Why do you reject hadiths
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Hadiths are not gossips or conjecture. People of knowledge and authority have studied them extensively and have separated/pointed out fabrications. People have spent their lives in studying this thing.
people have also spent their lived in studying things like thast Jesus is son of God and bible the words of God. What do you say about that?
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Guys just as much as I am finding this thread interesting, I want to hear what you guys have to say regarding the verses Rameez posted in his post when he said he is stopping this discussion. The ones which he uses to say that there was revelation outside the Quran. Thanks
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I am here to understand your(Quranists) views and I cannot understand them deeply unless I debate/discuss with you guys. I am not here to prove your wrong ..I am just giving my arguments and reading your arguments back.
I see. Thank you for your answer, and I hope you get what you are looking for.
Peace,
Amina
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LOL @ lie invented 200+ years.
Yes lie invented 200+ years afterwards which there were supposedly close to million lies fabrications and hearsays.
Muhammad al-Bukhari (810?870; 200+ years after revelation), from Uzbekistan hearsay collector, Sahih al-BukhariGuys just as much as I am finding this thread interesting, I want to hear what you guys have to say regarding the verses Rameez posted in his post when he said he is stopping this discussion. The ones which he uses to say that there was revelation outside the Quran. Thanks
What verses, like this one? Where does it say other than the reminder makes clear to those who reflect?
1644 with the evidence and the scriptures and We descended to you the reminder to make clear to the mankind what descended to them and perhaps they who reflect?
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No bro, these ones (Direct quote from rameez)
Following are some examples which shows that there was something other than Quran that was given to Messenger.
And We did not appoint the Qiblah on which you were earlier, but that We might know the people who follow the Messenger as distinct from those who turn back on their heels. (2143) So turn your face towards al-Masjid al-Haraam. (2144)
Please explain which is the earlier Qiblah ? And how were the people who follow the Messenger were facing that Qiblah if is not mentioned in Quran ?
It is made lawful for you, in the nights of fasts, to have sex with your women. They are a cover for you, and you are a cover for them. All?h knew that you were betraying yourselves; so, He relented towards you and pardoned you. So, now you can have sexual intimacy with them, and seek what All?h has destined for you, and eat and drink until the white thread of the dawn becomes distinct from the black thread; then complete the fasts up to the night. (2187)
The following points with respect to this verse are worth consideration
(a) The verse confirms that having sex during the nights of Ramadaan was not lawful before.
(b) The people who had sex during the nights of Ramadaan before this verse was revealed are admonished by describing their act as "betraying themselves."
(c) The words, "so He relented towards you and pardoned you," indicate that their sexual act was a sin, because "relenting" and "pardoning" occur only after a person commits a sin.
(d) The words "so now you can have sexual intimacy with them" denote that it is only now that the sexual act during the nights of Ramadaan has been made lawful.All these points confirm the fact that the earlier prohibition of having sexual intercourse during the nights of Ramadaan was validly made by a competent authority, and the Muslims were bound to abide by it.
But there is no verse in the Holy Qur'?n to convey this prohibition.. It was enforced only by the Holy Prophet. Still, the Holy Qur'?n not only confirms it, but also treats it as if it were in its own words. It is due to the fact that the Holy Prophet did not enforce this prohibition by his own will, it was rather based on a revelation of All?h Almighty which is not contained in the Holy Qur'?n.And when All?h promised you that one of the two groups shall be for you. (87)
The point worth consideration here is that the promise of All?h to give the Muslims victory against any of the two groups is not there in the Holy Qur'?n.
And when the Prophet told one of his wives about a matter secretly; then, when she told about it, and All?h has disclosed it to him, he made known some part of it, and turned aside from some part; then, when he told her about it, she said, "Who told you this?" He said, "I was told by the All-Knowing, the All-Aware." (66 3)
How Allah disclosed this to Prophet ? because it is not mentioned in Quran anywhere.
