Cartoon and Short film Competition (2012)
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True.
The 'crowd' and 'mob' has never shown great wisdom, thought or intelligence throughout history. They've always been controlled by emotion and chaotic dynamic patterns.
And also, Edip is NOT having intentions of instigating violence. He is not out there to insult the prophet (who is anyway dead and cannot be insulted). He is asking for POSITIVE cartoons, not ridiculing ones. That's hell of a difference. The difference lies in the intent. Edip's intention is good. I believe he aims to
- Lessen the level of taboo that surrounds the cartoons, and thereby, over time, disarm the sheepish, insane and emotional tendencies to misdirected and unjustified violence.
- By taking the edge off the cartoon taboo... he is taking away power from those who indeed use cartoons in a ridiculing way.
- Indirectly expose the madness of hadith and show the world that there is more to islam and quran than what people think. That is, to give people a chance to find out about real islam.
There will always be resistance to change. Always. It stems from fear. But change is life and life is change. No change means death. One can never advance and develop by resisting change. When you move forward to grow, you will have to move through your current states. It cannot be avoided. Avoiding cartoons will just mean that we accept the current situation, and accept that it should not change. Truth and the exposure of falsehood will not be realized through fear and avoidance of change.
Edip's work is commendable, no matter the details of his understanding. In my opinion there should be more people having a spirit like that of Edip's. He's doing a wonderful job in promoting the truth and exposing old, stagnant and mad things in religion.
Cheers
Dear Zulf
You have perfectly summarized my intention, better than I could express it. Thank you.. Can you please send me the above message via email and let me know whether you mind if I qoute a portion of it all or of it? Whether should I use your real name or full name... I want to add this to the end of the article...
Peace,
Edip -
Zulf
And also, Edip is NOT having intentions of instigating violence. He is not out there to insult the prophet (who is anyway dead and cannot be insulted). He is asking for POSITIVE cartoons, not ridiculing ones. That's hell of a difference. The difference lies in the intent. Edip's intention is good.If your father and grand father could be insulted so can be Prophet, only the body vanishes and the mutation takes place. I think you have not read his following statement otherwise you would had not so unjustly defended his intentions.
while the right box should depict the negative images of Muhammad derived from descriptive or prescriptive hearsay statements narrated in Hadith and Sunna sources.
One who is drawing negative image even a child knows is from the stories and not from Quran because Quran doesnot carries such details, then to further highlight and pursue the Muslims for what Jews, Missionaries and others are doing, is it a GOOD intention? to divide further the Muslims and make them further angry are these good intentions?
Edip's intention is bad!
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Zulf
If your father and grand father could be insulted so can be Prophet, only the body vanishes and the mutation takes place. I think you have not read his following statement otherwise you would had not so unjustly defended his intentions.Dear Raaajah,
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What do you mean "if my father and grand father could be insulted"?
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If dead people can hear and perceive what's going on in this world, who says that they, after leaving this world, would still be at this relatively low level of getting emotional and hurt? Wouldn't they be beyond that? Wouldn't they be at a more advanced and higher spiritual level? Or are we projecting our own emotions on them?
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Yeah, I didn't pay much attention to that line which you highlighted, but it still goes with the agenda I proposed, namely telling the truth of where-from the sick things in traditional Islam (Sunnism etc) come.
One who is drawing negative image even a child knows is from the stories and not from Quran because Quran doesnot carries such details, then to further highlight and pursue the Muslims for what Jews, Missionaries and others are doing, is it a GOOD intention? to divide further the Muslims and make them further angry are these good intentions?
Edip's intention is bad!
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Nope and no. That's not the ground reality as per my own experienceForget about children; even adults don't know that such stories that the negative images are based on, are from hadith and not the quran. The point to be highlighted is that hadith and quran is not two parts of that which should be called islam in arabic. I know myself that common moderate people many times cannot tell what is from hadith, what is considered sunna and what is written in the quran. They just follow random things they hear from other people, often out of more or less fear. There is a very low quranic literacy, unfortunately. Traditional Muslims don't know these things, and they mix'em all up. And then the islamophobes are equally, or more, clueless and only pick up the nasty stuff, whether correct or false. The islamophobes are served juicy stuff on a silver plate, and then the decent Muslims get a bad image. How can this be allowed to continue? Is this fair? No it's not.
