Who is Mister Israel and who is his descent?

noshirk

Peace

Let?s go for another amazing theory

Mister Israel was a guy on the ship of Noah.
172 And We gave Moses the Book and We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel "Do not believe in any besides Me."
173 The progeny of who we carried with Noah, he was a thankful servant.

And he was a big lier who invented many religious things in the name of God
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."

So Mister Israel was the first ?Cheikh? who invented lies about God.

Old testamed made Israel=Jacob after a mysterious battle of Jacob with a mysterious guy (perhaps god or perhaps an angel) who named Jacob Israel.

Children of Israel succeded then to make their ancestor a prophet in place of a true prophet.

Archeological research find nothing of existence of bani Israel tribes in Israel.
10 of the 12 tribes of Israel are lost. No trace of them anywhere.

However, we know from quran that there was many bani Israel who were arguig with prophet Muhammad. Many jewish tribes were there.
I think we found the lost tribes.

According to Israeli historian, Shlomo Sands, the True descent of the two not lost tribes of Bani Israel are the now called Palestinians and were converted to islam.

So the only still remaining question is then
Who are are the now called jews Bani Israel ?

History tell us that their big majority is a descent of Khazarian people (turkish origin).
See http//www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story800.html

Let?s resume
1- Arabs are the true Bani Israel.
2- They are invaded by false Bani Israel.
3- Only the More stupid of the false Bani Israel are in Israel. They are the poorest jews in the world. At the lower stage in jews citizens in Israels, we find the Yemenite jews and falachas who represent the last true bani israels still jews.
4- The Majority of true Bani Israel still continuing lying about God and his messengers as nowadays Arabs Muslims.
5- The True Bani Israel are now damning the name of their ancestor and are rejecting him.

997 The Aarabs are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the boundaries of what God has sent down upon His messenger. God is Knower, Wise.

830 ?. and God is the best of plotters.

Peace and sorry for sincere Arabs

good_logic

Peace all.

Few months ago I stared this amazing dream!

I dreamt I took this journey . I arrived to a place similar to " earth". My brain was on hold. Some sort of reprogramming was taking place inside my head! .I also joined a forum where people had this weird /wonderful /crazy ideas

-Muslim sunnis/chiites/other sects were not " Real Muslims", Religion is not really a religion, Every religion is made up

-Salat rituals were not what " Sala/salah/salat" was meant to be!/ ,You can also pray 2/3/5/... or whatever you want Or don t pray.

-Hajj is not travelling to an idolatress stone, but Commitment/other place/ debate/ ...

-Zakat is not 2,5% of your income to the poor, It is -well it means different things to different people. Give from what you love to others!

-Sex before marriage/ after marriage. Words, MMA s,... are still being debated.It depends on "nouns, Pronouns, verbs, synonyms, subject, abject,...

Inheritance! It does not add up to 1! It depends on one son, two sister, an aunt, a mother, a husband, other members, debts...
Qoran has a proof? 19 miracle! 19 debatable! 19 delusion! What have numbers got to do with words?...

-Messengers, not messengers, idols, not idols, greats, who...

-Systems, Jews, Arabs, America, Europe,....

Etc,etc,etc....

To be honest I do not want to wake up.

However I am hearing now that " Beni Israel" are not really " Beni Israel"

Help! Help! Who am I?

Peace.

noshirk

Help! Help! Who am I?

you forgot the first pillar of islam, the so called Shahada.
It is clearly a false testimony of people who saw nothing

however your question is very easy.
we are nothing and only God is true

you were in the dream and you just entered reality
reality is when you reject human inventions and human bullshits and rediscover God creation

Peace

cleanfox5982

Peace

And he was a big lier who invented many religious things in the name of God
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."

So Mister Israel was the first ?Cheikh? who invented lies about God.

Salam ,

Excuse me brother , first Israel was not on the ship of Noah/Nuh but among the progeny of those who was carried with Nuh/ Noah ,

Second i don't know how can you claim such things saying he was a big lier and the Quran is saying he was a Thinkfull servant ?

The verse you mention is about a repudiation question

3-93 All food was lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel had made unlawful to himself before the Torah was revealed. Say, , "So bring the Torah and recite it, if you should be truthful."

3-93
3-94

The verse is talking about a claim that has been said by sombody ( surely among his children ) that all food was lawlful to the children of isreal except what isreal made unlawful to himself befor the sent of the Torah , the reply was to muhammed (p) is to say "So bring the Torah and recite it, if you should be truthful." and the verse after is saying 3-94 And whoever invents about Allah lies after that - then those are the wrongdoers.

So this claim was false Simply Because not all food was made Lawlfull to Bani Israel even before the Torah was sent down and those who are saying so are telling lies about Allah and about Israel because he never said so .

noshirk

Salaam

Excuse me brother , first Israel was not on the ship of Noah/Nuh but among the progeny of those who was carried with Nuh/ Noah ,

Thank you for your response

171 Glory be to the One who took His servant by night from the Restricted Temple to the most distant temple which We had blessed around, so that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearer, the Seer.
172 And We gave Moses the Book and We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel "Do not believe in any besides Me."
173 The progeny of those whom (of who ?) We carried with Noah, he was a thankful servant.