Whatever date-trees you cut down, or left standing upon their roots, that was by the leave of All?h. (595)
It has been very directly mentioned in this verse that the Muslims cut down the trees with a leave from All?h. But nobody can point out to any verse in the Holy Qur'?n to the effect that the cutting of trees during the war is allowed. The question is from where did the Muslims acquire this leave from All?h?
Take due care of all the prayers and the middle prayer; and stand before All?h in total devotion. But if you are in fear, then (pray) on foot or riding, but when you are in peace, then recite the name of All?h in the way He taught you. (2238-239)
Now, the Holy Qur'?n directs the Muslims that in the state of peace they should perform the prayer in its normal way which has been taught to them by All?h. It is an express indication that the normal way of performing prayers has been taught to the Muslims by All?h Himself. But no such way has ever been mentioned in the Holy Qur'?n. There is no verse in the Holy Book mentioning the detailed way of performing prayer. It is only the Holy Prophet who educated the Muslims as to how they are to perform it. But the Holy Qur'?n holds the teaching of the Holy Prophet to be the teaching of All?h.
Those remaining behind will say, when you set forth after spoils to acquire them, "Let us follow you,"- desiring to change the words of All?h. Say, "You shall not follow us; so All?h has said earlier." (4815)
The emphasized words indicate that there was a previous word of All?h barring the participation of the hypocrites in the battle of Khaybar, and confining the battle to the participants of Hudaibiyah. But no such word exists anywhere in the Holy Qur'?n.
Move not your tongue with it in order to hasten it. It is on Us to gather it (in your heart) and to recite it. So, when We read it, follow its reading. Then it is on Us to explain it. (7516-19)
In the last sentence, All?h Almighty has promised the Holy Prophet to explain the verses of the Holy Qur'?n to him. It is evident that this explanation is something separate from the Holy Qur'?n itself. It is not the Holy Qur'?n. It is its explanation or its exegesis. Because first the verses are given then explanation , but Quran only contains verses not explanation , where is the explanation that Allah promised to explain after "reading" ?
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Peace rameez.
First let me give you credit for your effort to answer so many posts. Now for the points you raised
1- Quote I said it is not in "hadith". Even the hadith you quoted do not have those words.
Wrong, check " Do not write any of my sayings, He maintained that stand till his death"?2- Quote You said that Allah do not abrogate the verse, I posted the complete verse in which it is clearly mentioned that Verses are abrogated. Please don't play this arabic game.
You gave the answer yourself Quote What ? I claimed that there are contradictions in Quran ?
The way you explained the verse meant a contradiction, the way I explained it there was no contradiction!Let me give you this background .It is relevant and very important to understand Islam
Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the deen/religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.]
Islam is called "Millat Ibrahim" (The deen/ Religion of Abraham) throughout the Quran (2130, 2135; 395; 4125; 6161; 1237-38; 16123; 2173; 227. Moreover, the Quran informs us that Muhammad was a follower of Abraham (16123).
All the religious practices were passed down, except what god changed for each prophet .
Now the verses you quoted
-GOD tried the believers about the " Qibla". What is relevant ,is " the new Qiblq", that is all we need to know.That was clearly mentioned. At the time GOD was to distinguish who would follow Muhammed with the " past Qibla", it is not relevant to us now.Sawm was practised since Abraham. The law was modified in the Quran to allow intercourse during the night (2187).
Again the verses apply during the "prophet life". GOD was trying the believers to see if they were seriously fighting for the cause.
Some wanted to fight the weaker group but GOD wanted them to fight the strong group. GOD promised victory.Read from to understand the context,
Other revelations beside Qoran in that context are irrelevant." It is We who explain it" applies to all believers. GOD teaches and explains the Qoran to all believers " Alrahman, allama AlQoran" GOD also prevents the disbelievers from understanding Qoran.
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Finally Salat was also practised since Abraham. If anything hadith has distorted the number of salat, how to do ablution.
All the details we need to know are in Qoran. If it is not in Qoran it is a fabrication.Peace.
