Debating a Salafi
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I think the following warrants its own post
Excellent observation. Some years back I began to think the same. As I was reading the part bolded, Yusuf Estes came to mind. I used to listen to his nonsensical lectures online, then I listened to a "khutba" he gave at a local mosque around where I live. All his lectures to non-Muslims, were generally free of hate, arrogance, not as stupid, and somewhat made you want to listen. The khutba he gave opposing Quran-aloners was lolworthy. His thesis basically was that Quran-aloners are "shayaateens" (devils) since they just believe in Allah like the Devil does, and are not actually "practicing" the religion, just as the Devil doesn't either. To actually believe in Allah AND do that which Allah wants, you have to follow the Quran and the Sunnah. Lol.
No really, you can't hate me for laughing there considering what the Sunnah actually commands you to do.
Yusuf estes is a misguided hadither misleading others. He appears mostly on peace tv where they use him due to his American background and because he looks like a cosy grandfather which makes non-Muslims comfortable with him and Muslims proud that "Islam is prevailing in America". You are absolutely right, whenever they talk to non Muslims they mostly preach "basic good deeds" in order to make non Muslims comfortable with sunnism, which is their first step in misleading people. First make them comfortable with Islam, make them think that islam is a peaceful religion, a champion on humanity and about Being a good person. When the non Muslim is convinced with that they take the next step, trying to prove to him that Muhammad is the messenger of god, Quran and Hadith the word of god and the messenger, and when they have done that they take the third step which is to make the person submit to weird ideas like hijab, polygamy, slavery, child marriages, khalifah, stoning for adultery, stoning for apostates, the west being the enemy of Islam, music being evil, nonmuslims going to hell(all of these things they were hiding from the non Muslims to begin with). When the person is also convinced of the third and final step their mission is completed.
That's basically how they Brainwash non Muslims. But of course they would never get any succeed with doing that to former Muslims or Quran Aloners that is why they never try it on us. That is also why we are a bigger threat to them then non Muslims.
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Thanks Ayisha D
@Maha
Dear sister, I have no interest in playing cop or anything like that, I just don't like seeing people judging others and mocking them. This is not just a case with "Quranists"vs"Salafis", I generally don't like that since only The Almighty knows what we all are.Another thing is, people who follow Qur'an alone/God alone, should bear in mind these two ayahs
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
2563 And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say "Peace."
I don't think we should not debate, share our views with others and stand firm in our beliefs and defend them at any cost against attackers, but we should do it with humbleness as well.
God bless you all.
Peace and love.
Sister what I found disturbing was you almost yelling at each and everybody here for 'ridiculing' while you didnt got into details. Who was ridiculing who ? How was they ridiculed? How did they redicule?
You need to be more specifik if you want people to take you seriously. I think most people here debate with humbleness, if you disagree then explain how and why instead of generalizing all the time.
I hope you understand what I mean. I hope I havent been harsh with you, but i found you rediculing people here as well.
Peace
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Yusuf estes is a misguided hadither misleading others. He appears mostly on peace tv where they use him due to his American background and because he looks like a cosy grandfather which makes non-Muslims comfortable with him and Muslims proud that "Islam is prevailing in America". You are absolutely right, whenever they talk to non Muslims they mostly preach "basic good deeds" in order to make non Muslims comfortable with sunnism, which is their first step in misleading people. First make them comfortable with Islam, make them think that islam is a peaceful religion, a champion on humanity and about Being a good person. When the non Muslim is convinced with that they take the next step, trying to prove to him that Muhammad is the messenger of god, Quran and Hadith the word of god and the messenger, and when they have done that they take the third step which is to make the person submit to weird ideas like hijab, polygamy, slavery, child marriages, khalifah, stoning for adultery, stoning for apostates, the west being the enemy of Islam, music being evil, nonmuslims going to hell(all of these things they were hiding from the non Muslims to begin with). When the person is also convinced of the third and final step their mission is completed.
That's basically how they Brainwash non Muslims. But of course they would never get any succeed with doing that to former Muslims or Quran Aloners that is why they never try it on us. That is also why we are a bigger threat to them then non Muslims.