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We have to see clearly what's going on here. Are we to sugar-coat and give excuses for what traditional Islam is promoting, or are we to promote what the quran is saying? You cannot do both! The negetive half of the cartoon would only serve the purpose to expose the FALSE things that people attribute to Allah (along side the positive cartoon). The point is to show the difference, which is the reality. How can this be bad? Should we be more protective of what people falsely invent in the name of Allah, or should we be promoting the truth as given by Allah? This is what it is all about. Is Allah's message more important or is the fairy tales of the "Ummah" and the self proclaimed Islamic priests more important?
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If it is so important to not make people angry... then the whole concept of Quran-alone should be scrapped and not discussed, because Quran-Alone is making Muslims much more angry than the tenets of Christianity and Hinduism. It's not a point of systems of belief. It's all about that people feel that their own identity is questioned and attacked. Is Quran-alone worse than Christianity and Hinduism?... Quran-alone is based on the quran for god's sake! If Quran-alone isn't worse than Christianity and Hinduism, then why does it enrage Muslims so much more than Christianity and Hinduism do? Just think about it.
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Edip, trying to do his best in communicating the message of the quran.. cannot be considered having bad intentions. How could it? He's not advocating the persecution of anyone, or ridiculing, or punishment. He just wants to set the record straight. Then anyone can follow whatever they want. No compulsion. Again, should we pamper and suck up to those who follow that which Allah has not sanctioned, or should we tell about how things really are? Oil and water.
Peace!
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Dear Raaajah,
- What do you mean "if my father and grand father could be insulted"?
I know it is hard to understand for the people who have closed their eyes and ears well let us just see
Zulf Your father was a Bastard! a womanizer and pedophile. What will be your reaction to this statement
In the movie they several times call the Prophet that and I do not agree, I am angry I really am angry along with billions of Muslims, because even if some one says that to my own grand father even though his body is not here. I am still angry because that is an allegation which he cannot defend I am the one who will defend it by Pen, by protest. when some one calls the Prophet Bastard he very well knows that he can bring no harm to the prophet he is just propmting the Muslims for violence.
Similarly Edip is doing that by starting cartoonist campaign.
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I know it is hard to understand for the people who have closed their eyes and ears well let us just see
Zulf Your father was a Bastard! do you agree?
First of all, there is an important difference between idiots insulting someone else or their relatives, and insulting to God.
God himself does not want idiots to defend (more accurately, pretend to defend) God against other idiots in the mud.. God wants intelligent people to leave the presence of lowly people. That is it. None can harm God nor can harm dead people.
But, when an idiot insults another living human being, it is another story. It is up to the insulted human being to ignore the idiot or file law suit against the above-mentioned idiot, if he is harmed financially or personally as the direct consequence of such an insult.
My recommendation to Zulf is this Please ignore idiots of all colors and religions, and let them drawn in the filth coming from their mouth.
Peace,
Edip -
We have to see clearly what's going on here. Are we to sugar-coat and give excuses for what traditional Islam is promoting, or are we to promote what the quran is saying? You cannot do both! The negetive half of the cartoon would only serve the purpose to expose the FALSE things that people attribute to Allah (along side the positive cartoon). The point is to show the difference, which is the reality. How can this be bad? Should we be more protective of what people falsely invent in the name of Allah, or should we be promoting the truth as given by Allah? This is what it is all about. Is Allah's message more important or is the fairy tales of the "Ummah" and the self proclaimed Islamic priests more important?
Now let us take your point # 5
The purpose of negative half you have mentioned can be achieved only through
MOCKING prophet through cartoons the way Edip wants, try to understand there are many better better ways. This person is asking for Negative images of Prophet, the same images which have taken lives of more than 100 people till now and billions of collateral damage. To EDIP to care about any one's sentiments is of no worth as I have quoted him,
Allah's message is more important off course but not the way EDIP wants it by mocking Prophet peace be upon him in the name of Quran alone and taking advantage of "INNOCENCE OF MUSLIMS"
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God himself does not want idiots to defend (more accurately, pretend to defend) God against other idiots in the mud.. God wants intelligent people to leave the presence of lowly people. That is it. None can harm God nor can harm dead people
When some one starts calling himself intelligent and others lowly then the time is very near, which history shows us either he will go insane or announce his Prophet hood.
My Prophet Muhammad Peace is upon him is not dead and niether is any soul, they have tasted death and mutaion has taken place.
I just said some bad words for Zulf's grand father, to check the reaction and first reaction was from a person who is instigating Muslims by Insulting the personality whom they love more than their parents.
You called me Idiot and low people. Imagine when you ask for negative images of Prophet peace is upon him what will we call you?
