Qiblah...searched but found no answer

mmkhan

Thanks...I also like how you don't "give" us the answer...you make us go and look them up ourselves. There is a great lesson in that, because so many people just accept what they are told instead of actually reading or looking something up themselves. I know converts that are studying the Qur'an with alims (I think that means person of knowledge) and even though they are learning the Arabic language, they accept the translation that they are given. I would think that once someone learns the language they would be able to see that something is wrong.

Peace,

Amina

Peace Amina,

Thank you for your nice and kind words.

Very true, many people who learn Arabic language don't use it to understand AlQuraan by themselves, they are so dependent on others that they are afraid to take their own decisions. In fact, they have been taught that way by so called a3lims.

May Allah bless you and may He increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Zulf

As per Quran we are not allowed to blame shaytayn for our lack of discernment

Yes, this is very important to remember, even on a mundane, every-day level. Human beings have a tendency to blame everything on other people, events etc. By blaming things outside yourself, you rob yourself of power. No matter what or who caused the issue, rightfully or wrongfully, one must take responsibility by taking charge of the now, and not give in or give up. One must take charge of one's own life here and now, even at the most basic level of taking charge of one's own mind! That's where it starts. By blaming, we resist reality, we hide and deny. This will only lead to stagnation and suffering.

Many leaders of the islamic world have no fear of judgement day due to ego, delusion
anger or greed, therefore they behave in a manner of unaccountability. The people must abandon
these leaders before it's too late.

No fear of the judgement day, to me, means that i) they don't really believe in it, ii) they have misunderstood it. I think it is a huge mistake to see the judgement day (which I find is a misleading name for it) as a point in time where we will be judged according to what we have done. We should instead think of the judgement as something ONGOING that takes place every second. The record is being written RIGHT NOW. But the final consequences will be realized at a point in the future... but there will be no judgment in the sense of weighing evidence for and against. All evidence is in the record, which is completed and closed already at that time. Only the execution of the effect will happen then. The record will provoke the only possible effect (judgement) as per Allah's divine and natural system of reality and balances, in which mercy is included. Even mercy will be fairly given. So it is not wise to dismiss the judgement day as something in the future. It's happening right now. And those who cannot grasp that, will not take heed.... and they will keep playing their sinister games of ego and delusion.

Peace and cheers!

unknownuser

Yes, this is very important to remember, even on a mundane, every-day level. Human beings have a tendency to blame everything on other people, events etc. By blaming things outside yourself, you rob yourself of power. No matter what or who caused the issue, rightfully or wrongfully, one must take responsibility by taking charge of the now, and not give in or give up. One must take charge of one's own life here and now, even at the most basic level of taking charge of one's own mind! That's where it starts. By blaming, we resist reality, we hide and deny. This will only lead to stagnation and suffering.

No fear of the judgement day, to me, means that i) they don't really believe in it, ii) they have misunderstood it. I think it is a huge mistake to see the judgement day (which I find is a misleading name for it) as a point in time where we will be judged according to what we have done. We should instead think of the judgement as something ONGOING that takes place every second. The record is being written RIGHT NOW. But the final consequences will be realized at a point in the future... but there will be no judgment in the sense of weighing evidence for and against. All evidence is in the record, which is completed and closed already at that time. Only the execution of the effect will happen then. The record will provoke the only possible effect (judgement) as per Allah's divine and natural system of reality and balances, in which mercy is included. Even mercy will be fairly given. So it is not wise to dismiss the judgement day as something in the future. It's happening right now. And those who cannot grasp that, will not take heed.... and they will keep playing their sinister games of ego and delusion.

Peace and cheers!

Peace Zulf

I like how you put that! Someone else explained to me as this We are currently taking the test, we will find out whether we passed or failed on judgement day.

hawk99

No fear of the judgement day, to me, means that i) they don't really believe in it, ii) they have misunderstood it. I think it is a huge mistake to see the judgement day (which I find is a misleading name for it) as a point in time where we will be judged according to what we have done. We should instead think of the judgement as something ONGOING that takes place every second. The record is being written RIGHT NOW. But the final consequences will be realized at a point in the future... but there will be no judgment in the sense of weighing evidence for and against. All evidence is in the record, which is completed and closed already at that time. Only the execution of the effect will happen then. The record will provoke the only possible effect (judgement) as per Allah's divine and natural system of reality and balances, in which mercy is included. Even mercy will be fairly given. So it is not wise to dismiss the judgement day as something in the future. It's happening right now. And those who cannot grasp that, will not take heed.... and they will keep playing their sinister games of ego and delusion.

