Zoroastrianism: The hidden monotheist religion that greatly influenced others
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Let's continue with traduction of Cheikh Dukhani fantasies.
Zoroastrianism is a monotheistic religion in the old Persian Kingdom. It became marginal in nowadays.
However, this religion had a great influence on the three main religions.
Zoroastrianism was the religion of the Great Cyrus II, one of the best candidates for ZUL Qarnain.
Cyrus II released Jews in babylone and permitted the construction of the second temple.
The Mishnah and the Gemara (of Talmud Babylon) were written under Persian political rulers.For Christians, the Mithra cult on wich was based the Christian theology is a branch of Zoroastrianism. Mithra Cult was followed by Romans legions. Emperor Constantin reunified religion in his empire in the council of Nicee, and made a great mix of Judaism, christianism and Mithra cult.
For Muslims, The Abbasid dynasty was ruled by old Zoroaster?s family. Many great vizirs were issued from the Zoroaster family of Barmakids. The mother of Harun Al Rashid was an ally of barmakid family and inspired Shehrazade in the famous 1001 Nights.
It is the Abbasid caliph Marouan who first told Imam Malek to compile Hadiths. Imam malek died under the reign of Harun Al Rashid. All great compilers of Hadiths appeared during abbasid dynasties and had Zorosater Background. Bukhari was Persian. Imam Muslim was Persian. Tabari was Persian. Abu Dawud was Persian. Tirmidhi was Persian.Zoroaster?s had the 5 salats rites and were considered ?people of the book? by early muslims.
The funniest hypothesis of Cheikh Dukhani is that, perhaps, behind the hidden religion of Zoroastrianism, there is is a true hidden prophet. The first one who is born from virgin by a divine miracle. The one whose mother is sister of Aaron as Quran said.
peace
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i would like to add two links.
The first is a rapid comparison between Mithraism and Christianity
http//ancienthistory.about.com/cs/godsreligion/a/mithraismxmas.htmMithra is an important figure of Zoroastrianism
Story of Mithra looks very like story of Issa.
The verse proclaiming that Mary is sister of Aaron can be interpreted, at least, as Issa is comtemporary to Moses.
Now see this http//ancienthistory.about.com/od/godsmyth/g/taurobolium.htm
This ritual looks very similar to the story of Baqara (2-67 to 2-73).What i mean, at least, is that mithra story and jesus story seems to have a common ancestor that looks very like to issa ibn meriem story.
Peace
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Salam
302 The Romans have won.
303 At the lowest part on the earth. But after their victory, they will be defeated.copy from here http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ar-Rum
The surah begins by noting the recent defeat of the Romans by the Persians. It in turn calls Muslims to look forward to the victory it prophesies of the Emperor Heraclius' Christians over the Persian Zoroastrians. In it, Christianity is shown preference over non-Abrahamic faiths.
The early Muslim community perceived the Greeks of the Christian Byzantine Empire (or Eastern Romans, therefore ar-Rum) as nearer to their religion, whilst the Meccan idolaters felt more inclined to the Persian religion which was also idolatrous. According to Muslim tradition, the Meccans taunted the Muslims by pointing to the recent military defeats of the Byzantines by the Persian Sassanid Empire, that adhered to Zoroastrianism, and predicted that the Christian Byzantines were about to be defeated, and that the Muslims were next in line
Coincidence ?
Peace
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Salams noshirk...
Yes, this is very interesting stuff... I have always suspected a Judeo-Persian conspiracy to corrupt the deen of Allah to a point where it is no longer recognizable as what Muhammad (P) really preached.
I have one comment I'd like to make concerning the Roman vs. Persian wars.
The Quranic passage mentions a battle that took place in "adna'l ardh"
Can you explain what is the logic behind translating "adna" as "LOWEST"??
Is it really saying "The lowest point of the earth"? Or is it actually "the NEAREST.
point"??To my knowlegde, "adna" = close or near. For example, "Near East" = Sharq adna.
Far East = Sharq Aqsa. So, adna is the opposite of Aqsa.In Surat Najm ("The Star", it describes a vision in which Muhammad(P) saw the mala'ka of revelation (Jibreel) appear to him over a tree. The ayah is saying that Jibreel came near to him, and uses the word "dana" , which means "to come close".
If the Quran meant to say "lowest point" it would have said "ASFAL'l ardh" , not "adna".
What do you think??
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Peace Pazuzu.
You are both right.