Sourate 17 is called Isra wich means travel. Isra and Israel seems very related and 17-1 is speaking about travel

17-2 speaks about bani Israels and 173 continues with the expression ?the progeny of who (or those) carried with Noah. It seems logical and quite natural to consider that Mister Israel, from whom Bani Israel cited in 172 is a progeny, was on the boat of 172

If Israel was not on the boat then you have a problem. Who is Mister Israel ?
So you would not be able to respond to this question with quran. You should then accept Torah theory and Hadith Theory that Israel was Jacob. Israel would then be a progeny of Abraham and contradicts your recent post.

Second i don't know how can you claim such things saying he was a big lier and the Quran is saying he was a Thinkfull servant ?

With no doubt, Noah was a thankful servant of GOD.
You are rejecting the fact that Israel on the boat while considering he was related to the expression thankful servant. Strange!

However, Israel was the Thankful servant of verse could have been a plausible hypothesis.
In the Quran, Bani Israel is the symbol of Shirk. God send many prophets to them, and each time, their returned on their heels and invented lies.
It is plausible then to consider Mister Israel from the same wood as his progeny. History of Bani Israel can leads us to doubt that Israel is concerned with the expression ?thankful servant? while there is an obvious ?thankful servant? cited by name in the verse

3-93 All food was lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel had made unlawful to himself before the Torah was revealed. Say, , "So bring the Torah and recite it, if you should be truthful."

3-93
3-94

The verse is talking about a claim that has been said by sombody ( surely among his children ) that all food was lawlful to the children of isreal except what isreal made unlawful to himself befor the sent of the Torah

I don?t see what allows you to say that. Where did you see ?the somebody? who is claiming that.. The repudiation question is not obvious and there is not mention such as ?they said?, very recurrent in Quran.

However, you can easily notice that prohibition dietary in Judaism is very complex (http//www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm) with no evident reasons. Most of prohibitions are not retained for muslims wich confirms that their origin is not GOD.
So who invented them and why they are in judaim ?

If we see in verse 3-93 an affirmation and not a repudiary question, we have an explanation for dietary foods for jewishs. It was a punition for Bani Israel for what Mister Israel invented
The verse 3-94 speaks about who invented lies and that, after this, are wicked. The plural is used and ?the somebody? are since numerous and there is an after after their lies.

So, seeing a repudiary question (I don?t want to engage in linguitstic debate) transform a meaningful verse in a meaningless story of response to an unknown liar.
It also annulates possible responses of Quran (who is mister israel ? why jewish dietary so complex ?) and let question unresponded.

Bani Israel are, I think, now in majority between arab-muslims. They are continuing their ancestral work in the islam and are now imams and Cheikhs. It is my belief.

Peace

Ayisha

Peace all.

Few months ago I stared this amazing dream!

I dreamt I took this journey . I arrived to a place similar to " earth". My brain was on hold. Some sort of reprogramming was taking place inside my head! .I also joined a forum where people had this weird /wonderful /crazy ideas

-Muslim sunnis/chiites/other sects were not " Real Muslims", Religion is not really a religion, Every religion is made up

-Salat rituals were not what " Sala/salah/salat" was meant to be!/ ,You can also pray 2/3/5/... or whatever you want Or don t pray.

-Hajj is not travelling to an idolatress stone, but Commitment/other place/ debate/ ...

-Zakat is not 2,5% of your income to the poor, It is -well it means different things to different people. Give from what you love to others!

-Sex before marriage/ after marriage. Words, MMA s,... are still being debated.It depends on "nouns, Pronouns, verbs, synonyms, subject, abject,...

Inheritance! It does not add up to 1! It depends on one son, two sister, an aunt, a mother, a husband, other members, debts...
Qoran has a proof? 19 miracle! 19 debatable! 19 delusion! What have numbers got to do with words?...

-Messengers, not messengers, idols, not idols, greats, who...

-Systems, Jews, Arabs, America, Europe,....

Etc,etc,etc....

To be honest I do not want to wake up.

However I am hearing now that " Beni Israel" are not really " Beni Israel"

Help! Help! Who am I?

Peace.

Fear not, I just landed on your planet jedi

Ayisha

Salaam
Thank you for your response

171 Glory be to the One who took His servant by night from the Restricted Temple to the most distant temple which We had blessed around, so that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearer, the Seer.
172 And We gave Moses the Book and We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel "Do not believe in any besides Me."
173 The progeny of those whom (of who ?) We carried with Noah, he was a thankful servant.

Sourate 17 is called Isra wich means travel. Isra and Israel seems very related and 17-1 is speaking about travel

17-2 speaks about bani Israels and 173 continues with the expression ?the progeny of who (or those) carried with Noah. It seems logical and quite natural to consider that Mister Israel, from whom Bani Israel cited in 172 is a progeny, was on the boat of 172

If Israel was not on the boat then you have a problem. Who is Mister Israel ?

Israel, or Jacob, was the progeny of (descendant of) those who were on the boat. Jacob was the grandson of Abraham, who came after Noah and his boat. Between Noah and Abraham were Shem, Arphaxad, Shelah, Eber, Peleg, Reu, Serug, Nahor, Terah, Abram (Abraham) then Ishmael and Isaac were the sons of Abraham and Isaacs sons were Jacob (Israel) and Esau who were twins.