Peace and cheers!

Peace Zulf,
Well said and a keeper for all those who read your explanation.

Peace O0

Bigmo

Peace,

I found another thread regarding facing the Qiblah during prayer but it didn't really answer my question. I read this ayat

2143 And thus we have made you a middle nation that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.

...and remembered this one

2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but
pious is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels,
and the Book, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love
to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer,
and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who upholds the
contact prayer, and who contributes towards purification; and
those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those
who are patient in the face of hardship and adversity and when
in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and these
are the righteous.

Am I to understand this to mean that we don't need to face the Qiblah to pray?

Peace,

Amina

"Am I to understand this to mean that we don't need to face the Qiblah to pray?"

You already answered your question when you said you searched but found no answer. Well verse 2.177 answered your question why you searched but found no answer. Because its not necessary for your salvation. Anything that is needed for you salvation you will find it in the Quran.

uq

Peace all,

Lane's lexicon is somewhat scanty from the letter qaaf onwards, and I couldn't even find "qiblah".

So here are the listed meanings of "qiblah" in Al-Munjid

a direction
the direction of the prays
anything that is opposite something
it is said "he has no qiblah and no dibrah in this affair", that is, "he does not know whence to approach it"
"make your homes a qiblah", , "...opposite "

Az-Zabeedi adds the following definitions in Taaj Al-Arus

the Ka'bah
in the Quranic verse "make your homes a qiblah", it is meant "...masjids"

hawk99

Salaam,
I don't understand why people relate "qiblata" with "salaat", is there any relation mentioned in AlQuraan between these two for us? Please do let me know, thanks.
http//s12.postimage.org/xdc6wq3u5/Facing_Kaaba.jpg
1- Is it really possible for everyone on earth to face so called Kaaba?
2- 2144 asking to face towards alMasjid alHaraam, what are they doing inside so called alMasjid alHaraam?
Can someone please answer me this?
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Peace mmkhan,
Yes it possible for everyone to "face" a single point.

First the Illustration is incorrect because the individual is not "Facing" Mecca.
Let me reillustrate If person A is facing person B and person C stepped between
persons A and B, Person A would still be "facing" person B irregardless of Person C
standing between them.

Does this make sense?

Wherever you go, you shall turn your face (during Salat) towards the Sacred Masjid; wherever you might be, you shall turn your faces (during Salat) towards it. Thus, the people will have no argument against you, except the transgressors among them. Do not fear them, and fear Me instead. I will then perfect My blessings upon you, that you may be guided.

Peace O0

unknownuser

Peace all...

This thread is starting to remind me of a small part in a movie called Collision Course which starred Pat Morita and Jay Leno. Language barriers proved hilarious...like "You have to much mousse in your hair" immediately got a response from Pat as he thought of an actual "moose" in a person's hair. Good movie if you have never seen it.

The term "facing" seems to be expressed or comprehended differently in English versus Arabic. To me, facing means that the front of my body is in a certain direction. Right now as I am at my desk, I am facing northwest-ish. I am also face to face with my computer screen. To me, they mean the same thing.

When I looked it up, I came up with the same results that uq did. I tried Lane's Lexicon, but couldn't make out the characters to save my life (of course, I don't know Arabic).

So I think it is possible to be "facing" something although not directly in front of it.

Peace,

Amina

Mazhar

Peace all...

This thread is starting to remind me of a small part in a movie called Collision Course which starred Pat Morita and Jay Leno. Language barriers proved hilarious...like "You have to much mousse in your hair" immediately got a response from Pat as he thought of an actual "moose" in a person's hair. Good movie if you have never seen it.

The term "facing" seems to be expressed or comprehended differently in English versus Arabic. To me, facing means that the front of my body is in a certain direction. Right now as I am at my desk, I am facing northwest-ish. I am also face to face with my computer screen. To me, they mean the same thing.

When I looked it up, I came up with the same results that uq did. I tried Lane's Lexicon, but couldn't make out the characters to save my life (of course, I don't know Arabic).

So I think it is possible to be "facing" something although not directly in front of it.

Peace,

Amina

The problem in exactly translating the perception of this Arabic word to English is explicitly highlighted by about three red parts. Weldone.

In English "face to face" has restricted meaning, actual presence of another person in direct contact with. This is one aspect of Arabic word, but we do not have exact synonym in English to transcribe when one person is face to face a thing not in direct contact of him but at a far distance with many things present in between the both. Facing nortwest is not included in Arabic word since nothing is in front. When we will use this Arabic word for face to face a direction, the direction will have to be mentioned specifically.

unknownuser

The problem in exactly translating the perception of this Arabic word to English is explicitly highlighted by about three red parts. Weldone.