Let me give you the following explanation
" Adna a-lard" means closest to earth. Imagine the lowest point on earth as closest to earth and the highest point ( like top of the highest mountain) as the furthest from earth. Hence "lowest point" .
Hope this helps.
Peace.
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Peace be with you guys as well,
a note for the word "adna", yes in some instances it does mean "closer to/near to", however, in some instances it does mean low/lower grade like in 261..... 699, has a derivative meaning of "low".
See http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=dnw#(26127) -
Salams noshirk...
Yes, this is very interesting stuff... I have always suspected a Judeo-Persian conspiracy to corrupt the deen of Allah to a point where it is no longer recognizable as what Muhammad (P) really preached.
I have one comment I'd like to make concerning the Roman vs. Persian wars.
The Quranic passage mentions a battle that took place in "adna'l ardh"
Can you explain what is the logic behind translating "adna" as "LOWEST"??
Is it really saying "The lowest point of the earth"? Or is it actually "the NEAREST.
point"??To my knowlegde, "adna" = close or near. For example, "Near East" = Sharq adna.
Far East = Sharq Aqsa. So, adna is the opposite of Aqsa.In Surat Najm ("The Star", it describes a vision in which Muhammad(P) saw the mala'ka of revelation (Jibreel) appear to him over a tree. The ayah is saying that Jibreel came near to him, and uses the word "dana" , which means "to come close".
If the Quran meant to say "lowest point" it would have said "ASFAL'l ardh" , not "adna".
What do you think??
i am agree. I see no reason to consider adna as lowest.
the first meaning of arabic word adna is nearest.so it looks like if GOD wanted to indicate us that the battle discussed in the verses was very near from the place where was Muhammad.
more than a geographic indication, it is possible that this verse is also a big historical indication.
the verse points clearly to a moment where rums was already defeated and predicts that they will be soon winner again.There is not much verses in quran that are pointing towards "mondial events".
These verses are saying that revelation has occured in year 614.The big question is Was quran revealed one shot or gradually ?
if one shot, the good year is then 614.Returning to my old interpretation that laylatou el qadar is autum equinoxe (qadr= equilibrated measure between day length and night lenth), we would even have precise date. Confronting this with ayman interpretation that shahr means Full moon, we can notice that 23 september 614 was a full moon night.
The question Was quran revealed one shot or gradually ?
has also a big importance in interpretation of quran.
Notice that one shot revelation shut down arguments about "asbab nouzoul" (reasons for revelation) and arguments based on chronological order of revelation (naskh wa mansoukh).What do you think brother Pazuzu ? one shot or gradually ?
Peace
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salaam
in addition to verses of Tanzil laylatou el qadr and shar ramadhan i will notice the use of word tanzil in Quran
17-106
20-4
25-25
26-192
32-2
36-5
39-1
40-2
41-2
41-42
45-2
46-2
56-80
69-43
76-2325-25 seems to indicate Tanzil is one shot.
it would be a miracle. What's the problem then ?
Is it a problem to consider that Muhammad had already responses to events that occurred after the revelation and that he used Quran as we use it now face to particular events ?
Notice also 17-106 that seems to indicate that fragmention is only for recitation and is not related to tanzilHow can we explain the fact, for example, that Khadija, as the only wife during 9 alleaged years of revelation was never mentionned ?
is it possible that gradual revelation during a long period was a lie ?
Peace
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Salaam noshirk....
Sometimes, I am inclined to think that "tanzeel" = 1 shot revelation. However, when I read something along the lines of
{Allah has heard the woman who has argued with you regarding her husband, and she complained to Allah. And Allah hears the argument between you. Allah is Hearer, Seer}...
I start having doubts. How could the above ayah have been part of the whole "package" of the tanzeel before the event (the argument) ever happened?
There is one scholar, by the name of Muhammad Shahrour, whose view is that the revelation to Muhammad consisted of two parts
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The part that deals with universal truths and laws + the stories of the past nations + the signs in nature. This part he calls it "al-Qur'an"
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The part that deals with the civil laws and moral conduct, and lays down the foundations of establishing the Islamic state + how Muhammad dealt with his wives and solved the problems of his society. This part he calls it "al-Kitab"
He says the first part was a 1 shot tanzeel, where as the second part was NOT so, and depended on the circumstances.
I haven't read his entire book yet, but eventually, I will...
