Debating a Salafi

[mmkhan]

Salaams Khan,

I beg to differ. You have no knowledge of whether people just say those words or they really feel it. That knowledge is with Allah s.w.t. since he is the only one who can look into person's heart. On the other hand, I understand what you are saying since I, myself, am familiar and, at times, annoyed with hardcore hadithists who are, to put it nicely, pretty stubborn in their belief concerning hadith but that is not a reason to mock them.

Salaams Shila,

That is OK if you differ and you are right that only Allah knows what is in their hearts and He said that in AlQuraan.

28
28 And of the people are they who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers.

29
29 They deceive Allah and those who believe, but they deceive not except themselves and perceive not.

210
210 In their hearts is disease, so Allah has increased their disease; and for them is a painful punishment because they used to lie.

211
211 And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."

212
212 Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive not.

You can go on reading the following aayaats till 220 and try comparing these aayaats with those who call themselves Muslims.

541
541 O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. Avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their usages, saying "If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah ? never will you possess for him a thing against Allah. Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

As I said before, I shared my personal experiences, I used to be a salafi and I used to give them dars, so, I know much about them. I faced them many times.

May Allah protect us and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

[Shirin]

Salaams Shila,

That is OK if you differ and you are right that only Allah knows what is in their hearts and He said that in AlQuraan.

28
28 And of the people are they who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers.

29
29 They deceive Allah and those who believe, but they deceive not except themselves and perceive not.

210
210 In their hearts is disease, so Allah has increased their disease; and for them is a painful punishment because they used to lie.

211
211 And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."

212
212 Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive not.

You can go on reading the following aayaats till 220 and try comparing these aayaats with those who call themselves Muslims.

541
541 O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. Avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their usages, saying "If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah ? never will you possess for him a thing against Allah. Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

As I said before, I shared my personal experiences, I used to be a salafi and I used to give them dars, so, I know much about them. I faced them many times.

Salaams Khan,

thanks for the verses D though I don't really think they talk about salafis, my understanding is that they speak about hypocrite people, who say they believe in God just to gain some earthly benefits or something like that.
Almost all of us followed/believed hadith for some period of time, by the will of God we stopped so, perhaps, God just wants to test us with people we once were. It's not OK to be arrogant after you were blessed.

May Allah protect us and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

x2 pr

This is the part of your posts I like the most, and instead of mocking salafis, you can pray like this for them too. It's a noble thing to do.

[mmkhan]

Salaams Khan,

thanks for the verses D though I don't really think they talk about salafis, my understanding is that they speak about hypocrite people, who say they believe in God just to gain some earthly benefits or something like that.
Almost all of us followed/believed hadith for some period of time, by the will of God we stopped so, perhaps, God just wants to test us with people we once were. It's not OK to be arrogant after you were blessed.

Salaams Shila,

Agreed! It is not specifically talking about Salafis and also it is not specifically talking about hypocrites though. But who soever falls in the said category are being referred by Allah. Be it a Salafi, Sufi, Sunni, Shia, Me, You or anyone else.

A small correct I am not being arrogant after Allah blessed me but I am showing their arrogance.

Let me tell you an incident. Once me and my friends discussing 6145 and they all stuck on hadith saying that Mohammed already said, whole pig is haraam, I was like hypno. I said this is Allah who is saying only flesh of pig is haraam not whole pig, they never care, they said when we already saw in hadith that whole pig is haraam, we don't wanna listen anything because that hadith explains this aayat that we cannot understand directly. Finally, me and one of my friend, taken the aayat as guidance and they all took hadith instead.

After a year or so, same thing happened with another person, he listened to many many aayaats, I was showing him for almost 3 hours and he agreed to all of them , surprisingly when we came to 6145 again on that pig thing. He rejects and said I have to study, I cannot say anything and he left. After few years when we met again, I asked him why you are preaching hadith in mosques when we already saw many aayaats on this and you also agreed to that. He replied, I was agreeing but when you said only flesh of pig is haraam, then I realized that you are misguided.
I said, what about other aayaats that you have seen for yourself. He said, no, I understood that you are misguiding me.