In English "face to face" has restricted meaning, actual presence of another person in direct contact with. This is one aspect of Arabic word, but we do not have exact synonym in English to transcribe when one person is face to face a thing not in direct contact of him but at a far distance with many things present in between the both. Facing nortwest is not included in Arabic word since nothing is in front. When we will use this Arabic word for face to face a direction, the direction will have to be mentioned specifically.

I see...so then does qiblah mean"facing directly," as if someone is standing right in front of something?

Mazhar

I see...so then does qiblah mean"facing directly," as if someone is standing right in front of something?

Yes, that portrays when we add another object to it "facing directly-----" .

This is indicated in the Episode when on throwing his staff, Musa alahissalam saw it becoming living Cobra, he ran away from the site by turning in opposite direction and he was not looking behind. He seems very knowlegable about Cobra that it can spray poison from distance targeting eyes. Allah the Exalted asked him to come back to the location, face to face with Cobra.

and that "you throw in front your stick".
Thereat, when he realized that it was moving at her own accord, as if that was a Cobra
he turned away in opposite direction with his back towards snake and he did not see behind.
"O Musa! You turn back to the same place facing it directly and do not fear; Indeed you are amongst the protected/secured ones "

Wakas

From http//corpus.quran.com

Verb form 4
(12712) wa-aqbal
(12828 ) aqbaln
(283114) aqbil
(37271) wa-aqbala
(37501) fa-aqbala
(37941) fa-aqbal
(51291) fa-aqbalati
(52251) wa-aqbala
(68301) fa-aqbala

Verb Form 1
Noun
(21428 ) qib'latihimu
(214315) l-qib'lata
(21448 ) qib'latan
(214510) qib'lataka
(214514) qib'latahum
(214518 ) qib'lata
(108712) qib'latan

hawk99

From http//corpus.quran.com

Verb form 4
(12712) wa-aqbal
(12828 ) aqbaln
(283114) aqbil
(37271) wa-aqbala
(37501) fa-aqbala
(37941) fa-aqbal
(51291) fa-aqbalati
(52251) wa-aqbala
(68301) fa-aqbala

Verb Form 1
Noun
(21428 ) qib'latihimu
(214315) l-qib'lata
(21448 ) qib'latan
(214510) qib'lataka
(214514) qib'latahum
(214518 ) qib'lata
(108712) qib'latan

Peace Wakas,

Thanks for the ayats

mmkhan

Peace mmkhan,
Yes it possible for everyone to "face" a single point.

First the Illustration is incorrect because the individual is not "Facing" Mecca.
Let me reillustrate If person A is facing person B and person C stepped between
persons A and B, Person A would still be "facing" person B irregardless of Person C
standing between them.

Does this make sense?

Peace Hawk,

You said it is possible but did not prove it. hmm

In fact that individual IS facing Kaaba in that illustration. I am wondering how did you missed it? What you illustrated is not my question. I wanted to show that earth is round/oval so look at the arrows shown, it is not possible to face in far away direction as you will be pointing straight as red arrow shown and cannot be like the purple arrow shown in that image.

Wherever you go, you shall turn your face (during Salat) towards the Sacred Masjid; wherever you might be, you shall turn your faces (during Salat) towards it. Thus, the people will have no argument against you, except the transgressors among them. Do not fear them, and fear Me instead. I will then perfect My blessings upon you, that you may be guided.

Peace O0

Thanks for the aayat.

You did not actually answer my question. Please re read my question.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

hawk99

Peace mmkhan,

It is important to understand that it does not matter what is between A and B
no matter if it's a person a mountain an ocean or the earth itself we are to face not travel to the kaaba,
we do not have to go around the earth to face the kaaba.
We can actually face thru the earth itself.
This my understanding of facing an object.

I hope this is helpful

Peace O0

mmkhan

Peace mmkhan,

It is important to understand that it does not matter what is between A and B
no matter if it's a person a mountain an ocean or the earth itself we are to face not travel to the kaaba,
we do not have to go around the earth to face the kaaba.
We can actually face thru the earth itself.
This my understanding of facing an object.