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Guys just as much as I am finding this thread interesting, I want to hear what you guys have to say regarding the verses Rameez posted in his post when he said he is stopping this discussion. The ones which he uses to say that there was revelation outside the Quran. Thanks
It seems everyone ignored reply # 86 which is a reply to the aayaats quoted by brother Rameez. Please check or click here.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
-GOD tried the believers about the " Qibla". What is relevant ,is " the new Qiblq", that is all we need to know.That was clearly mentioned. At the time GOD was to distinguish who would follow Muhammed with the " past Qibla", it is not relevant to us now.
Do you even tried to understand what point i was making ?
Read 2143 And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels.
The verse 2143 clearly states that people were facing some Qiblah at the time of Messenger before the new Qiblah mentioned in 2144. What was that previous Qiblah which people were facing ? Who told them to face that Qiblah when there is no such thing is mentioned in Quran ? Or Messenger himself invented a lie to let people face earlier Qiblah ?
Sawm was practised since Abraham. The law was modified in the Quran to allow intercourse during the night (2187).
I don't know what did you read from my comments. I posted the following please read again
The following points with respect to this verse are worth consideration
(a) The verse confirms that having sex during the nights of Ramadaan was not lawful before.
(b) The people who had sex during the nights of Ramadaan before this verse was revealed are admonished by describing their act as "betraying themselves."
(c) The words, "so He relented towards you and pardoned you," indicate that their sexual act was a sin, because "relenting" and "pardoning" occur only after a person commits a sin.
(d) The words "so now you can have sexual intimacy with them" denote that it is only now that the sexual act during the nights of Ramadaan has been made lawful.All these points confirm the fact that the earlier prohibition of having sexual intercourse during the nights of Ramadaan was validly made by a competent authority, and the Muslims were bound to abide by it.
But there is no verse in the Holy Qur'?n to convey this prohibition.. It was enforced only by the Holy Prophet. Still, the Holy Qur'?n not only confirms it, but also treats it as if it were in its own words. It is due to the fact that the Holy Prophet did not enforce this prohibition by his own will, it was rather based on a revelation of All?h Almighty which is not contained in the Holy Qur'?n.Again the verses apply during the "prophet life". GOD was trying the believers to see if they were seriously fighting for the cause.
Some wanted to fight the weaker group but GOD wanted them to fight the strong group. GOD promised victory.Read from to understand the context,
Other revelations beside Qoran in that context are irrelevant.The point worth consideration here is that the promise of All?h to give the Muslims victory against any of the two groups is not there in the Holy Qur'?n.
" It is We who explain it" applies to all believers. GOD teaches and explains the Qoran to all believers " Alrahman, allama AlQoran" GOD also prevents the disbelievers from understanding Qoran.
So, when We read it, follow its reading. Then it is on Us to explain it. (7516-19)
Who is this "We" asking to read ? and then promising it to explain ? Where is the explanation ? Because Quran only contains what was recited. Explanation has to be something other than the recited verse.
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For 4815
The emphasized words indicate that there was a previous word of All?h barring the participation of the hypocrites in the battle of Khaybar, and confining the battle to the participants of Hudaibiyah. But no such word exists anywhere in the Holy Qur'?n.
The point in 4815 is that where are the words that the verse says in the end "Allah said earlier" ?For 595
It has been very directly mentioned in this verse that the Muslims cut down the trees with a leave from All?h. But nobody can point out to any verse in the Holy Qur'?n to the effect that the cutting of trees during the war is allowed. The question is from where did the Muslims acquire this leave from All?h?
Where in the Quran the leave is given that is mentioned in the end of 595 ?
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Why do you guys reject hadiths and why do you think that Hadiths are false and fabrications but still followed by more than 90% of muslims for more than 1000 years ?
Why Allah allowed such a massive corruption in his last and final religion ?
Peace rameez,
You have been given many points of view and in response you counter like an intellectual boxer.
Bobbing and weaving irregardless of the valid punches thrown.
It appears that you are not really asking a question, but digging your heels in to make a standPeace O0
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Peace rameez.
1- Quote Do you even tried to understand what point i was making ?
I said it is irrelevant we do not need to know. Why do you want to know something irrelevant? It is of no use since it has been changed.