There are many many examples with me. Anyways...

x2 pr

This is the part of your posts I like the most, and instead of mocking salafis, you can pray like this for them too. It's a noble thing to do.

x2? ;D

OK then x3 pr

Thanks for your kind words. Do you really think that only praying for them gonna work? hmm What if I say, O God, make me the strongest man in this world and sit at home without doing any exercise? hmm

May Allah bless you and increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

[Maha]

Shila

thanks for the verses though I don't really think they talk about salafis, my understanding is that they speak about hypocrite people, who say they believe in God just to gain some earthly benefits or something like that

And Salafi arent hypocrite how?

This is the part of your posts I like the most, and instead of mocking salafis, you can pray like this for them too. It's a noble thing to do

so saying your opinion about salafis is mocking according to you? So we shall basically just shut up and stop having any opinions about them according to you?

Are you playing the police of freeminds since you feel a need of correcting and condemning each and everyone here?

[Ayisha]

be fair, I totally understand what Shila is saying and she is right........to a point.

example
"authu billahi min shaitan ilraheem .... as i said before, even you show them the truth, them hearts will be closed, and them ears will be closed, Allah guide her really or she gonna be lost in hell. and Allah protect us from commiting the same sin."

That is a post by someone in a group, this is about ME after being kicked out of the group for quoting Quran and they think I am the sinner for not accepting hadith, we do the same here though. Each are convinced they are right.

Maha, I LOVE your avatar pic bravo

[Meteora]

I read all posts since my last, and I'm sure that, with zero arrogance

Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded we genitally mutilate boys and/or girls.

Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded killing a person who leaves Islam, especially the ever-so-corrupted mainstream version.

Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded we stone people to death if they have sex outside marriage.

Allah accepts that we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded we're to believe Muhammad practiced and endorsed the jaw-dropping nonsense you'll find in just Bukhari and/or Muslim.

Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah's dress code for women is basically a very loose sack with a slit for the eyes, or simply the face showing, free of make-up or brow trims (I wonder then, what was the point of Allah saying to lower our gaze from the opposite sex to begin with?).

I could go on though it's pointless. Every sane, moral person here who stands for justice knows it is the truth, especially when they investigate Quran and free themselves of the shackles of hopeless mainstream Islam. Ayisha and mmkhan weren't being conceited, just acting out of their sense of justice and, more or less, common sense.

I don't see how it's not their punishment; I don't see how Allah doesn't have them already humiliated in this world; they already self-humiliate themselves more than we can.

[Meteora]

I think the following warrants its own post

well done edip! We are proud of you

Keep in mind that in particular sunnism is all about controling people and their mind, and when the sunnis loose that control, it threatens their whole ideology and that is why the salafi guy became so annoyed and angry although he tried his best not to show off his anger in order to avoid being labeled 'uncivilized' but basically he was a very typical stubborn hadither. Just watch how he after a while began to make personal attacks, as well as changing the subject in order to avoid the actual point.
If you notice it, you will see that these hadithers usually dont get angry while debating with non-muslims, but they become very angry and annoyed when debating former muslims or quran aloners because we are ''insiders'' who know their religion to depth as well as their weakness and secrets. Due to these obvious reasons, hadithers cannot fool us as they can fool non-muslims with their usual excuses.

but hey you could see that salafi holy guys legs rotfl is that a sign of holiness

Its only when you debate secular sunnis/shiites or sunnis/shiites who dont take their religion so serious, that you can expect some kind of agreement and understanding. I have spoken to some secular sunnis who agreed with me regarding hadith, but that didnt made them take any action since they already didnt gave religion any serious importance.

But good work Edip bravo

Excellent observation. Some years back I began to think the same. As I was reading the part bolded, Yusuf Estes came to mind. I used to listen to his nonsensical lectures online, then I listened to a "khutba" he gave at a local mosque around where I live. All his lectures to non-Muslims, were generally free of hate, arrogance, not as stupid, and somewhat made you want to listen. The khutba he gave opposing Quran-aloners was lolworthy. His thesis basically was that Quran-aloners are "shayaateens" (devils) since they just believe in Allah like the Devil does, and are not actually "practicing" the religion, just as the Devil doesn't either. To actually believe in Allah AND do that which Allah wants, you have to follow the Quran and the Sunnah. Lol.