Peace Maha,
I have been in that situation twice, first with the Jehovah's Witnesses and then when I converted to Islam. Each time, once I got down to the "meat and potatoes" (so to speak) and found something strange or a conflicting idea, I would be immediately "counseled" to the "truth."
That is the way organized religion works...one has to become a mindless robot and accept everything they are told. What makes me the angriest is that they prey on people like me...ones who are searching...looking for a deeper, more meaningful connection with God.
I know there is a right way to worship God...I pray that he guides all of us safely to the truth.
Peace,
Amina
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Peace Maha,
I have been in that situation twice, first with the Jehovah's Witnesses and then when I converted to Islam. Each time, once I got down to the "meat and potatoes" (so to speak) and found something strange or a conflicting idea, I would be immediately "counseled" to the "truth."
That is the way organized religion works...one has to become a mindless robot and accept everything they are told. What makes me the angriest is that they prey on people like me...ones who are searching...looking for a deeper, more meaningful connection with God.
I know there is a right way to worship God...I pray that he guides all of us safely to the truth.
Peace,
Amina
So true. How weird it may sound, my best friend is actually an jehovas witnesses. Many times she tries to preach for me because if i become a jehovas witnesses she can openly declare our close friendship which she cannot really do now because jehovas witnesses are not supposed to be best friends with a person who isnt a jehovas witnesses. But having said that, jehova witnesses are much more peacefull and relaxed then mainstream islam, jehovas witnesses dont support child marriages, stoning for adultery, polygyny and so on. The only thing I have against Jehovas Witnesses is the the practise of disowning for leaving their religion.
But organized religion is all about brain washing as you say and like politic, either you are with us or you are against us. Its pure evil in its essense. God is not partial as written in the bible, he doesnt support religions, he supports individuals who do good deeds.
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So true. How weird it may sound, my best friend is actually an jehovas witnesses. Many times she tries to preach for me because if i become a jehovas witnesses she can openly declare our close friendship which she cannot really do now because jehovas witnesses are not supposed to be best friends with a person who isnt a jehovas witnesses. But having said that, jehova witnesses are much more peacefull and relaxed then mainstream islam, jehovas witnesses dont support child marriages, stoning for adultery, polygyny and so on. The only thing I have against Jehovas Witnesses is the the practise of disowning for leaving their religion.
But organized religion is all about brain washing as you say and like politic, either you are with us or you are against us. Its pure evil in its essense. God is not partial as written in the bible, he doesnt support religions, he supports individuals who do good deeds.
Maha,
I could send a PM eqivalent to a novel on the things JW's believe that is not in accordance with Islam...which is the reason I left. They are almost there...if they would just let go of their worship of Jesus (they believe he is the son of God)...
Peace,
Amina
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Maha,
I could send a PM eqivalent to a novel on the things JW's believe that is not in accordance with Islam...which is the reason I left. They are almost there...if they would just let go of their worship of Jesus (they believe he is the son of God)...
Peace,
Amina
check my message sis
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That is OK if you differ and you are right that only Allah knows what is in their hearts and He said that in AlQuraan.
Its so heartwarming to see such beautiful words of understanding here )
Let me tell you an incident. Once me and my friends discussing 6145 and they all stuck on hadith saying that Mohammed already said, whole pig is haraam, I was like hypno. I said this is Allah who is saying only flesh of pig is haraam not whole pig, they never care, they said when we already saw in hadith that whole pig is haraam, we don't wanna listen anything because that hadith explains this aayat that we cannot understand directly. Finally, me and one of my friend, taken the aayat as guidance and they all took hadith instead.
If Bukhary collected tons of hadith and disregarded close to 90% of them, then what "criterion" did he use to "disregard/dump" them? If he used Qur'an, then rest of the so called "Hadith" cannot be the "commentary" of Qur'an! To me that logic of "commentary on Qur'an" but was brought into being (filtered) using Qur'an is flawed (Subjective opinion). If all this is so, then how can anyone accept Hadiths as commentary to Qur'an when they were random sayings filtered using Qur'an (or something = not divine)?