So you would not be able to respond to this question with quran. You should then accept Torah theory and Hadith Theory that Israel was Jacob. Israel would then be a progeny of Abraham and contradicts your recent post.
Allah quite clearly tells you He sent the Torah and also explains where the changes are, by their tongues. The Torah, or Law of Moses are the first 5 books of the OT, the rest of the OT added to that lot make up the Tanakh......or written Torah according to the Jews NOW, add the hadith of Moses, or the Oral Torah (by their tongues) gives you the Talmud, which is what the Jews go by, so you see all that was added to make the religion what they wanted, just like adding hadith, but the Torah, the LAW is still there as it was in the beginning of the 7th century when God confirmed it to Muhammed, and we make no distinction (which applies to the books as well as the messengers)

With no doubt, Noah was a thankful servant of GOD.
You are rejecting the fact that Israel on the boat while considering he was related to the expression thankful servant. Strange!

However, Israel was the Thankful servant of verse could have been a plausible hypothesis.

Noah was the thankful servant, he and his family were saved by God. Israel was not on the boat as he wasn't born for a long time yet, nor was Abraham, they were the progeny of those on the boat, the descendants.

In the Quran, Bani Israel is the symbol of Shirk. God send many prophets to them, and each time, their returned on their heels and invented lies.
It is plausible then to consider Mister Israel from the same wood as his progeny. History of Bani Israel can leads us to doubt that Israel is concerned with the expression ?thankful servant? while there is an obvious ?thankful servant? cited by name in the verse
So by that logic we could say the same about Muhammed as his progeny are doing the same?

I don?t see what allows you to say that. Where did you see ?the somebody? who is claiming that.. The repudiation question is not obvious and there is not mention such as ?they said?, very recurrent in Quran.

However, you can easily notice that prohibition dietary in Judaism is very complex (http//www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm) with no evident reasons. Most of prohibitions are not retained for muslims wich confirms that their origin is not GOD.
So who invented them and why they are in judaim ?

If we see in verse 3-93 an affirmation and not a repudiary question, we have an explanation for dietary foods for jewishs. It was a punition for Bani Israel for what Mister Israel invented

The page you gave here for dietary requirements tells you the reason, because the Torah (Law of Moses) says so. If you read Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 you will see what is forbidden, then read the page you gave from 'General Rules' onwards you can clearly see how they have interpreted it and added to it, you can also see it's more detailed than Quran prohibited foods but the same...... and 5.1 "O ye who believe! fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals, with the exceptions named But animals of the chase are forbidden while ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb for Allah doth command according to His will and plan." Those 4 footed animals are named in the Torah, the following verses of chapter 5 of Quran do not name them but remind of some of the things in Lev 11 and Deut 14. You can also eat the food of the people of the book, so why give you prohibitions in Quran then tell you you can eat the food of the people of the book if there were no prohibitions placed on them in the first place?

The verse 3-94 speaks about who invented lies and that, after this, are wicked. The plural is used and ?the somebody? are since numerous and there is an after after their lies.

So, seeing a repudiary question (I don?t want to engage in linguitstic debate) transform a meaningful verse in a meaningless story of response to an unknown liar.
It also annulates possible responses of Quran (who is mister israel ? why jewish dietary so complex ?) and let question unresponded.

Bani Israel are, I think, now in majority between arab-muslims. They are continuing their ancestral work in the islam and are now imams and Cheikhs. It is my belief.

Peace

The 'children of Israel' already had their own laws before the law of Moses, they appear to have made their own restrictions on food and everything else and KEPT this after the law of Moses as they added to the law as I said above. Moses came after Israel (Jacob) and was of the tribe of Levi, Levi was a son of Israel (Jacob) and there were a lot more sons too, one being Joseph who lived in Egypt, this story is in Quran, chapter 12 if I'm not mistaken......you can read it all in Genesis too. So it wasn't 'Mr Israel' who was a liar, Jacob was a prophet of God and is mentioned as such many times in Quran. If you are having difficulty understanding much of what Quran is reminding you of then it might be wise to read one of the other previous books God tells you he sent, the Torah.

Ayisha

Possible restriction not given by God but by Jacob (possibly, or the children of Jacob (Israel)) prior to the Law of Moses

Gen 32 31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob?s hip was touched near the tendon.

Quran 3.93 All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself (himself if you wish << added by me), before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."

If you bring the Law of Moses you will see that is giving the restrictions IN it, so those who say there were restrictions before it are wrong and would see that if they brought The Law (Torah) and studied it.

3.94 If any, after this, invent a lie and attribute it to Allah, they are indeed unjust wrong-doers.

WARNING, check with the revelationS of God and only God before ANYONE attributes something to God, a very clear warning for the hadithists and the rest who flop about this is haram that is haram.............or call God or His prophets liars peace

good_logic

Peace Ayisha.

Welcome to planet earth sister.

Please do not wake me up. The " dream", may it long continue!

Talking of dreams reminds me of Joseph, son of Jacob ( Israel), he helped his family settle in the land of Pharaoh.

Moses was from " Beni-Israel" . He rescued them from " Misr" and Pharaoh( a tyrant that enslaved them, unlike the other ruler who gave Joseph the job of " Chancellor running the economy!"...Follow the trail and the false religions, they will bring you up to our day! Judaism has gone by, transformed by men; Christianity has gone by, transformed by men; Islam has gone by ,transformed by men. And all GOD asked them was to Serve Him devoting all their life/system to Him Alone!.

Do not worry sister, the trumpet will sound, it will wakes us all up. We will rise up and go to our Lord. He will tells us all" that we dispute".
Peace.

noshirk

Salam ayisha

I ask you to forgive my poor English and to be comphensive.