If this is true, then there are indeed "asbab nuzul". However, those asbab are easily deduced from the Quranic passages themselves, and you do not need to look anywhere else to find them. For example, if you go back to Surah 58, and read onwards (ayahs 2,3, and 4), you will immediately understand what the opening ayah was talking about A woman had apparently complained to Muhammad about her husband having sworn an oath to estrange her (consider her as if she was his mother - you get the picture). So basically Allah is directing the believers - in general - what they have to pay when they retract their oaths.
That's all we need to know, and the "sabab" is very clear from the passage itself.
If you consult Bukahri to know the "sabab", it will only tell you what the woman's name was and how long her husband's beard was (the Judeo-Persian scum liked those kinds of details). It doesn't add anything of importance.
Anyway, I think this is a serious subject that needs to be looked into some more.
Peace...
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Salaam
Thank you brother Pazuzu.
I am happy to see another person who is ready to question a big dogma like this.In science, we are used to make hypothesis and try to see if facts fits.
So, let?s make this hypothesis
Quran Was revealed One Shot.
And let see where are the problems.First, we have to notice that this hypothesis fits more with an eternal message for humanity that is independent of circumstantial events.
The main problem that this hypothesis have to surmount is the numerous verses like the one you mentioned (58-1) or that begin with the term ? ?? (they ask you).
All verses using the term (Yass?a?lounaka)(2-189,2-215,2-217,2-219,2-220,2-222,5-4,7-187,8-1,17-85,18-83,20-105,79-42) are dealing with natural and classical religious subjects and questions.
For most of them, it is even quite impossible for a great reading to avoid these questions.
So, even if there was not a questioner, Quran, I think, would have responded to it.
We can notice also the conjugation of ?Yass?a?lounaka?. It is a present form that could indicates a recurrent question.Since we all agree that Quran is a miracle, one shot hypothesis leads automatically to the deduction that God anticipated that that questions would be questioned (it is a deduction and not a second hypothesis). It is not a strange deduction since God knows the future (ghayb). It would even be a proof for that feature for earlier Muslims. It is quite a necessary proof.
I have some difficulties to image the Rassool saying
?Sorry, I have no answer to your question, please wait for a revelation and come back tomorrow?.
I think that revelation would have been much more impressive on earlier Muslims if the response was already given to the rassool. It would have demonstrated the power of ?the book? to answer all what we need in religion. It is the ?Quranist Claim?. .
It would even be a great demonstration and a kind of miracle if Rassool have answered to all religious questions with already known verses (what a beautiful answer to hadithers and what a beautiful confirmation of the pretension of Hadiths to replace Quran).We have to notice also, that Quran, at that times, was not printed in many copies. So, in the beginning, only Muhammad was having the Quran totally in mind.
We can imagine thus that ?asbab ol nouzoul? were in fact only occasions for teaching, remembering and demonstrating power of Quran.With no hypocrisy, I ask myself sometimes if I would have believed that Muhammad is a rassool if I was in front of him and I saw him taking 23 years to reveal the book or Hesitating or responding to questions after some days
If Quran is the Muhammad?s Miracle, how could first muslims have believed in him in the beginning if he had only few verses in his hands ?Verses that seem to confirm gradual revelation and ?Asbab Nozoul theory? have to be particularly studied.
Let?s go back, for example, to verse 58-1
581 God has heard the woman who has argued with you regarding her husband, and she complained to God. And God hears the argument between you. God is Hearer, Seer.I think it is a very good example for discussing the one shot hypothesis. Reality can be so different from the first impression
One shot revelation hypothesis would leads to these possible explanations
- Seeing Women complaining about husbands is a frequent event. Probably, there was not only one and event I would have anticipated this. No need to know even future.
- GOD wants to indicate to Muslim women that he heards their complaints, prepared a verse for this, and Muhammad used this verse at each occasion.
- Muhammad received the complaint before his designation as ?rassool? by GOD (perhaps there was a group of believers before revelation and I can?t imagine Muhammad becoming monotheist only when Jibril spoke to him for the first time)
It is also interesting to notice the conjugation of verbs in verse 58-1.
God has heard Past form
Women that argues with you and are complaining (present form in Arabic)
God Hears the argument between you Present formSo, using conjugation, we can argue that Muhammad recited the verse while he was in the conversation with the women.
Gradual hypothesis would then leads to conclusion that Muhammad has told to the women ?Moment Please, I am receiving now a quranic verse as answer for your case?.
