lashed or not and if it only applies to believers or not as a non-believer would not go through such a punishment like lashing in the first place.

People who have sex with a lot of people develop an inherent dissatisfaction with all their partners. Simple fact of life. I love how people try to justify this by saying they're different and those guys are just doing it wrong but you can't argue with biology.

If you don't want to get burnt, stay away from fires.

And you should try to stop lumping everyone who isn't a muslim into one group. Remember there are people in the west who fornicate but only with their "partners" and not everywhere and anything like a prostitute. Thus why I wanna know if this is more punishment to someone who has been already lashed or not and if it only applies to believers or not as a non-believer would not go through such a punishment like lashing in the first place.

Great answer. Exactly the way I understand it!
One will not be branded, labelled and burnt forever. That just doesn't make sense, and it doesn't go along with the forgiveness of Allah or the concept of improving oneself and growing, and repenting would be sort of useless.

Problem is that I wanna know if this is more punishment to someone who has been already lashed or not and if it only applies to believers or not as a non-believer would not go through such a punishment like lashing in the first place. Considering the facts that I can't simply tell people to repent here as I may be view as "fundamentally religious" which has a bad stigma amongst the general public.

Someone

Peace REG,

Do you have 4 witnesses for the act of fornication? else you cannot accuse anyone, or worse if you accuse someone without providing the 4 witnesses you would get lashed 80 times.

I think it is more to refrain people from exagerating in their sex habits, and avoid public sex.

But certainly, chastety is even better.

Zulf

Peace REG,

Do you have 4 witnesses for the act of fornication? else you cannot accuse anyone, or worse if you accuse someone without providing the 4 witnesses you would get lashed 80 times.

I think it is more to refrain people from exagerating in their sex habits, and avoid public sex.

But certainly, chastety is even better.

Sensible answer

Problem is that I wanna know if this is more punishment to someone who has been already lashed or not and if it only applies to believers or not as a non-believer would not go through such a punishment like lashing in the first place. Considering the facts that I can't simply tell people to repent here as I may be view as "fundamentally religious" which has a bad stigma amongst the general public.

I smell an owl buried when we talk about what applies to believers and what applies to non-believers.
Why? Because how can we possibly look into someone's heart to see if that person is a believer? Or how do you tell a believer from a hypocrite? Do we really have the capacity to judge others? Allah has. Do we? Do we know enough to be able to judge someone as a believer or non-believer or whatever? I don't think so.
This is off topic, but whether or not we'd be considered this or that by the general public should not get in way of what we believe it. I mean, we should not care too much about what other people think of us. People will always think different things about you, not because of who you are, but because of who THEY are.
We can tell people to repent, but we cannot command people to repent. At most it would be as a friendly advice, which they may heed or not heed. Repentance comes from inside when someone has developed, grown and seen and realized some truth that they didn't see before, i.e. they have matured. Repentance is either genuine, or it is not at all. You can't fake it, as it is a state of mind and an understanding and a desire to do the right thing.
Telling someone to repent can actually have the opposite effect. If they are not ready to repent, they will often just resist more. And if they do repent, then it means they were about to, or at least mature and ready to, already before they were asked to. But we can never ever make someone repent by just asking them.

Peace

johan

I saw your post, while I do like it in that Zina might refer only to adultery I still don't feel its enough proof /

i didn't mean to say zinaa to be adultery, because adultery it's pov is sexual rights infringements against the spouse
but more of a financial rights infringements against the spouse
could it be that Ayyoob AS lashed his wife because of that?
she left him broke, that's what i could one way infere from the story line

Well if that was the case it wouldn't be bad if it was simply "giving it up" which in this case would be that they are dedicated to me and therefore wouldn't fornicate with me. However its asking for "repentance" which if I were to ask the other I will just appear as "strictly religious" to them and many in the west and a lot don't like those types and will be quick to judge. Thus why I wanna know if this is more punishment to someone who has been already lashed or not and if it only applies to believers or not as a non-believer would not go through such a punishment like lashing in the first place.

dedicated to me in what sense?
if it's sexually, then it doesn't answer polygamy related verse
neither is it if it's financially

but as we know that a company can have shareholders
and that's what i think of marriage contract is..
a male "company" is open to contracts with 4 max female "company" in financial terms in the sense of inheritance of assets (equities-liabilities)
an infringement on those contracts renders the party to be liable of zinaa charges

so prostitution it's sexually related infringement based on commonly (but maybe unfounded quranically, at least in this kind of interpretation) accepted norms
but since the contract is financially contextualised, then the charges are of no relevance

Problem is that I wanna know if this is more punishment to someone who has been already lashed or not and if it only applies to believers or not as a non-believer would not go through such a punishment like lashing in the first place.
Considering the facts that I can't simply tell people to repent here as I may be view as "fundamentally religious" which has a bad stigma amongst the general public.

i'm not sure if i understood this question
i'll just answer the part about the applicability against a believer
imo, the application onto believers is a voluntary act
it's only applicable if the believer states publicly that he is a believer of a particular set of laws and thus the shahada and the contract, otherwise it's hard to prove
i suppose that's why the verse on marriages are with a believer and not with a mushrik
how about a marriage with a muslim? hmm that's like treading in unchartered waters..
but one thing for sure Allah SWT never disallowed it
probably because only a mushrik is considered his oaths questionable unless he is bounded by a treaty with the muslim ummah i suppose..

wallahua3lam

Recluse

I think it is more to refrain people from exagerating in their sex habits, and avoid public sex.

But certainly, chastety is even better.

No. We are even commanded to lower our gaze. Do you honestly think that we are allowed to fornicate, if we can't even LOOK at the opposite sex in a lustful way? In islam sex is only allowed in marriage, period. No ifs or buts...

Also, why are some here talking about what non-Muslims would "think" of them? Muslims are not allowed to marry disbelievers, thus I don't see the relevance.