Is there an apparent conflict here?

mubashir55

Salam All A questioner wants to know about an apparent confilct here

Surat 'li `Imrn (Family of Imran) -

385 And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

Surat Al-Baqarah (The Cow) -

262 Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans - those who
believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

Magnus

oops

mubashir55

Would a definition of Muslims include those who wish to live in peace (regardless of faith)? What people believe will be judged ultimatedly by Allah.

mmkhan

385 And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

Salaam,

There is no mention on religion in 385 but Allah talks about Deen that means system. Hope this may help you, inshaAllah.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Magnus

Would a definition of Muslims include those who wish to live in peace (regardless of faith)? What people believe will be judged ultimatedly by Allah.

No. Muslim are those who submit to the Lord, which is a deen including thoughts and deeds both. Allah will judge between all people where they differ, yes indeed.

noshirk

salam

there is absolutely no conflict for me because "those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans those who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness" are muslims.

the expression put in the traduction is a falsification and inexistant in the quran.

notice that nowhere in quran you found references for the terms "judaism" or "christianism". These religions are not recognized as religions.

"those who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness" is the true defintion of islam.

if you understand islam by "religion brought by Muhammad" then there is contradiction and you have probably to study more quran.
I recommand special attention for verses where the word "muslim" appear. In the most case (75%), it is relative to periods were quran was not yet revealed.

peace

good_logic

Peace mubashir55.

There is no contradiction, because there is no " different religions" .There is only one " system/deen/religion" it is =Submission to the creator=

4213 HE ( GOD) decreed for you the same systm/deen/religion decreed for Noah and what We inspired to you and what We decreed for Abraham, Moses and Jesus? You shall uphold this one system/deen religion and do not divide it.? The idol worshippers will greatly resent what you are inviting them to do. GOD redeems to Himself only those who totally submit.?

( One system/deen /religion,which is -submission to GOD- not many! Man made stuff is called here ? idol worship? -following others- nothing to do with what GOD decreed!)

That is why anything other than -Total submission- will not be accepted. You could have belonged to any religion, but if you submit to " GOD Alone" and accept any idols , it is the true system/deen/religion.

Peace.

good_logic

Peace mubashir55

Quote from me "and accept any idols , it is the true system/deen/religion."

The highlighted bit is supposed to say "Accept no idols"

Peace.

Magnus

There is no mention on religion in 385 but Allah talks about Deen that means system. Hope this may help you, inshaAllah.

If deen=religion then atheism is a religion according to chapter 109. I'm fine with the word as long as it is understood correctly police

hawk99

Peace,

No contradiction, there is only submission to God Alone or no submission to God Alone

The Quran is clear on this matter. These are the minumum requirements for salvation.

Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

Peace O0

Mazhar

there is absolutely no conflict for me because "those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans those who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness" are muslims.

the expression put in the traduction is a falsification and inexistant in the quran.

Replace "are" with "were" and there is no need to put something in parentheses.

mubashir55

Thank you all for responding. The easy way out for many Muslims is to say "Well, one verse abrogates the other!". Do, we need to pay attention to why the word "Al-Islam" rather than Islam has been used in this Ayah?

Thanks.

Bigmo

Thank you all for responding. The easy way out for many Muslims is to say "Well, one verse abrogates the other!". Do, we need to pay attention to why the word "Al-Islam" rather than Islam has been used in this Ayah?

Thanks.

Maybe you should have started the discussion with how do we define what Islam is.

NOMAD

Salaam to all

Still to add that, Hudan-guided and Nasara-helpers and Muslim -pacified, SO we not sure if the translation is cristian and jew 100% acurate, thats the lagacy of our ancestors while mixing Quran to fullfill bible and hadith stories.....IMOP.. Ibrahim and prophets were not hudan nor nasara but muslims.. So they were not Helpers or guided(half role model), but pacified by Creator laws and way of life(muslims) wich is the complete role model to live , in all times and ages.

sunSalaam and stay in blessing and peace of Creator pr

NOMAD

Double post..sorry, my pc just crashed)

mubashir55

Thanks to all of you for your responses.

Some (as the example below) seem to suggest that other than followers of Qur'an and the blessed Rasool Muhammad, all (Jews, Christians and Sabeans) are going to hell

".........Please note the following points

The verb used "believed" in 262 is in perfect tense equivalent to past tense of English with reference to period of revelation of Quran.
Read the verse 263 which clarifies that if they act according to original book given to them, then this condition applies.
The verb used "seeks" in 385 is in imperfect tense equivalent to present and future tense of English with reference to period of revelation of Quran.

In short, verse 262 refers position before revelation of Quran and verse 365 refers position after revelation of Quran.
Once Quran is revealed see the position in verse 2137 "So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism;"

So, if you read verses in right context, there is no contradiction.

Verify above content yourself by clicking following links
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=62

http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=3&verse=85

http//www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=2&from_verse=137&to_verse=137&mac&translation_setting=1&show_transliteration=1&show_yusufali=1&show_shakir=1&show_pickthal=1&show_mkhan=1

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran
corpus.quran.com
Welcome to the Quranic Arabic Corpus, an annotated linguistic resource which shows the Arabic grammar, syntax and morphology for each word in the Holy Quran. Click on an Arabic word below to see details of the word's grammar, or to suggest a correction

with so many different interpretations what are simple commoners supposed to do? Reminds me of an Urdu couplet

Illahi teray saada dil banday bata aakhir kahan jaayen

(God, where should your simple-minded servants supposed to go for guidance?

teddy3indc

I have not read the whole thread.

There is only conflict if you change deen to "relgion". If you make Deen, a straight and natural way, then the Quran works again .

Peace and blessings.

Magnus

I have not read the whole thread.

There is only conflict if you change deen to "relgion". If you make Deen, a straight and natural way, then the Quran works again .

Peace and blessings.

You are correct, with the obvious qualification that there are other types of deen than Islam (see chapter 109 etc.)

Bigmo

Thanks to all of you for your responses.

Some (as the example below) seem to suggest that other than followers of Qur'an and the blessed Rasool Muhammad, all (Jews, Christians and Sabeans) are going to hell

".........Please note the following points

The verb used "believed" in 262 is in perfect tense equivalent to past tense of English with reference to period of revelation of Quran.
Read the verse 263 which clarifies that if they act according to original book given to them, then this condition applies.
The verb used "seeks" in 385 is in imperfect tense equivalent to present and future tense of English with reference to period of revelation of Quran.

In short, verse 262 refers position before revelation of Quran and verse 365 refers position after revelation of Quran.
Once Quran is revealed see the position in verse 2137 "So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism;"

So, if you read verses in right context, there is no contradiction.

Verify above content yourself by clicking following links
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=62

http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=3&verse=85

http//www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=2&from_verse=137&to_verse=137&mac&translation_setting=1&show_transliteration=1&show_yusufali=1&show_shakir=1&show_pickthal=1&show_mkhan=1

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran
corpus.quran.com
Welcome to the Quranic Arabic Corpus, an annotated linguistic resource which shows the Arabic grammar, syntax and morphology for each word in the Holy Quran. Click on an Arabic word below to see details of the word's grammar, or to suggest a correction

with so many different interpretations what are simple commoners supposed to do? Reminds me of an Urdu couplet

Illahi teray saada dil banday bata aakhir kahan jaayen

(God, where should your simple-minded servants supposed to go for guidance?

That does not answer the criteria the Quran uses to determine faith. Look at the verses again and see that criteria. That criteria is consitent in both Judaism and Christianity. Its a question whether someone believes in that or not.

mubashir55

Thanks as always for your comments you all.

Any significance to the following verse?

2137 "So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism;"