Israel, or Jacob, was the progeny of (descendant of) those who were on the boat. Jacob was the grandson of Abraham, who came after Noah and his boat. Between Noah and Abraham were Shem, Arphaxad, Shelah, Eber, Peleg, Reu, Serug, Nahor, Terah, Abram (Abraham) then Ishmael and Isaac were the sons of Abraham and Isaacs sons were Jacob (Israel) and Esau who were twins.

How can you prove that with words of God ?

Allah quite clearly tells you He sent the Torah and also explains where the changes are, by their tongues. The Torah, or Law of Moses are the first 5 books of the OT, the rest of the OT added to that lot make up the Tanakh......or written Torah according to the Jews NOW, add the hadith of Moses, or the Oral Torah (by their tongues) gives you the Talmud, which is what the Jews go by, so you see all that was added to make the religion what they wanted, just like adding hadith, but the Torah, the LAW is still there as it was in the beginning of the 7th century when God confirmed it to Muhammed, and we make no distinction (which applies to the books as well as the messengers)

Does that mean that we have to take torah as it is?
Torah is not like Quran. Human hands in torah are visible even for linguists and scientist who studied it.
I agree that Torah is part of the book. However, we have to read it with great caution since we know that there are human modifications, adding and deleting. So, I think that what remains in torah after Quran attack, science attack, and history attack can be considered as true part of the book. Such attacks are a duty, I think, for muslims.

Noah was the thankful servant, he and his family were saved by God. Israel was not on the boat as he wasn't born for a long time yet, nor was Abraham, they were the progeny of those on the boat, the descendants.

Israel was on the boat for me. Isra name, and verse 17-1 to 17-3 seems clear to me.
You can?t prove that Mister Israel in only a progeny of whose were on the boat and you can?t prove that he is Jacob.

So by that logic we could say the same about Muhammed as his progeny are doing the same?

Why not ? But First, how can we prove that Muhammad left a progeny alive to nowadays ?

The page you gave here for dietary requirements tells you the reason, because the Torah (Law of Moses) says so. If you read Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 you will see what is forbidden, then read the page you gave from 'General Rules' onwards you can clearly see how they have interpreted it and added to it, you can also see it's more detailed than Quran prohibited foods but the same...... and 5.1 "O ye who believe! fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals, with the exceptions named But animals of the chase are forbidden while ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb for Allah doth command according to His will and plan." Those 4 footed animals are named in the Torah, the following verses of chapter 5 of Quran do not name them but remind of some of the things in Lev 11 and Deut 14. You can also eat the food of the people of the book, so why give you prohibitions in Quran then tell you you can eat the food of the people of the book if there were no prohibitions placed on them in the first place?

The 'children of Israel' already had their own laws before the law of Moses, they appear to have made their own restrictions on food and everything else and KEPT this after the law of Moses as they added to the law as I said above. Moses came after Israel (Jacob) and was of the tribe of Levi, Levi was a son of Israel (Jacob) and there were a lot more sons too, one being Joseph who lived in Egypt, this story is in Quran, chapter 12 if I'm not mistaken......you can read it all in Genesis too. So it wasn't 'Mr Israel' who was a liar, Jacob was a prophet of God and is mentioned as such many times in Quran. If you are having difficulty understanding much of what Quran is reminding you of then it might be wise to read one of the other previous books God tells you he sent, the Torah.

Sorry but i am not expert in judaism and i can't discuss more these points than i made. However the expression in 393 is clear. Israel forbade things for himself. For himself mean not from God. Forbidding things by ourselves in religion is a forbidden act in islam and it is difficult for me to believe that Jacob made such a thing. However, I can easily admit that the ancestor of false ?scientists? proclaiming ?science, Mister Israel, made such a thing since they still do the same things nowadays.

Even if I can be wrong, I think that considering that the lineage of Israel is the lineage of false prophets jealous from the true lineage is full of teachings.
I am interested in proofs proving I am wrong

Salaam.

Ayisha

Salam ayisha

I ask you to forgive my poor English and to be comphensive.

How can you prove that with words of God ?

It's in Genesis, first book of the Torah. The fact you don't think that is anything to do with God who claims it as His is the problem, not the fact it's there.

Does that mean that we have to take torah as it is?
Torah is not like Quran. Human hands in torah are visible even for linguists and scientist who studied it.
I agree that Torah is part of the book. However, we have to read it with great caution since we know that there are human modifications, adding and deleting. So, I think that what remains in torah after Quran attack, science attack, and history attack can be considered as true part of the book. Such attacks are a duty, I think, for muslims.
Why not even look at the Torah? If God shoved it under your nose and said this is from me written by men I inspired would you still turn away? That is what He has done by confirming it in Quran. The fact the translations based on thousands years old language may not give it the meaning you expect doesn't make it less from God than translations of Quran do, how you you know that hasn't been tampered with as according to history it wasn't written down and compiled into the one we have now until Uthman was it? If you studied and learnt Hebrew would you think differently? Torah is thousands of years old, not 1400, thousands, the language was totally different as were the translations we read from, hence new updated translations all trying to translate words that don't translate well, just like Quran. FACT is that many of the confirmations in Quran ARE in the Torah we have, and did have 1400 years ago when God confirmed them. The difference with Quran is that it is the EXACT words of God as spoken to Muhammed by a messenger of God, Gabriel. The Torah may or may not be the EXACT words of God, I don't speak Hebrew so I'm not sure but I do know there are tons of references in Quran to things in it.