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I know it is hard to understand for the people who have closed their eyes and ears well let us just see
- Well, many different things are hard to understand for people with closed eyes n ears. That's a universal truth indeed.
Zulf Your father was a Bastard! a womanizer and pedophile. What will be your reaction to this statement
In the movie they several times call the Prophet that and I do not agree, I am angry I really am angry along with billions of Muslims, because even if some one says that to my own grand father even though his body is not here. I am still angry because that is an allegation which he cannot defend I am the one who will defend it by Pen, by protest. when some one calls the Prophet Bastard he very well knows that he can bring no harm to the prophet he is just propmting the Muslims for violence.
Similarly Edip is doing that by starting cartoonist campaign.
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My reaction is zero, since I know you are just saying it to prove a point, and not actually insult me. On the other hand, had I known you were just out to insult me, I would have reacted in disappointed amazement to the petty and unfounded attack, and then wondered what thing in your mind and past could have create an attitude build-up for you to end up saying something like that to someone. I would not have taken it to myself, because I know it is totally untrue, and I know it's not really about me. I can say this because it wouldn't have been the first time I come across jealousy and the accompanying insults, open or back stabbing.
And I wouldn't have caused physical injury to you, or unrelated people, even if I had the chance. -
Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the 19.org cartoon invitation has anything to do with the movie "innocence of muslims" as such. Let's separate the two things. Had our discussion been the same if this movie had never been created? The cartoon arguments still stand, and are not part of the movie issue.
I'm not either condoning the movie. I also think it is cheap, sad, bad, disgusting, evil and a result of a sick and miserable mind, so I can understand the anger about the movie, absolutely. But we are discussing the 19.org cartoons here, not the movie. There is no question about the intent and effect of the movie. The only connection is that the prophet is "involved" in both and that there is a discussion about how far people can and should go in a response to things they find insulting. The posts I have made are only focused on the cartoons of 19.org, not the movie. That's another discussion.
Now let us take your point # 5
The purpose of negative half you have mentioned can be achieved only through
MOCKING prophet through cartoons the way Edip wants, try to understand there are many better better ways. This person is asking for Negative images of Prophet, the same images which have taken lives of more than 100 people till now and billions of collateral damage. To EDIP to care about any one's sentiments is of no worth as I have quoted him,
Allah's message is more important off course but not the way EDIP wants it by mocking Prophet peace be upon him in the name of Quran alone and taking advantage of "INNOCENCE OF MUSLIMS"
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Would it have been ok with you, or with the general muslim populace, to make only totally positive cartoons of the prophet. I doubt it. People would react against the prophet being depicted at all. So I think the issue goes deeper than mockery, insults and evil crusaders.
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It's called mocking when you mock someone. If you instead highlight what is an insult on one hand, and what is the qurans version on the other hand, then where is the mocking? No-one is aiming to mock the prophet... that's a deliberate misunderstanding! That's not at all the point of the "negative half" of the cartoon pair! The whole point is that this should be clear from the cartoon. This is the whole message... to denounce the insulting narrations about the prophet (which comes from Islamic sources) and put forward the positive and truthful ones. To shy away from the "sensitive" parts of hadith literature will not make it go away. Instead you have bastards like that movie producer come out and actually insult the prophet. That movie is actually a deliberate insult. The cartoons on the other hand just aim at showing the true story of the prophet, i.e. the positive story... by setting the record straight and expose and denounce the stupid narrations that are out there.
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What do you think about my other points?
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It is important to understand the different parties involved in these issues. The party that carries out an insult (like that movie for example), is NOT out to insult the prophet. This is very important to understand. They are out to insult the followers of the prophet... i.e. those who so easily get insulted. So it is not about the prophet in the first place, but the prophet is only used as a tool to enrage the followers. Unfortunately, the prophet's followers fail to understand this. Had they been understanding this and had they been mature about themselves enough, having good self-esteem and a solid character, the insulting party wouldn't have been able to achieve anything. Instead the followers make it all about the prophet, and not about themselves (even though it is ALL about their own identity). On top of this, they believe that the prophet is aware, but cannot defend himself, and therefor they are forced to defend him. So they put themselves in a situation where they completely lack power and control. Since they have given all their god-given mental powers of freedom away, they are not able to control themselves and their situation, and hence will react like a puppet to any insulter's insults. What a miserable situation. That is the OPPOSITE of freedom. But this is not a freedom that anyone can withhold from you without your consent. You have to give it away... and so you can also take it back, if you decide to. Emotions, insults, ego and the mind, are things that play HUGE parts in our perception of reality. We should start doing our cleaning inside ourselves... and then see how Allah will clean our outer world for us.