So, even with 58-1, I prefer one shot revelation.Let?s now imagine the case were the women of 58-1 never quarrelled with her husband or quarrelled and never complained to rassol. ?Asbab nouzoul? and gradual hypothesis would lead to the conclusion that verses 58-2, 58-3 and 58-4 would have never been revealed and that the laws in them would not have never been promulgated.
?Asbab nouzoul? theory is quite absurd in this case.Really, brother Pazuzu, I agree with you that we have to think more about this subject. Both ?one shot? and ?gradual? revelation are at ?theory? stage.
Concerning Muhammad Shahrour, i don?t like very much his theory even if it seems logical. I absolutely don?t like the distinction between Quran and Kitab.
Peace
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salaam
if we see the bismillah at beginning of each sourate
"In name of GOD..." means that Rassool is a messenger who reads a message from his sender, GOD.Sourate 9 seems to be the more circumstantial sourate. Surprisingly, it doesn't begin with the bismillah and begin with a common declaration of GOD and His messenger.
91 A revocation is made by God and His messenger to those with whom you have made a pledge from among the polytheists.Coincidence ? Is there a Hidden meaning ?
Peace
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Salam Bro...
How do you explain this one
{O you prophet, why do you make unlawful what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking to please your wives? Allah is Forgiver, Merciful}...
When was this revealed, and in what circumstances..
Let's discuss..
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Salam Pazuzu
It is difficult question
I remind you that the gradual explanation has also to explain difficult verses like the tanzil night of Qadar and Shar ramadhan.The scientific method is to put an hypothesis and see if we can explain confirmed facts.
Now, the hypothesis is One shot revelation.
And the question is how to explain 661Explanation 1 The more general
The quran was revealed before the event.God knows the future and God anticipated the fault of prophet.
After the fault has occurred, the verse was used to- to show prophet that even him can make mistakes and contradicts sometimes quran while there is clear verses in quran. Also us can do mistakes relative to quran after he was revealed.
- to prove again and again that he knows future
- to teach and remember that when nabi is not a rassool then he don?t have the right to create new haram.
-to teach and remember that quran is complete and can be used in many circumstances.
Notice that Arabic version use the present tense (lima touharrimou). Witch can mean a recurrent action (inadapted with context) or revelation during the action of fault.
If fault was in past relative to revelation, past tense (lima harramta) would be more adapted.Explanation 2 the quran was revealed after the event.
More difficult.
We can argue for example that the term nabi (and not rassool) is used to show that revelation has not yet occurred. Contacts beween God and Nabi has already occurred long before the famous night of qadar.
This would mean that Nabi had already many wifes when he became rassol. Hadith would have lied to us even in this field.
I know that my explanations are not usual, quite delirious.
However they are possible and then 66-1 cannot be used as proof of gradual revelation.Notice also that explanation 1 is quite always possible. This is allowed by the fact that GOD knows ghayb. We cannot do such thing with another writer. This can help us to play with time and consider that quran can illustrate events that has not yet occurred. We can always claim that the aim of this quranic feature is to teach how Quran can be used by a muslim during his life and how quran is powerful.
It is not very honest intellectually but it works.I have to mention that i am not myself convinced by what i wrote.
Peace
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really i don't know what to think
I understand why muhammad shahrour felt obliged to distinguish two parts in the revelation.This question has to be studied more.
i have the intuition that revelation is one shot but i lack convincing argumentation.
However, with the argument "GOD knows the future" we can quite explain every thingsalaam
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25.32 Those who reject Faith say "Why is not the Qur'an revealed to him all at once? Thus (is it revealed), that We may strengthen thy heart thereby, and We have rehearsed it to thee in slow, well-arranged stages, gradually. hmm
concerning Kitab (The Book )and Quran (this Book), Quran is obviously this book, The Book (IMHO) is the whole thing from the original revelation to Moses to this book, Quran. ------- People of The Book hmm
Quran is the reminder and confirmation and completion of the message, making this whole thing The Message, The Book.
Thoughts ??
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salam sister Ayisha,
are there 2 threads mixed up here? I click on One Shot or Gradual and get that and the zoroastrianism one
Sorry sister, but the discussion derived and i changed manually the title of my replies as i did here.
25.32 Those who reject Faith say "Why is not the Qur'an revealed to him all at once? Thus (is it revealed), that We may strengthen thy heart thereby, and We have rehearsed it to thee in slow, well-arranged stages, gradually. hmm
concerning Kitab (The Book )and Quran (this Book), Quran is obviously this book, The Book (IMHO) is the whole thing from the original revelation to Moses to this book, Quran. ------- People of The Book hmm
Quran is the reminder and confirmation and completion of the message, making this whole thing The Message, The Book.