If it is mentioned in hadith so what? GOD does not see it as important because He has not mentioned it.
2- Quote I don't know what did you read from my comments. I posted the following please read again
You should also have read my answer. I said the prohibition was since Abraham. I said Islam was the Deen/religion of Abraham. Muhammed was told to follow the Deen/religion of Abraham.
3-Quote The point worth consideration here is that the promise of All?h to give the Muslims victory against any of the two groups is not there in the Holy Qur'?n.
Similar to (1). Not relevant to know where, who? Relevant to know GOD gives victory to the believers.That is there.That is also enough for us to know.. If hadith is telling us something not in Qoran, but of no benefit to us, so what?4-Quote So, when We read it, follow its reading. Then it is on Us to explain it. (7516-19)
GOD explains to the "sincere" " la yamassuhu illa almutaharoon"
That is where the explanation is. Every sincere submitter who comes to learn Qoran and trust in GOD Alone. GOD will explain it to them.
Notice how the opposite is true- Every disbeliever will be prevented from understanding Qoran.5- Again GOD puts in Qoran what is relevant for us. If it is not in Qoran it is not needed.
6-Quote Where in the Quran the leave is given that is mentioned in the end of 595 ?
GOD s will simply means GOD knew what they were going to do before they did it.( He knew which trees they were to cut or leave)
It does not mean he said something that is not in Qoran.Peace.
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I see many places in Quran where, other prophets say Obey Me. So why should we only choose Prophet Muhammad? Just a few below. However we don't have hadith for Prophet Isa, Prophet Moses Prophet Noah and the others. I mean there are stories about things Prophet Isa said and did, which I suppose could be implemented, they are from good sources with less time space then the hadiths of Prophet Muhammad. But why risk it when I have the truth in front of me. Shaytan is an enemy that can easily influence any man.
When Isa came with clear signs, he said, '...fear Allah AND OBEY ME.'" 4363
"So fear Allah, and OBEY ME (Nuh)."26108,110
"But Fir'oun disobeyed the messenger; so we seized him with a heavy punishment." 7316
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Salam rameez
Response to Argument 1
465 But no, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you, , judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in submission.2448 And when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them, at once a party of them turns aside .
Response to Argument 2
Hadiths are not gossips or conjecture. People of knowledge and authority have studied them extensively and have separated/pointed out fabrications. People have spent their lives in studying this thing.Response to Argument 3
I failed to see where it is mentioned that don't bring any other book. It just say "I follow what is revealed to me" .You are free to reject or accept whatever you want.
in 4-65, the word used is "Youhakkimounaka" and means that people ask for arbitration and accept judgment. I inform you that the prophet is no more living.
24-48 is a classic confusion between rassool and prophet. Rassool has only to transmit message.However your response to argument 1 is not a response to argument 1
Argument 1 says that Quran says that hadithers is target of demons since they transmit what they heard.you have also not responded to Argument 2. You are referinng to people with autority (who give them the autority ?) and with knowledge (From where they get it ? from the hadith ? ). Please explain.
if Hadiths are not gossips please take the hadith you want and try proove that Prophet Muhammad said That without referring to people you never met, seen or heard directly. In tribunals, this kind of proove is rejected because it is considered gossip.Response to argument 3 is also not response.
10-15 refers clearly to another Quran/lecture forbidden for prophet.
13-73 speaks clealy about inventing other thing. Also forbidden.
Please found mention of books other than quran to follow. Youhakkimounaka is not book, Hikma is not a book. I don't understand how you see books in words that don't means books. Put all the words you mentionned in google traduction and try see if books or hadith appears.Just by curiosity
456 These are the revelations of God, We recite them to you with the truth. So, in which "Hadith" after God and His "Ayats" do they believe?
How can you not see Hadith in Hadith in verse 45-6. Please tell me what you see ?
I am really interested to know how a hadither thinks.
What does hadith means if it doesent mean Hadith ?
Is Hadith brought by Bukhari ayats ?Peace
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Peace rameez.