I hope this is helpful

Peace O0

Peace Hawk,

I understand that mountains or ocean or anyone else does not matter if they are between a person facing towards Kaaba and Kaaba itself. But as you wrote "thru the earth" Is it really possible? Do you mean, we have to face downwards on earth if we are in North and Kaaba is in South? Is it possible from all locations on earth? hmm

nope I don't think so. What could be the reason Allah ask us to do so, I did not understand any reason behind it.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

hawk99

Peace mmkhan,

Yes thru the earth itself because obstacle B is obstacle B no matter the density.
therefore the Quran is correct when it states

We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.

Another way to look at it is to use the latitude and longitude of point A and B.
For instance I live in Philadelphia which is located at approx. latitude 40.027614
longitude -75.245361
While Mecca is latitude 21.416667 longitude 39.816667

So from Philadelphia to Mecca is roughly 40 minus 21 latitude and 75 minus 39 longitude.
21 is south of 40 and 39 is east of 75
So in this case I would "face" southeast.
Remember I am not moving but facing.

Please correct me if I am wrong
Thanks for you patience O0

mmkhan

Peace mmkhan,

Yes thru the earth itself because obstacle B is obstacle B no matter the density.
therefore the Quran is correct when it states

We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.

Another way to look at it is to use the latitude and longitude of point A and B.
For instance I live in Philadelphia which is located at approx. latitude 40.027614
longitude -75.245361
While Mecca is latitude 21.416667 longitude 39.816667

So from Philadelphia to Mecca is roughly 40 minus 21 latitude and 75 minus 39 longitude.
21 is south of 40 and 39 is east of 75
So in this case I would "face" southeast.
Remember I am not moving but facing.

Please correct me if I am wrong
Thanks for you patience O0

Peace bro,

hypno
I am sorry to disagree with you brother.

2278
2278 And strive for Allah with the striving due to Him. He has chosen you and has not placed upon you in the religion any difficulty. the religion of your father, Abraham. Allah named you ?Muslims? before and in this that the Messenger may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over the people. So establish prayer and give zakah and hold fast to Allah. He is your protector; and excellent is the protector, and excellent is the helper.

Please click here to see other translations.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Zulf

We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.

Perhaps its just me and my limited understanding, but I really cannot see the point in directing one's face in the direction of the kaaba. The only useful thing I can see with that is that it gives those people who wish to stand in groups of rows and lines, to have a direction given, so that there is no discussion how to line up. This would however be a small practical issue... and not a major thing at all as it only relates to that specific group you're in at that moment. If there is another group in another location, you wouldn't see them anyway, so in practicality it doesn't matter how they are lined up, as far as your own line up is concerned.
I also cannot see how those who received the previous scriptures will see the facing of kaaba (2D surface direction) as the truth. If we take the current christians and jews, assuming it is they who are the recipients of previous scriptures, then I really don't think they see the truth in it. If it is not about jews and christians, then who is it about? Shouldn't it be some folks that are around these days? Otherwise, what's the point of the verse? So what's wrong here? Is it not they who are the people referred to, or is the subject matter not at all a geo-spatial facing of some point on the globe (kaaba)?

I suspect that the fault lies, as usual, in our understanding of the arabic words. It certainly wouldn't be the first time. Personally I think that the answer is more general, universal and spiritual, than it is physical, but I don't know what it is.

Just some thoughts
Peace

hawk99

Peace bro,

hypno
I am sorry to disagree with you brother.

2278
2278 And strive for Allah with the striving due to Him. He has chosen you and has not placed upon you in the religion any difficulty. the religion of your father, Abraham. Allah named you Muslims before and in this that the Messenger may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over the people. So establish prayer and give zakah and hold fast to Allah. He is your protector; and excellent is the protector, and excellent is the helper.
Please click here to see other translations.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Peace mmkhan,

Are you saying that you disagree because of the difficulty in understanding what
was replied or do you have other information regarding the subject.

Perhaps its just me and my limited understanding, but I really cannot see the point in directing one's face in the direction of the kaaba. The only useful thing I can see with that is that it gives those people who wish to stand in groups of rows and lines, to have a direction given, so that there is no discussion how to line up. This would however be a small practical issue... and not a major thing at all as it only relates to that specific group you're in at that moment. Just some thoughts
Peace

Peace Zulf,

Your "limited" understanding is correct, this deen is practical not difficult.
Facing is for organizational purposes, like all other rituals. (oops I used the "R" word)
Initially it was a test, to see who would obey the revelation.

... and not a major thing at all as it only relates to that specific group you're in at that moment. If there is another group in another location, you wouldn't see them anyway, so in practicality it doesn't matter how they are lined up, as far as your own line up is concerned.
Just some thoughts
Peace

But Allah has commanded us to have only one qiblah.

Peace O0