I agree with this. However, Quran corrects Torah and what remained from other messengers. Quran and other revelations are not equals for me. Differences are proofs of humans change in old revelations since we know that God revealed to Muhammad what he revealed to messengers before him
25.32 Those who reject Faith say "Why is not the Qur'an revealed to him all at once? Thus (is it revealed), that We may strengthen thy heart thereby, and We have rehearsed it to thee in slow, well-arranged stages, gradually. hmm
Thank you for reminding me this verse. Sheytan made me forget it. Or perhaps, who knows, it is God who made me forget it to make me study more the one shot hypothesis.
It is really clear from this verse that Quran was not revealed one shot?..to humans.
?Scholars? are not all agree in the One shot/gradual Debate.
Some of them says it was revealed one shot first (in laylatou el Qadr and shahr ramadan) and then gradually after. There is even hadiths saying that.Let?s see monotheist traduction
2532 And those who rejected said "If only the Qur'an was sent down to him in one go!" It was done as such so We could strengthen your heart with it, and We arranged it accordingly.And original verse
First we have to understand more the term ?rattalnahou? and ?Tartilan?
( ب
.
.
.
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.So tartil can be also interpreted as ? arrangement ?.
Please read this article http//free-minds.org/how-study-quran who explain that tartil is a method to study quran
Definitively, it doesn?t mean singing Quran like imams do actually.Definitively, one shot hypothesis is false.
Let?s study, in the light of 25-32, this modified hypothesis
Quran revealed one shot only to Muhammad laylatou el qadr and gradually to muslims according to an arrangement fitted to circumstances.
Pleace notice that I am not the one who invented this hypothesisThus, revelation to earliers muslims was done gradually according to circumstances. Asbab nouzoul are not asbab (reasons) but only circumstances to help Muhammad teach Quran gradually by examples.
It is quite exactly what the next verse is saying
2533 And for every example they come to you with, We bring you the truth and the best explanation.Please note that it is not said, to every example they come to you with, we will bring you by the night after or something else, the best explanation. The ?miracle? would be more impressive if the verse was already available and used immediately people came with an example, with no waiting to an eventual futher revelation. So, Quran would be the only true sunna left by Muhammad and his true Hadith. Muhammad would have responded to ?examples? with the miraculous Quran and not with his own ?hadiths?.
The reason invocated by 2532 is clear ! " It was done as such so We could strengthen your heart with it.
What does mean strengthen the heart of prophet ? Does that mean he would have believed less in God if he received the book one shot ? I can?t believe in that. We all received the book one shot in our era. Does that mean that we have reason to have our heart not strengthened ?
So the ?strengthen your heart with it? argument can be understood as some thing like this
?we will show you, during all the remaining period, that quran is complete and that you can respond with it to all religious events that you will encounter. Doing so, we will show you the power of the book you received and strengthen your heart relative to his theological power. We will remind you, when needed, the verses that fit the case you are encountering, and it would be a circumstance to show to your compagnions that your God knows the future, that he has given to you a response before the question, that his book deal with every religious situation?.Please, notice that I am not saying that what I am saying is the true. I am only studying hypothesis and I am the first one who needs to be convinced.
Totally gradual Hypothesis is still possible but it have also its problems.As you see sister, we are now deriving towards another thread, Quran is sunna, Quran is the Hadiths. Muhammad preached and teached islam with Quran and not with his own hadiths.
should I see a psychiatrist ?Peace
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Peace noshirk.
I tend to agree with RK s explanation
Those who disbelieved said, "Why did not the Quran come through him all at once?" We have released it to you gradually, in order to fix it in your memory. We have recited it in a specific sequence.
When Mohammed was taken during the night " leilat el Kadr" .The Qoran was put in his memory all at once. Then during the 23 years of revelations it was slowly released so he can preach/live/lead using GOD s slowly released verses with the help of Angel Gabriel.
" Ratalnahu tartilan" means it was GOD who choose to release it in a special sequence, then arrange it afterwards in the chapters we have now.
You are responsible to check all information.
Peace. -
peace good logic
it seems like if you are more agree with me than with RK
your reply "The Qoran was put in his memory all at once" seems to indicate that you don't accept the "We have released it to you gradually" hypothesis
and the "in order to fix it in your memory" explanationSalaam