Well, that's how I see it. Others may of course disagree, and that's ok. And I also think that the issue with Islam and Muslim's reputation and also their self image, is a very complicated matter which involves things such as colonialism, politics and religious cold wars, but in the end, Allah is here, and Allah is fair and just, but we have to work on getting closer to Allah and not only blame outside sources. Once we surrender to Allah (if we understand what that means), fantastic doors will open up to happiness and freedom. Isn't Allah able to give us that? Who is preventing it? Who is preventing Allah to give it to us? Are Allah's "hands" tied, or is it perhaps us that are not accepting Allah's blessings? Can we really blame things on "them"? Is "them" standing in between us and Allah's blessings?
Peace!
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Maha you even don't know the difference between freedom of expression and garbage
read my post in the the following link
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604364.30
One mans freedom of expression is another mans garbage.
And it's fine if it's just kept at the realms of that.
PEACE
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Dear Zulf
It is important to understand the different parties involved in these issues. The party that carries out an insult (like that movie for example), is NOT out to insult the prophet. This is very important to understand. They are out to insult the followers of the prophet... i.e. those who so easily get insulted. So it is not about the prophet in the first place, but the prophet is only used as a tool to enrage the followers. Unfortunately, the prophet's followers fail to understand this. Had they been understanding this and had they been mature about themselves enough, having good self-esteem and a solid character, the insulting party wouldn't have been able to achieve anything. Instead the followers make it all about the prophet, and not about themselves (even though it is ALL about their own identity)
The same can be said for the cartoon invitation of EDIP. "prophet is only used as a tool to enrage the followers" deliberately. His intentions are very clear from his writings his speeches and his debates and you are just playing Kings knight here.
Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the 19.org cartoon invitation has anything to do with the movie "innocence of muslims" as such. Let's separate the two things. Had our discussion been the same if this movie had never been created? The cartoon arguments still stand, and are not part of the movie issue.
You stand corrected! we cannot separate the two; both insult the Prophet and his followers, both make mockery of Prophet and his followers.
If you could just sincerely answer my 1 question after reciting the beautiful verse of Quran and stop defending this person without knowing his intentions, I will be grate full to you, let us see how Balanced you are
"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious For thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. 6125
Is Edip following this Ayat while inviting people to draw NEGATIVE IMAGES OF PROPHET peace is upon him? What message he is trying to get across and how?
Well, that's how I see it. Others may of course disagree, and that's ok.
Yeah that's ok buddy.
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Dear Zulf
The same can be said for the cartoon invitation of EDIP. "prophet is only used as a tool to enrage the followers" deliberately. His intentions are very clear from his writings his speeches and his debates and you are just playing Kings knight here.
You stand corrected! we cannot separate the two; both insult the Prophet and his followers, both make mockery of Prophet and his followers.
If you could just sincerely answer my 1 question after reciting the beautiful verse of Quran and stop defending this person without knowing his intentions, I will be grate full to you, let us see how Balanced you are
"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious For thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. 6125
Is Edip following this Ayat while inviting people to draw NEGATIVE IMAGES OF PROPHET peace is upon him? What message he is trying to get across and how?
Yeah that's ok buddy.
Why are you so angry and outraged all the time? Is it freeminds you are angry on or is it brother edip? You seems so angry and rude that its almost disgusting.
I kindly advice you to control yourself and your anger. This is a debate forum where everyone is entitled to have their opinions regardless of whether you agree or disagree with them. I hope you will respect that.
Peace
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If you could just sincerely answer my 1 question after reciting the beautiful verse of Quran and stop defending this person without knowing his intentions, I will be grate full to you, let us see how Balanced you are
"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious For thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. 6125
Is Edip following this Ayat while inviting people to draw NEGATIVE IMAGES OF PROPHET peace is upon him? What message he is trying to get across and how?
Alright, I shall lead by good example and sincerely answer your one question, as requested. Let's see how balanced I am... though I'm not really depending on the judgement.
The verse you were quoting is indeed beautiful. It invites people to discuss things in constructive, balanced and transparent ways. Let me give the following points, leading up to my answer
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What is Edip inviting people to draw, along side the positive quran based depictions? He is asking people to openly and frankly re-tell what hadith and sunna is saying about the prophet. So who is actually producing negativity? It is the hadith-promoters aka Muslims! He is not inviting people to make up negativity. He is inviting people to show what Islam says about its own prophet! Now who is the real slanderer? Who invented these lies against the prophet? Not Edip and the potential cartoonists at least!