After a year or so, same thing happened with another person, he listened to many many aayaats, I was showing him for almost 3 hours and he agreed to all of them , surprisingly when we came to 6145 again on that pig thing. He rejects and said I have to study, I cannot say anything and he left. After few years when we met again, I asked him why you are preaching hadith in mosques when we already saw many aayaats on this and you also agreed to that. He replied, I was agreeing but when you said only flesh of pig is haraam, then I realized that you are misguided.
I said, what about other aayaats that you have seen for yourself. He said, no, I understood that you are misguiding me.Hmmm...I guess he had some kind of a prejudice to Pigs which prevented him from pondering over other things in Qur'an. Makes me wonder, what is he taking as authority? Words in God's book or his prejudice of pigs that perhaps he believes is divinely ruled? (Of course I am not trying to insult him at all...people do become subjects to prejudice at weak moments I guess)
Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded we genitally mutilate boys and/or girls.
Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded killing a person who leaves Islam, especially the ever-so-corrupted mainstream version.
Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded we stone people to death if they have sex outside marriage.
Allah accepts that we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded we're to believe Muhammad practiced and endorsed the jaw-dropping nonsense you'll find in just Bukhari and/or Muslim.
Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah's dress code for women is basically a very loose sack with a slit for the eyes, or simply the face showing, free of make-up or brow trims (I wonder then, what was the point of Allah saying to lower our gaze from the opposite sex to begin with?).
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Its so weird to see them eager to circumcise people and to use science in it to make it look like "your only choice", the idea female circumcision just makes me scream (even though I am a male P). Then when its something else, they suddenly disregard science altogether! I do not know this for sure, but I think I live in a community that sees Islam as circumcision, however crude that might sound. I have seen people who have argued with me saying "No, do you know what to do to become a Muslim? You need to head to that place where circumcision is usually done" When I was trying to tell them of Islam as submission to God alone and Qur'an only as guidance. I have seen people discriminating between Christians and Muslims as (a Muslim - I dunno if to label him that after that incident), I am not going to pray in a place that is in the vicinity of people who do not wash their organs after call of nature (not his exact words, but I had enough...). I have also heard people's account of how horrible circumcision was to them in the old days (where they didn't sedate - they still don't I guess). Now I guess many see it as a rite of manhood (Only male circumcision where I come from) like some Amazon tribes...Yet many(some?) are not okay with shaving chest hair or getting a tattoo
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I heard Zakir Naik in his Oxford Lecture answering an American about how this is not the practice in Hadiths themselves, but I dunno if he means it or not. In the same video he talks to a Christian (Missionary?) that he should ask the specific "Islamic Country" why they are not permitting Christians to preach their religion (...and escapes without a direct answer?), then in another lecture he speaks how its like a principal who only hires a math teacher who says 2+2 =4 and not 2+2 =3 or 2+2 = 5 because he claims that in Religion, it is sure Islam is the truth and other religions cannot be preached in an "Islamic State/Country".
Personal Note At first I liked the guy very much when in an Indian lecture he answered something like "No, there are no subdivisions or sects in Islam" and how he knew so much about many religion and how he could cite verses and chapter number with ease. -
I remember asking someone about the shahadah part of "Muhammad Rasoolullah" and asked him why we should say that if we are Muslims and what would Abraham have said or the people of Abraham since they were Muslims and they didn't know about Muhammad (Now I know there are people who claim that Muhammad Rasolullah part was there from the beginning from Adam). He got angry and I gave up hope for any reasonable argument and he ended it by saying "laws and rites" were different from time to time for each Apostle so they said their respective Apostle with the shadadah...whichever way I didn't wanna make him angry anymore and I left the topic.
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but I dunno if he means it or not. In the same video he talks to a Christian (Missionary?) that he should ask the specific "Islamic Country" why they are not permitting Christians to preach their religion (...and escapes without a direct answer?), then in another lecture he speaks how its like a principal who only hires a math teacher who says 2+2 =4 and not 2+2 =3 or 2+2 = 5 because he claims that in Religion, it is sure Islam is the truth and other religions cannot be preached in an "Islamic State/Country".