No really, you can't hate me for laughing there considering what the Sunnah actually commands you to do.

[Ayisha]

I read all posts since my last, and I'm sure that, with zero arrogance

Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded we genitally mutilate boys and/or girls.

Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded killing a person who leaves Islam, especially the ever-so-corrupted mainstream version.

Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded we stone people to death if they have sex outside marriage.

Allah accepts that we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded we're to believe Muhammad practiced and endorsed the jaw-dropping nonsense you'll find in just Bukhari and/or Muslim.

Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah's dress code for women is basically a very loose sack with a slit for the eyes, or simply the face showing, free of make-up or brow trims (I wonder then, what was the point of Allah saying to lower our gaze from the opposite sex to begin with?).

I could go on though it's pointless. Every sane, moral person here who stands for justice knows it is the truth, especially when they investigate Quran and free themselves of the shackles of hopeless mainstream Islam. Ayisha and mmkhan weren't being conceited, just acting out of their sense of justice and, more or less, common sense.

I don't see how it's not their punishment; I don't see how Allah doesn't have them already humiliated in this world; they already self-humiliate themselves more than we can.

oppose yes, ridicule no.

23.110 "But ye treated them with ridicule, so much so that (ridicule of) them made you forget My Message while ye were laughing at them!

[Maha]

be fair, I totally understand what Shila is saying and she is right........to a point.

example
"authu billahi min shaitan ilraheem .... as i said before, even you show them the truth, them hearts will be closed, and them ears will be closed, Allah guide her really or she gonna be lost in hell. and Allah protect us from commiting the same sin."

That is a post by someone in a group, this is about ME after being kicked out of the group for quoting Quran and they think I am the sinner for not accepting hadith, we do the same here though. Each are convinced they are right.

Peace sister
well i guess everyone is convinced that they are right, otherwise they would be confused fools o.
I dont understand what shila means, all i see is her playing an angry police cop ready to condemn each and everyone.

Well I have been in several sunni and shiite forums, i have been called a jew, israeli, zionist, american, westerner, kafir, pagan, prophet-muhammad-hater, racist, hate-monger, apostate and the list goes on and on and even been banned. I have never seen any hadither coming here been banned or called all these above things.

Maha, I LOVE your avatar pic bravo

Thank you dear group

[tonggaktuo]

Well I have been in several sunni and shiite forums, i have been called a jew, israeli, zionist, american, westerner, kafir, pagan, prophet-muhammad-hater, racist, hate-monger, apostate and the list goes on and on and even been banned. I have never seen any hadither coming here been banned or called all these above things.

Thank you dear group

dear sis,
even in my country, you can loose your head or intimidated if you show that you are quranist, depend on location.
i have to say the truth, they can provocate others to do something harm for you! true salafi can be said as blood thirsty monster in real meaning!.. i am so afraid of them.... i am sorrry i dont like to say this, but this is true...

[unknownuser]

dear sis,
even in my country, you can loose your head or intimidated if you show that you are quranist, depend on location.
i have to say the truth, they can provocate others to do something harm for you! true salafi can be said as blood thirsty monster in real meaning!.. i am so afraid of them.... i am sorrry i dont like to say this, but this is true...

May Allah protect you from those types...

Peace,

Amina

[mmkhan]

dear sis,
even in my country, you can loose your head or intimidated if you show that you are quranist, depend on location.
i have to say the truth, they can provocate others to do something harm for you! true salafi can be said as blood thirsty monster in real meaning!.. i am so afraid of them.... i am sorrry i dont like to say this, but this is true...

Salaam,

I agree with Amina, may Allah protect you and bless you with everything lawful pr

mmKhan

[Edip_Yuksel]

Thanks for the support, feedback and criticism...