1- Quote Do you even tried to understand what point i was making ?
I said it is irrelevant we do not need to know. Why do you want to know something irrelevant? It is of no use since it has been changed.
If it is mentioned in hadith so what? GOD does not see it as important because He has not mentioned it.
Haha, its so funny how you are ignoring my question. People were facing some qiblah before revelation of new qiblah. Who told them about that Qiblah ? If only Quran was revealed to Messenger then it means Earlier Qiblah must be mentioned in Quran. Else how people were facing the Qiblah when it is not mentioned in Quran ?
2- Quote I don't know what did you read from my comments. I posted the following please read again
You should also have read my answer. I said the prohibition was since Abraham. I said Islam was the Deen/religion of Abraham. Muhammed was told to follow the Deen/religion of Abraham.
It says they used to commit sexual intercourse in ramadan but they knew it was prohibited . Who made it prohibited ? How they were following Deen/religion of abraham when they were worshipping multiple gods ? Why Allah said that your sins are forgiven ? It simply means that they were doing it after accepting Messenger of Quran.
3-Quote The point worth consideration here is that the promise of All?h to give the Muslims victory against any of the two groups is not there in the Holy Qur'?n.
Similar to (1). Not relevant to know where, who? Relevant to know GOD gives victory to the believers.That is there.That is also enough for us to know.. If hadith is telling us something not in Qoran, but of no benefit to us, so what?I am asking where are those words that "Allah said earlier" ? You guys say that only Quran was revealed to Messenger , so it means these words of Allah which he said earlier must be in Quran . Else you have to agree that there was another type of revelation to Messenger other than Quran.
4-Quote So, when We read it, follow its reading. Then it is on Us to explain it. (7516-19)
GOD explains to the "sincere" " la yamassuhu illa almutaharoon"
That is where the explanation is. Every sincere submitter who comes to learn Qoran and trust in GOD Alone. GOD will explain it to them.
Notice how the opposite is true- Every disbeliever will be prevented from understanding Qoran."When WE read it, follow its reading. Then it is on Us to explain it" . The verse clearly saying that after reading we will explain. But as usual being a Quranist , you are expert in ignoring and twisting.
5- Again GOD puts in Qoran what is relevant for us. If it is not in Qoran it is not needed.
6-Quote Where in the Quran the leave is given that is mentioned in the end of 595 ?
GOD s will simply means GOD knew what they were going to do before they did it.( He knew which trees they were to cut or leave)
It does not mean he said something that is not in Qoran.
Peace.595 Whatever you have cut down of palm trees or left standing on their trunks - it was by permission of Allah and so He would disgrace the defiantly disobedient.
Can you find any statement in Quran which tell them the leave to "cut down" trees ?
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Peace rameez,
You have been given many points of view and in response you counter like an intellectual boxer.
Bobbing and weaving irregardless of the valid punches thrown.
It appears that you are not really asking a question, but digging your heels in to make a standPeace O0
LOL . Valid punches ? Bringing irrelevant verses, ignoring questions is what you call valid punches? Oh yes Quranists are expert in it
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Salam rameez
if Hadiths are not gossips please take the hadith you want and try proove that Prophet Muhammad said That without referring to people you never met, seen or heard directly. In tribunals, this kind of proove is rejected because it is considered gossip.
I will respond to your other questions after . Now let me ask you to quote a verse and PROVE THAT IT WAS REVEALED TO MESSENGER VIA GIBREEL AND IN TURN WAS REVEALED BY ALLAH.
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you have also not responded to Argument 2. You are referinng to people with autority (who give them the autority ?) and with knowledge (From where they get it ? from the hadith ? ). Please explain.
if Hadiths are not gossips please take the hadith you want and try proove that Prophet Muhammad said That without referring to people you never met, seen or heard directly. In tribunals, this kind of proove is rejected because it is considered gossip.Salaams.
The bold part doesn't do you justice at all. By that logic, one can easily discredit Qur'an as well, since it came to us through an angel, then through a human we didn't really meet. Just saying.