Personal Note At first I liked the guy very much when in an Indian lecture he answered something like "No, there are no subdivisions or sects in Islam" and how he knew so much about many religion and how he could cite verses and chapter number with ease.OMG did you also noticed it rotfl rotfl When I was a sunni zakir naik was my hero rotfl and i saw tons of lectures of him where he himself preached that non-muslims shall never be allowed to preach in muslim countries because they dont preach 2+2=4 , and then suddenly i saw him in oxford university totally avoiding the question and I was like WTF
That is because, as I earlier said, when zakir naik talk to non-muslims, especially non-muslim westerners, he carefully avoid to mention the negative aspects of sunnism. But when he talks to fellow sunnis, he is much more honest. Then I dicovered that he was lying right in the face of the audience for instance he said that a man in sunnism is allowed to have 4 wives because there are hundred of millions more women then men in the world and therefore on the edge of becoming prostitutes rotfl
Now the problem is just, that when I checked the statistics for myself, it actually occured that its excately opposite which is the case there are more men then women in the world. Its only when you reach above the age of 65 that you find more women than men... so I wonder if it was the grannies zakir naik called prostitutes ? and therefore very young men shall marry very old grannies to help them out of prostitution?And just look what he says here
Question to zakir naik Why Is pork prohibited in islam?
Zakir naik answer PIG IS THE MOST SHAMELESS ANIMAL
The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say ?you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife.? If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs.So according to zakir naik, if you eat pig you will become a wife swapper
It was then I realized that zakir naik is nothing more then a ugly bearded sick liar selling his religion for a cheap price..he has perfected the art of propaganda. This entails maintaining an edifice of scholarship while frequently using half-truths, out-of-context passages and false statistics. It also involves carefully avoiding debate with any serious debaters that oppose him, like Sam Shamoun or Ali Sina.
but good you could understand him.. i mostly found it very hard to understand his english.
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And just look what he says here
Question to zakir naik Why Is pork prohibited in islam?
Zakir naik answer PIG IS THE MOST SHAMELESS ANIMAL
The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say ?you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife.? If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs.So according to zakir naik, if you eat pig you will become a wife swapper
In all my years as an eater of pork never did this occur to me or anyone around me, is it only for Americans I wonder? rotfl
It was then I realized that zakir naik is nothing more then a ugly bearded sick liar selling his religion for a cheap price..he has perfected the art of propaganda. This entails maintaining an edifice of scholarship while frequently using half-truths, out-of-context passages and false statistics. It also involves carefully avoiding debate with any serious debaters that oppose him, like Sam Shamoun or Ali Sina.
but good you could understand him.. i mostly found it very hard to understand his english.
I think he sells for what he sees as a high price, financially, but what he is lying about and promoting is selling his soul for a cheap price......and taking millions who daren't think for themselves with him.
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In all my years as an eater of pork never did this occur to me or anyone around me, is it only for Americans I wonder? rotfl
lol...His conclusion (I didn't see that video) sounds very illogical P
Wikipedia claims he is one of the advisers of the Salafi doctrine.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakir_Naik -
Is there any chance of a live prime time TV debate between Edip and Yusuf Estes? !
Oh my goodness...I would pay to see that. Really.
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Salaam
It is amazing to see such praises for the distant caliph of false prophet Rashad Khalifa, the best that can be said about his personality "an intelligent person, with arrogance and jealousy"
What did he said new? what did he added? same bunch of people who are against Hadith and against Praise for prophet were clapping for him here.for arrogance read and watch his debates and for jealousy you can read material against Harun Yahya.