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According to 6125, we are to discuss things in ways that are best and most gracious. Since, according to you, we cannot separate 19.org's cartoons and that movie, then I'd like to ask you, and please answer sincerely, whether or not you think the masses are responding in a 'best and most gracious' way when devastating property and lives just because of uncontrolled emotions.
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19.org wants to bring out the truth, while it seems you want to hide the truth, in order to not step on any Sunni's toes. Is it not proper to EXPOSE the lies that have been attributed to Allah, the prophet and the quran? The 19.org cartoons ONLY tries to expose the lies, and promote the truth, by openly showing both sides so that people can make up their own minds using their God-given common sense and heart. This is a very transparent method, which is totally opposite to the covert ways of those who invent and spread lies, regardless if they are the "external enemy" i.e. the Islamaphobes or the "internal" traitors and corruptors i.e. the Hadith-followers.
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How come you think you know Edip's intentions more than me? Enlighten me!
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You were asking what message Edip is trying to get across. Well, if it is not obvious by now and if you cannot fathom that Edip is trying to i) expose those who invent lies about the prophet, Allah and the quran, and ii) the showcase the real and positive character of the prophet, then let's leave it at that.
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So, Edip doesn't invite negative images of the prophet. Instead he is trying to put all cards on the table. By doing this, he is not going against that verse. And in case you still think that he is going against that verse, then remember that the hadith-promoters are also going against that verse, but many, many times more. And Allah knows what's in our hearts. Thank God.
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Just as a final spin off, how do you suggest that Edip SHOULD have going about in an effort to expose the lies in hadith and sunna against the prophet, Allah and the quran? What method would you propose?
Yeah that's ok buddy.
Oh that's great to hear. Now I shall relax.
sun -
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Is Edip following this Ayat while inviting people to draw NEGATIVE IMAGES OF PROPHET peace is upon him? What message he is trying to get across and how?
Yeah that's ok buddy.Thanks for the reminder... I am going to correct that part. I agree with you that such an invitation is not appropriate and I would never publish such disparaging cartoons, especially against any prophet or messenger of God. Knowing that many islamophobes, warmongers and provocateurs have already published many ugly cartoons based on hadith stories, I deleted that paragraph from the terms of the competition.
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When some one starts calling himself intelligent and others lowly then the time is very near, which history shows us either he will go insane or announce his Prophet hood.
My Prophet Muhammad Peace is upon him is not dead and niether is any soul, they have tasted death and mutaion has taken place.
I just said some bad words for Zulf's grand father, to check the reaction and first reaction was from a person who is instigating Muslims by Insulting the personality whom they love more than their parents.
You called me Idiot and low people. Imagine when you ask for negative images of Prophet peace is upon him what will we call you?
Dude its so obvious that you was raised as an hadither.
Stop making personal attacks on people and involve their grandfathers in the discussion.Fine if you love Muhammad, but I don't love muhammad - for god sake I never met that man. Then why shall I force myself to love someone I never met or someone I don't have any knowledge about?
Keep your love to yourself and stop expecting others to love Your idol.
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From 19.org
RAAAJAH ?Is Edip following this Ayat while inviting people to draw NEGATIVE IMAGES OF PROPHET peace is upon him? What message he is trying to get across and how??
EDIP Thanks for the reminder? I am going to correct that part. I agree with you that such an invitation is not appropriate and I would never publish such disparaging cartoons, especially against any prophet or messenger of God. Knowing that many islamophobes, warmongers and provocateurs have already published many ugly cartoons based on hadith stories, I deleted that paragraph from the terms of the competition.
Thanks! that was a wise and nice decision welcome
MAha
Dude its so obvious that you was raised as an hadither.
Stop making personal attacks on people and involve their grandfathers in the discussion.Fine if you love Muhammad, but I don't love muhammad - for god sake I never met that man. Then why shall I force myself to love someone I never met or someone I don't have any knowledge about?
Keep your love to yourself and stop expecting others to love Your idol.
No, I never was raised as Hadith follower! WRONG! You seriously lack sense of judging people from their writings.
No one is asking you to love any one but
I Love Muhammad! Peace is upon him
Zulf
after the comments of Edip I think i need not to answer your post.