I would like to engage more in public debates with Sunni, Shiite, Christian and Atheist scholars and leaders... You are welcome to contact me and offer me names, especially if you can help in setting up an appointment with the names you are proposing. Of course, it would be much better if you also could help organize such a public event at a university, institution, organization, mosque or church. I would try my best to participate. My email address [email protected]

PS Inshallah, for another documentary film, I will be in Boston area interviewing some scholars in political science, such as Chomsky in mid November. The date with Chomsky is determined, but the rest (Finkelstein, etc) are not yet. When my schedule becomes clear, I will inshallah announce it here. In sum, I would like also to intersperse political interviews/debates sessions with theological conversations/debates...

Peace,
Edip

[Shirin]

be fair, I totally understand what Shila is saying and she is right........to a point.

example
"authu billahi min shaitan ilraheem .... as i said before, even you show them the truth, them hearts will be closed, and them ears will be closed, Allah guide her really or she gonna be lost in hell. and Allah protect us from commiting the same sin."

That is a post by someone in a group, this is about ME after being kicked out of the group for quoting Quran and they think I am the sinner for not accepting hadith, we do the same here though. Each are convinced they are right.

Thanks Ayisha D

@Maha
Dear sister, I have no interest in playing cop or anything like that, I just don't like seeing people judging others and mocking them. This is not just a case with "Quranists"vs"Salafis", I generally don't like that since only The Almighty knows what we all are.

Another thing is, people who follow Qur'an alone/God alone, should bear in mind these two ayahs

4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.

2563 And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say "Peace."

I don't think we should not debate, share our views with others and stand firm in our beliefs and defend them at any cost against attackers, but we should do it with humbleness as well.

God bless you all.

Peace and love.

[Meteora]

I guess I moreso meant ridiculing the beliefs, not so much the people. I'm pretty sure you found what I mentioned Sunni Islam believes in to be ridiculous, even before I made the post and pointed them out.

Though if this word should be discarded for another, how about nonsensical. I just find ridiculous and nonsensical pretty interchangeable.

-M

[Lena]

Is describing someone's body language a form of ridicule? If so, I apologize.

[Maha]

I think the following warrants its own post

Excellent observation. Some years back I began to think the same. As I was reading the part bolded, Yusuf Estes came to mind. I used to listen to his nonsensical lectures online, then I listened to a "khutba" he gave at a local mosque around where I live. All his lectures to non-Muslims, were generally free of hate, arrogance, not as stupid, and somewhat made you want to listen. The khutba he gave opposing Quran-aloners was lolworthy. His thesis basically was that Quran-aloners are "shayaateens" (devils) since they just believe in Allah like the Devil does, and are not actually "practicing" the religion, just as the Devil doesn't either. To actually believe in Allah AND do that which Allah wants, you have to follow the Quran and the Sunnah. Lol.

No really, you can't hate me for laughing there considering what the Sunnah actually commands you to do.

Yusuf estes is a misguided hadither misleading others. He appears mostly on peace tv where they use him due to his American background and because he looks like a cosy grandfather which makes non-Muslims comfortable with him and Muslims proud that "Islam is prevailing in America". You are absolutely right, whenever they talk to non Muslims they mostly preach "basic good deeds" in order to make non Muslims comfortable with sunnism, which is their first step in misleading people. First make them comfortable with Islam, make them think that islam is a peaceful religion, a champion on humanity and about Being a good person. When the non Muslim is convinced with that they take the next step, trying to prove to him that Muhammad is the messenger of god, Quran and Hadith the word of god and the messenger, and when they have done that they take the third step which is to make the person submit to weird ideas like hijab, polygamy, slavery, child marriages, khalifah, stoning for adultery, stoning for apostates, the west being the enemy of Islam, music being evil, nonmuslims going to hell(all of these things they were hiding from the non Muslims to begin with). When the person is also convinced of the third and final step their mission is completed.

That's basically how they Brainwash non Muslims. But of course they would never get any succeed with doing that to former Muslims or Quran Aloners that is why they never try it on us. That is also why we are a bigger threat to them then non Muslims.