Israel was on the boat for me. Isra name, and verse 17-1 to 17-3 seems clear to me.

171 Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

172 We gave Moses the Book, and made it a Guide to the Children of Israel, (commanding) "Take not other than Me as Disposer of (your) affairs."

173 O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful.

Where is that clear to you? What IS clear is that Moses was given the Law (Torah) which you claim isn't the same one, nowhere is God telling you NOT to look at it for the story HE is confirming here. Those that sprung from those in the Ark are the descendants of those in the Ark, it's talking about the offspring, the descendants of Noah. Moses was given the Book as a guide for the Children of Israel, and Moses wasn't on the boat either.

You can?t prove that Mister Israel in only a progeny of whose were on the boat and you can?t prove that he is Jacob.
Why not ?
It's in the verses you said are clear to you that Mr Israel was on the boat.... although it says children of Israel, you find that was Prophet Jacob by looking in the Torah that God is talking about he gave to Moses.......Can you prove Mr Israel was on the boat? No, not even by Quran and nothing else as it clearly says descendants of those on the boat and that God gave Moses the book as a guide for the Children of Israel.........again Moses was not on the boat either.

But First, how can we prove that Muhammad left a progeny alive to nowadays ?
I was referring to the Muslims, the ummah, not necessarily his offspring. Those people that are talked about in 25.30 Then the Messenger will say "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."

Sorry but i am not expert in judaism and i can't discuss more these points than i made. However the expression in 393 is clear. Israel forbade things for himself. For himself mean not from God. Forbidding things by ourselves in religion is a forbidden act in islam and it is difficult for me to believe that Jacob made such a thing. However, I can easily admit that the ancestor of false ?scientists? proclaiming ?science, Mister Israel, made such a thing since they still do the same things nowadays.

So God has not told me that chocolate is haram and if I forbid myself from eating any I am wrong? Did God say that Israel forbid everyone as part of the religion? NO, he forbid himself something that God hadn't forbid or if we take the other translation 'itself' then the nation Isreal forbid itself before the Torah was revealed. God is not actually saying it was wrong is He?? He is saying all things were halal except what they forbid for themselves/himself.

It is difficult for you to believe what God has told you happened or it's difficult for you to believe Jacob was Israel? You find no problem believing in Abraham do you? His name was Abram and God changed his name to Abraham in the same way. The things that happened thousands of years ago to a people completely different from what we know now may not match what you like to think of as a prophet, but that's what they were. You have no problems believing that Abraham was going to kill his son do you? then why can't you believe that God gave names to His prophets?? It doesn't make sense. Do you need God to tell confirm His previous books then go over everything in them yet again?? Aren't the references there enough for you to LOOK where you are pointed to?

What's this false scientists stuff? God is clearly saying Children of Israel. Israel was first a MAN, so was Jerusalem and TONS of other places and they named the cities after them, so now we have Israel the place. What is the confusion? The descendants of Israel/Jacob are the 'Children of Israel', it doesn't mean his sons and daughters but his descendants, just like when God talks about Children of Adam, that means ALL of mankind.

Even if I can be wrong, I think that considering that the lineage of Israel is the lineage of false prophets jealous from the true lineage is full of teachings.
Where did that come from? That is not in Quran so you are inventing things or looking at other things when you close your eyes to the book God confirms He sent. '

I am interested in proofs proving I am wrong

Salaam.
But you wont accept Torah as from God because some scholar/hadith has told you it's been changed or you have decided you don't like it's language or what it has to say in it, so good luck with that and may God guide you to see His Truth in all His Books. peace

noshirk

Salaam Ayisha

For sure, after this reply, you will ask me to go to the psychiatric.
Please, forgive again my poor English. It is only my third language.

I agree that Torah is a very important book in islam. All is important and mainly the mistakes and modifications introduced by the false lineage of prophets called Bani Israel.

Now, the story in witch Jacob made a wrestle with an unknown person/god/angel who renamed him Israel is unbelievable for me. Nowhere in Quran, Jacob was named Israel even if names of Israel and Jacob were used many times. Why they are not called sometimes Bani yaacoub if Jacob was Israel.

According to ?judaism?, the 12 tribes of bani Israel are issued from the 12 sons of Jacob.
This doesn?t match with quran who told us that separation occurred with moses.

7160 And We separated them into twelve patriarch nations; and We inspired Moses when his people wanted to drink "Strike the stone with your staff," thus twelve springs burst out of it. Each people then knew from where to drink. And We shaded them with clouds and We sent down to them manna and quail "Eat from the good things that We have provided for you." They did not wrong Us, but it was their souls that they wronged.

No trace also of a twin brother of Jacob called Esau in Quran. How can we believe that Jacob exchanged his prophecy with his brother for a plate of pottage? This also contradicts Quran who clearly mentioned that prophecy was promised to Jacob since Abraham (see 11-71).

in old testament, Moses was forbidden from promised land because he stroked the rock with a staff instead of shouting on it.
This doesn?t match with Quran who precise that Moses was asked to strike (see 2-60;7-160)

in old testament Moses was accused to have asked for a fratricidal killing after the episode of the gold calf.
This doesn?t match with Quran who precise that Moses, after that his anger was calmed, released the main guilty (20-97)

in old testament, I think there is mention that Moses killed a man intentionally.
This doesn?t match with Quran who precise that it was not and that Moses made only a punch 28-15.