Debate with ayman on 19 is interesting read too.and
Maha wrote about Zakir Naik
It also involves carefully avoiding debate with any serious debaters that oppose him, like Sam Shamoun or Ali Sina.Ali Sina rotfl
You might not agree with Zakir Naik but calling Ali Sina a serious debater is itself non seriousness
and sam Shamoun? what about him...have you seen the debate between his good friend Dr.WilliAM cAMPBELL AND zAKIR? What else can he add
PRAISE BE TO MUHAMMAD THE RASUL AND SERVANT OF ALLAH THE ALMIGHTY
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lol...His conclusion (I didn't see that video) sounds very illogical
Wikipedia claims he is one of the advisers of the Salafi doctrine.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakir_NaikIf you carefully listen to his bad english, you will realize that he is indeed a salafi financed by salafies in Saudi Arabia . But his standard answer is that he is just a "muslim" and that there are no "sects" in islam.. He says that for 3 reasons
- It sounds good
- It makes mainstream Sunnis and sufis to listen to him and make non-Muslims think that he is speaking on behalf of "authentic islam"
- Salafi is a negative term among non-salafis.
Pece
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If you carefully listen to his bad english, you will realize that he is indeed a salafi financed by salafies in Saudi Arabia . But his standard answer is that he is just a "muslim" and that there are no "sects" in islam.. He says that for 3 reasons
- It sounds good
- It makes mainstream Sunnis and sufis to listen to him and make non-Muslims think that he is speaking on behalf of "authentic islam"
- Salafi is a negative term among non-salafis.
Pece
Aren't Salafis the ones who wear their pants above the ankle so that they don't drag the ground?
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^Yeah, they're the hopeless bunch that think if you're a man, whatever is below your ankle is "in the hellfire" (so basically just the part that passes the ankles is in the fire...rotfl) and if you're a woman, it's vice versa. You can't show your ankles, otherwise...I dunno, your ankles will be in the fire. Who knows - don't remember reading an exact punishment for that, but they could always make up and try justifying one. After all, it deals with women.
Lol @ Zakir's fatwa on pig meat. It's so hilarious I dedicated 5 minutes of my time lol'ing to it, and more lol @ Estes being picked to talk since he appears as a "cozy grandpa". So true. This guy's hopeless as one said. You know someone is with a beard that unkempt and long, and saying Muhammad's name 20 times every 5 minutes while saying Noah's, Abraham's, Isaac's, and Joseph's name...0 times. Whatever happened to viewing the prophets and messengers as equal.
Raaajah, Khalifa hasn't been mentioned once in the topic. Also no one comes close to praising this guy as the mainstream Muslims basically say things that pretty much deify Muhammad. You'll also notice Khalifa never claimed to bring anything new. He did a good job getting Muslims with a brain to only accept Quran (although much of his Quranic interpretation seemed traditional). Other than the 19 thing which was mainly trying to get the Muslim to further think the Quran was the only divine thing in Islam (not that all the arguments against the sunnah/hadith weren't enough), that's it.
I agree with all replies to my posts since my last visit.
-Edit- On an unrelated note I watched The Stoning of Soraya M. the other night (. It's so messed up (the practice of stoning) and I cried in areas. The main bad guy (the husband, who falsely accused his wife of adultery just so he doesn't have to spend on her anymore) in the film I'd soccer-kick in the balls. They literally declared simply talking nicely to and hand-touching a man who wasn't the husband as punishable by this pagan shit (if you're concerned of spoilers, the trailer would've revealed that much). Here's the box art
http//s017.radikal.ru/i413/1206/3e/214c4fbbf886.jpg
It's torrent-able so if anyone wants to see how like dogs Sunni/Shiite Muslims in the Middle East can be, you can see it. There are even torrents of it in HD.
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Meteora...I bet he didn't even have the required witnesses, did he? When I pointed that out to my husband in the Qur'an, he suddenly stopped spouting off about stoning for adultery. Maybe he thought men could just walk in there and not have to take any responsibility...nope...a man has to take an oath that he is not lying.
244 And those who accuse the independent females, then they do not
bring forth four witnesses, you shall lash them with eighty lashes,
and do not accept their testimony ever; and those are the wicked.246 And those who accuse their spouses, but they have no witnesses
except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them is to be
equivalent to that of four witnesses if it is sworn by God that he is
being truthful.247 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon him if he is of the
liars.248 And the punishment will be averted from her if she bears witness
four times by God that he is of the liars.
249 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon her if he is speaking
the truth.Peace,
Amina