[Maha]

Thanks Ayisha D

@Maha
Dear sister, I have no interest in playing cop or anything like that, I just don't like seeing people judging others and mocking them. This is not just a case with "Quranists"vs"Salafis", I generally don't like that since only The Almighty knows what we all are.

Another thing is, people who follow Qur'an alone/God alone, should bear in mind these two ayahs

4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.

2563 And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say "Peace."

I don't think we should not debate, share our views with others and stand firm in our beliefs and defend them at any cost against attackers, but we should do it with humbleness as well.

God bless you all.

Peace and love.

Sister what I found disturbing was you almost yelling at each and everybody here for 'ridiculing' while you didnt got into details. Who was ridiculing who ? How was they ridiculed? How did they redicule?

You need to be more specifik if you want people to take you seriously. I think most people here debate with humbleness, if you disagree then explain how and why instead of generalizing all the time.

I hope you understand what I mean. I hope I havent been harsh with you, but i found you rediculing people here as well.

Peace

[unknownuser]

Yusuf estes is a misguided hadither misleading others. He appears mostly on peace tv where they use him due to his American background and because he looks like a cosy grandfather which makes non-Muslims comfortable with him and Muslims proud that "Islam is prevailing in America". You are absolutely right, whenever they talk to non Muslims they mostly preach "basic good deeds" in order to make non Muslims comfortable with sunnism, which is their first step in misleading people. First make them comfortable with Islam, make them think that islam is a peaceful religion, a champion on humanity and about Being a good person. When the non Muslim is convinced with that they take the next step, trying to prove to him that Muhammad is the messenger of god, Quran and Hadith the word of god and the messenger, and when they have done that they take the third step which is to make the person submit to weird ideas like hijab, polygamy, slavery, child marriages, khalifah, stoning for adultery, stoning for apostates, the west being the enemy of Islam, music being evil, nonmuslims going to hell(all of these things they were hiding from the non Muslims to begin with). When the person is also convinced of the third and final step their mission is completed.

That's basically how they Brainwash non Muslims. But of course they would never get any succeed with doing that to former Muslims or Quran Aloners that is why they never try it on us. That is also why we are a bigger threat to them then non Muslims.

Peace Maha,

I have been in that situation twice, first with the Jehovah's Witnesses and then when I converted to Islam. Each time, once I got down to the "meat and potatoes" (so to speak) and found something strange or a conflicting idea, I would be immediately "counseled" to the "truth."

That is the way organized religion works...one has to become a mindless robot and accept everything they are told. What makes me the angriest is that they prey on people like me...ones who are searching...looking for a deeper, more meaningful connection with God.

I know there is a right way to worship God...I pray that he guides all of us safely to the truth.

Peace,

Amina

[Maha]

Peace Maha,

I have been in that situation twice, first with the Jehovah's Witnesses and then when I converted to Islam. Each time, once I got down to the "meat and potatoes" (so to speak) and found something strange or a conflicting idea, I would be immediately "counseled" to the "truth."

That is the way organized religion works...one has to become a mindless robot and accept everything they are told. What makes me the angriest is that they prey on people like me...ones who are searching...looking for a deeper, more meaningful connection with God.

I know there is a right way to worship God...I pray that he guides all of us safely to the truth.

Peace,

Amina

So true. How weird it may sound, my best friend is actually an jehovas witnesses. Many times she tries to preach for me because if i become a jehovas witnesses she can openly declare our close friendship which she cannot really do now because jehovas witnesses are not supposed to be best friends with a person who isnt a jehovas witnesses. But having said that, jehova witnesses are much more peacefull and relaxed then mainstream islam, jehovas witnesses dont support child marriages, stoning for adultery, polygyny and so on. The only thing I have against Jehovas Witnesses is the the practise of disowning for leaving their religion.

But organized religion is all about brain washing as you say and like politic, either you are with us or you are against us. Its pure evil in its essense. God is not partial as written in the bible, he doesnt support religions, he supports individuals who do good deeds.