If I follow old testament blindly I would be like those
3369 O you who believe, do not be like those who harmed Moses, but then God cleared him of all they said, and he was honourable before God.

So, since I don?t believe in the fake story of Jacob renamed as Israel after a wrestling with an unknown entity, I have to return back to the complete book to find the answer. The only verses that mention Israel by name is 3-93 and the other, indirectly, is 17-3. For completeness of Quran, 17-3 is necessarily speaking about Israel. If not, we have nothing about this very important guy.

Since the ark of Noah, Bani Israel are perverting words of God (please notice that I am not speaking about khazarians people now called bani Israel). The el of Israel can even be compared with the el of El Imran to oppose, amazingly, bani imran (childs of who filled that ark if use the Arabic meaning of omra and imara) to the false believers who where only bani el Isra (childs of who where only travelling with a perverted faith on the ark).

Bani Israel would be then the family of the shirk. They are believers but they believe in other things, other sayings, and manipulate words of Gods. They always claimed prophecy and invented laws as in 3-93.

Bani Israel transformed Judaism into a sect where faith is transmitted by blood from mother. How such enormous thing can be said. In fact, Bani Israel transformed faith in genealogy because they are obsessed with genealogy and are, since nowadays, as jewish or arab muslims or whatever they are now, claiming prophecy and saying that they are the elected people of GOD.

We can find many other perversions introduced by who were only clandestine on the ark of faith.
For example, after the punishment of Moses, they punished the sister of Moses, Marie, the prophetess, and made her leprous for being jealous of Moses. Even Aaron was punished. All El Imran was punsihed. Is not that jealousy ?

But we can notice that bani Israel rejected also Issa, whoever he was, when he came to them.
I will not return on the hypothesis in with I believe that Issa was in fact Yeshua Bin Nun (please, don?t be blind and read carefully that name and make a pause on each word).

Jewish Bani Israel also rejected Muhammad when he came to them. Arab Muslims Bani Israel are nowadays perverting islam. And who knows, perhaps Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Thirmidhi are part of Persian branch of Bani Israel ?

I have also to mention that some bani Israel are sincere believers. The majority not.

Yes we have to study Torah. But we shouldn?t forget that it is the Bani Israel Version, the version where Bani Israel stole the lineage of prophecy.

Is it OK for the psychiatric?

Peace

Ayisha

Salaam Ayisha

in old testament, I think there is mention that Moses killed a man intentionally.
This doesn?t match with Quran who precise that it was not and that Moses made only a punch 28-15.

Salam noshirk, I will go through the rest but this one I will do now, read carefully.

28.14 When he reached full age, and was firmly established (in life), We bestowed on him wisdom and knowledge for thus do We reward those who do good.

28.15 And he entered the city at a time when its people were not watching and he found there two men fighting,- one of his own religion, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said "This is a work of Evil (Satan) for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!"

28.16 He prayed "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!" So (Allah) forgave him for He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

28.17 He said "O my Lord! For that Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace on me, never shall I be a help to those who sin!"

28.18 So he saw the morning in the city, looking about, in a state of fear, when behold, the man who had, the day before, sought his help called aloud for his help (again). Moses said to him "Thou art truly, it is clear, a quarrelsome fellow!"

28.19 Then, when he decided to lay hold of the man who was an enemy to both of them, that man said "O Moses! Is it thy intention to slay me as thou slewest a man yesterday? Thy intention is none other than to become a powerful violent man in the land, and not to be one who sets things right!"

So Moses punched a man and the man died of it, the next day he was asked by one of the men who knew about it if he intended to kill him too as he had the man the previous day.

Now Exodus chapter 2 of the Torah

11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.

12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.

13 And when he went out the second day, behold, two men of the Hebrews strove together and he said to him that did the wrong, Wherefore smitest thou thy fellow?

14 And he said, Who made thee a prince and a judge over us? intendest thou to kill me, as thou killedst the Egyptian? And Moses feared, and said, Surely this thing is known.

The same story in both books, the wording different but the same people and event. The Quran translation is translating Arabic to English, Arabic that was written/spoken 1400 years ago, the Torah translating Hebrew to English, Hebrew that was probably over 3000 years ago.

The story is the same ENOUGH to prove to me that Torah is from the same source as Quran is and that Quran is confirming the story of Moses killing a man and not just punching him without killing him as you implied. With both books we have a translation problem, with Torah possibly an even worse problem due to the longer time period of the revelation. Minor details are irrelevant as you have to make allowances with both for the translations unless you are fluent in Classical Arabic and Hebrew.

noshirk

salam ayisha

thank you for giving the reference of the story in bible.

I never contested that moses killed a man.
But, in bible, the murder was with premeditation. This is obvious with Exodus 2-12
And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.

while, in quran

28.15 And he entered the city at a time when its people were not watching and he found there two men fighting,- one of his own religion, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said "This is a work of Evil (Satan) for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!"

it is clear that
Moses helped the man that appealed to him (without looking this way or this way)
strucked the man with his fist.
was not proud of what he has done (this is work of evil).

So the killing of the man, in quran, can be quite considered as an accident.

So the clue question is Premeditation or not Premeditation . Bible says yes and quran says no.
It is a big difference. Very big difference.

Peace

Ayisha

salam ayisha

thank you for giving the reference of the story in bible.

I never contested that moses killed a man.
But, in bible, the murder was with premeditation. This is obvious with Exodus 2-12
And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.

while, in quran

28.15 And he entered the city at a time when its people were not watching and he found there two men fighting,- one of his own religion, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said "This is a work of Evil (Satan) for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!"

it is clear that
Moses helped the man that appealed to him (without looking this way or this way)
strucked the man with his fist.
was not proud of what he has done (this is work of evil).

So the killing of the man, in quran, can be quite considered as an accident.

So the clue question is Premeditation or not Premeditation . Bible says yes and quran says no.
It is a big difference. Very big difference.

Peace

Personally I would take the 'looked this way and that' as an error in translation somewhere as he saw 2 men fighting so there was obviously another there. Even so if he did look this way and that it still doesn't mean he intended to kill him.......he could have looked this way and that to check no one was looking while he punched him out.......there is no premeditation there IMHO, but the final result is the same, he did kill him.

noshirk

Salaam ayisha

Here my compilation of verses that reinforce my convinction that we have not to accept torah as it is

259 But the wicked altered what was said to them to a different saying, thus We sent down upon the wicked an affliction from the heavens for what wickedness they were in.

275 Did you expect that they would believe with you, when a group of them had heard the words of God then altered them knowingly after having understood?

277 Do they not know that God knows what they conceal and what they declare?

279 So woe to those who write the Book with their hands then say "This is from God," so that they can purchase with it a cheap price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.

2146 Those to whom We have given the Book know it as they know their own children; and a group of them hides the truth while they know.

378 And from among them is a group who twist their tongues with the Book so that you may think it is from the Book, while it is not from the Book, and they say it is from God while it is not from God, and they say about God lies while they know.

446 From among those who are Jewish are some who take the words out of context, and they say "We hear and disobey, and listen but let not any listen, and shepherd us," in a twisting of their tongues and as a mockery of the system! And had they said "We hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us," it would have been better for them and more upright; but God has cursed them for their disbelief, they do not believe except very little.

513 But because of them breaking their covenant, We have cursed them, and made their hearts become hardened; they take the words out of context; and they forgot much of what they were reminded of. And you will still discover betrayal in them except for a few; so pardon them and overlook; God loves the good doers.

515 O people of the Book, Our messenger has come to you to clarify for you much of what you were hiding from the Book, and to pardon over much. A light has come to you from God and a clarifying Book.

541 O messenger, do not be saddened by those who increase in disbelief from among those who said "We believe" with their mouths while their hearts did not believe. And from among those who are Jewish, there are those who listened to lies; they listened to people who never came to you; they distort the words from their context, and they say "If you are given this, then take it, but if you are given anything different, then beware!" And whoever God wants to test, then you will not possess anything for him against God. These are the ones whose hearts God did not want to cleanse; in this world they will have humiliation, and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.

691 And they did not appreciate God as He deserves to be appreciated, for they said "God has never sent down anything to any human being." Say "Who then has sent down the Book which Moses had come with, a light and a guidance for the people? You treat it simply as paper for display, and you conceal much; and you were taught what neither you nor your fathers knew." Say "God has." Then leave them playing in their folly.

7162 Those who were transgressors among them altered what was said to them with something different; so We sent to them an affliction from the heaven for what transgression they were in.

and i think that quran is here to correct because of

2776 This Qur'an tells to the Children of Israel most of that which they are in dispute over.

Peace

youssef4342

Peace be upon you guys as well,
Israel was A descendant of Noah, not the Direct descended of Noah...

Ayisha

Salaam ayisha

Here my compilation of verses that reinforce my convinction that we have not to accept torah as it is

Salam noshirk

Bold is from me

259 But the wicked altered what was said to them to a different saying, thus We sent down upon the wicked an affliction from the heavens for what wickedness they were in.

275 Did you expect that they would believe with you, when a group of them had heard the words of God then altered them knowingly after having understood?

277 Do they not know that God knows what they conceal and what they declare?

Like I said before somewhere, this IS happening NOW with Quran and 'a group of Muslims' who change what was said to a different saying, are they in any way altering the actual Quran? No.

279 So woe to those who write the Book with their hands then say "This is from God," so that they can purchase with it a cheap price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.

Again happening NOW with those who write the hadith and claim it is part of the revelation from God. Have you any idea how much has been made out of Sahih whoever and fiqh this and tafsir that, ALL writing the book with their own hands saying this is from God. Some people in this forum have even said Quran NEEDS hadith more than hadith need Quran. But has any of this changed the ACTUAL words in Quran? No.

2146 Those to whom We have given the Book know it as they know their own children; and a group of them hides the truth while they know.
same again, a group of muslims claim that men can have 4 wives just because he wants, or if he can afford, and some say these 4 wives don't have to know about each other, deceit is fine, there are some lies that are ok etc, is that what it says? No.

Many people in Islamic countries can't even read so have no way to know Quran but to have someone read it to them or explain it or go to the masjid and have it mixed in with hadith, that is the same, they are hiding the truth. Does it change what is actually in Quran? No.

378 And from among them is a group who twist their tongues with the Book so that you may think it is from the Book, while it is not from the Book, and they say it is from God while it is not from God, and they say about God lies while they know.
My personal favourite! yay Think hadith.......this is exactly what the jews did but making the REAL Torah into THEIR Torah and adding the ORAL (by their tongues) hadith of Moses...........like the ORAL hadith of Muhammed and the claims hadith are 'the wisdom' sent as some separate secret revelation and they even say it's 'protected' with Quran. Does it change the actual words in Quran? No.

446 From among those who are Jewish are some who take the words out of context, and they say "We hear and disobey, and listen but let not any listen, and shepherd us," in a twisting of their tongues and as a mockery of the system! And had they said "We hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us," it would have been better for them and more upright; but God has cursed them for their disbelief, they do not believe except very little.
same again...........

513 But because of them breaking their covenant, We have cursed them, and made their hearts become hardened; they take the words out of context; and they forgot much of what they were reminded of. And you will still discover betrayal in them except for a few; so pardon them and overlook; God loves the good doers.
the jews did break their covenant with God, they were God's chosen people and He promised them the land which they still don't have and never will have because they broke their covenant and they will forever be sorry, but not ALL jews. There are verses that tell you that too and they will be fine as they are following the Law even now.

515 O people of the Book, Our messenger has come to you to clarify for you much of what you were hiding from the Book, and to pardon over much. A light has come to you from God and a clarifying Book.
ok, so which clarifications has 'this' book made on what has been hidden from 'that' book? It actually confirms the stories, all those mentioned in Quran can be found in the 'other' book, so what is hidden?

541 O messenger, do not be saddened by those who increase in disbelief from among those who said "We believe" with their mouths while their hearts did not believe. And from among those who are Jewish, there are those who listened to lies; they listened to people who never came to you; they distort the words from their context, and they say "If you are given this, then take it, but if you are given anything different, then beware!" And whoever God wants to test, then you will not possess anything for him against God. These are the ones whose hearts God did not want to cleanse; in this world they will have humiliation, and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
and there is in there the famous hadithist distortion of 'whatever the messenger gives you take it' to mean follow how he went to the toilet! The full verse they leave as it's actually about spoils of war, but not many have looked anyway.

691 And they did not appreciate God as He deserves to be appreciated, for they said "God has never sent down anything to any human being." Say "Who then has sent down the Book which Moses had come with, a light and a guidance for the people? You treat it simply as paper for display, and you conceal much; and you were taught what neither you nor your fathers knew." Say "God has." Then leave them playing in their folly.
so here God is telling Muhammed to say this to the Jews, confirming He sent it but also confirming
that people concealed what was in it..........and still is in it......just like the hadithist claim of a partial verse concealing the rest......

7162 Those who were transgressors among them altered what was said to them with something different; so We sent to them an affliction from the heaven for what transgression they were in.
God said in Quran that the messenger was not to give anything other than Quran or He would have his jugular cut.....hadithists claim this is proof that hadith are also from God and claim Muhammed said them..........another hadith says do not write anything from me but Quran and another says that was only while Quran was being revealed...........which bit is from God and has the other bits changed anything that was from God?

and i think that quran is here to correct because of

2776 This Qur'an tells to the Children of Israel most of that which they are in dispute over.

Peace

yes but none of it changes the book does it?

Quran was send as a guide and a WARNING, the warning is to US, me and you, and these verses clearly warn what MAN has done to mess about with the message without ANY change to the actual message...........Muslims are told that you can't possibly understand Quran without hadith...........so history repeats itself and man does exactly the same as before and completely changes the entire message of God to something unrecognizable and people STILL go along with it even though they KNOW as they can READ the actual words, but the wicked among them manage to manipulate it so that cover your bosom means cover everything but one eye to see with and if you fear you can't do justice to the orphans then marry women of your choice up to 4, but one is BETTER as God knows you can't deal with them all justly to actually mean you can have 4 wives if you WANT...................

Do you see where I'm going with all this?

and still the Quran remains the same as it was when it was revealed.................

Ayisha

noshirk

Salaam
Little adding.

First of all, i want to notice that i am not agree with the expression "Israeli prophets"
To use this expression, we have to proove that there was at least one prophet from Bani Israel.
To be sent to Bani Israel doens'nt mean Chossen between people Bani Israel.

The hypothesis "all prophets are issued from the same geographical place" is interesting.
If true, that means if we locate one of them, we will locate all of them.

For example, we know that place where Muhammad was is linked to people of Lot who is linked to Abraham. Muhammad, Moses and Isaa lived in a place where there was a people called Bani Israel that were divided in 12 parts (Asbat) during Moses period according to a God Decision (7-160).
"Official Story" of Bani Israel lost 10 of the 12 so called "Tribes". We have even no proofs that the two not lost tribes are in fact from Bani Israel. All what we knows is that they were jews.

1087 And We inspired to Moses and his brother "Let your people leave their homes in Misr, and let these homes be a Qibla, and hold the contact prayer. And give good news to the believers."

I think that is a clear instruction. "Be TownsFolk and propagate religion Of God from there".
From that moment, we have to take into account the fact that many "jews" are not probably from Bani Israel.
Notice also that 10-87 seems to indicate that reconquest of Firaoun Land was not a military reconquest as indicated by "Josuah" story in bible.

Funningly, who knows? "True bani israel" could be themself a "God choosen" geographical marker.
Quran don't speaks about "Bani Israel" separation and migrations after Moses. Perhaps they never left the "true God promised land" after the Firaoun story.
And who knows, perhaps they are no more all "jews" ?
Perhaps it is only religion, teached from Qiblas as sources, who migrated and never "Bani Israel".

Peace